TDF 2011 - Stage 11 Spoiler

knedlicky

Pross wrote:

The problem he has without Renshaw is that the other sprinters will ride to stop Cav winning.

This statement indicates to me Cav's great dependence on a lead-out, as I originally postulated.

RichN95 wrote:

I've seen more than one rider (from other teams) say he's an exceptionally good team leader.

I suspect it’s more that Zabel defines the team members’ roles at HTC rather than Cavendish is a ‘leader’. I just can’t see him as such.

RichN95.

knedlicky wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

I've seen more than one rider (from other teams) say he's an exceptionally good team leader.

I suspect it’s more that Zabel defines the team members’ roles at HTC rather than Cavendish is a ‘leader’. I just can’t see him as such.

Well that's what you suspect. Riders who have witnessed him say he's a great leader. I can see it. He's certainly not low on confidence, he's passionate, he knows what he wants, he's charismatic and he delivers. You don't get a team to work so hard for you if you're not a good leader.

greeny12

mididoctors wrote:

greeny12 wrote:

I

Rojas simply doesn't have the speed to beat him in the two properly flat sprint stages remaining, nor is he much of a climber. Same with Greipel.
!

rojas got over the tourmalet to contest the sprint in 2009 came 2nd or third IIRC

similar stage this year over the Aubisque

Yeah, but even if he wins that he only gets 20 points. If Cav wins the two remaining flat sprints he'd have to come second both times (which I don't think he can) just to stay on level terms...

bazbadger

RichN95 wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

I've seen more than one rider (from other teams) say he's an exceptionally good team leader.

I suspect it’s more that Zabel defines the team members’ roles at HTC rather than Cavendish is a ‘leader’. I just can’t see him as such.

Well that's what you suspect. Riders who have witnessed him say he's a great leader. I can see it. He's certainly not low on confidence, he's passionate, he knows what he wants, he's charismatic and he delivers. You don't get a team to work so hard for you if you're not a good leader.

Another trait of a great leader is bestowing praise on your team - which is what Cavendish does consistently. He hasn't automatically got respect - he's had to earn it.

oldwelshman

I thought Cav gave a good interview yesterday and had nothing but praise for Greipel's win. That was a hard finish and Omega rode their nuts off to get rid of CAv and I was surprised Cav got to the finish to contest the sprint so it goes to show he can climb if hes in with a sniff of a win, just has no interest in killing himslef for no good reason on hilly stages.
I was interested in Gilbert's interview where he suggested Omega may ride hard in the Alpe stage to get Cav to finish outside the time limit so he gets green. I think it may have been a bit tongue in cheek but would be fun to see them try I thonk Cav can climb too well for that to happen and he would have a couple of team mates to get him withing limit anyway,plus a few sky boys and a few others that could be paid off to help him

knedlicky

bazbadger wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

I've seen more than one rider (from other teams) say he's an exceptionally good team leader.

I suspect it’s more that Zabel defines the team members’ roles at HTC rather than Cavendish is a ‘leader’. I just can’t see him as such.

Well that's what you suspect. Riders who have witnessed him say he's a great leader. I can see it. He's certainly not low on confidence, he's passionate, he knows what he wants, he's charismatic and he delivers. You don't get a team to work so hard for you if you're not a good leader.

Another trait of a great leader is bestowing praise on your team - which is what Cavendish does consistently. He hasn't automatically got respect - he's had to earn it.

I understand Cavendish isn’t low on confidence, is passionate, and delivers and I know Cavendish praises his team when he wins. But he’s also on record as saying he doesn’t really need a team to win sprints, that what the other team members do is to merely increase the likelihood of him winning from 80% to 99%. Even if true, statements like that sort of diminish the praise he gives when winning.

He’s also said he’s not prepared to help other team members on non-sprint stages. As Barry Hoban observed a year or so ago, this unwillingness includes never taking a turn at the front, even on non-sprint stages when he and other team members have been dropped. That’s not the behaviour of a modern leader.
His derogatory remarks about Greipel’s victories last year, when they were both in the same team, weren’t a sign of a good leader either.

ddraver

He might not during the Tour but he rode some of the hilly classics in support of others this year, ok so neither he nor HTC were any good (MSR excluded) but that was his concession to helping other team mates, Wiggo did the same this year too!

Despite what Tony Martin would like to believe, he is not a genuine GC contender wheras Cav very much is a Green Jersey contender so HTC devote all their energy to that, the rest is just good PR and mind games....

knedlicky

knedlicky wrote:

bazbadger wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

I've seen more than one rider (from other teams) say he's an exceptionally good team leader.

I suspect it’s more that Zabel defines the team members’ roles at HTC rather than Cavendish is a ‘leader’. I just can’t see him as such.

Well that's what you suspect. Riders who have witnessed him say he's a great leader. I can see it. He's certainly not low on confidence, he's passionate, he knows what he wants, he's charismatic and he delivers. You don't get a team to work so hard for you if you're not a good leader.

Another trait of a great leader is bestowing praise on your team - which is what Cavendish does consistently. He hasn't automatically got respect - he's had to earn it.

I understand Cavendish isn’t low on confidence, is passionate, and delivers and I know Cavendish praises his team when he wins. But he’s ... weren’t a sign of a good leader either.

In the film 'Chasing Legends', when Aldag announces who's to be 'road captain' the following day, one time he says Hincapie, another day Rogers, never (in the film) Cavendish.
Admittedly this was a couple of years back, but in live radio inteviews with Zabel (HTC Manager) during yesterday's stage from Saint-Gaudens to Plateau de Beille and during today's stage to Montpellier, Zabel said Eisel was to decide how the team behaved during the stage - again not Cavendish.
Never have I heard Cavendish is leader in the sense of making decisions during a stage; I think Cavendish is just the (welcome) puppet in the team to win the stage, to everyone's (of his team) advantage.
Today, in the after-the-stage interviews, it wasn't Cavendish who praised the helpers rather Renshaw, who made a point of mentioning Pate and Bak.

(As as an aside to the thread topic, I think, not for the first time, Bak's contribution should be highly praised)

RichN95.

knedlicky wrote:

In the film 'Chasing Legends', when Aldag announces who's to be 'road captain' the following day, one time he says Hincapie, another day Rogers, never (in the film) Cavendish.
Admittedly this was a couple of years back, but in live radio inteviews with Zabel (HTC Manager) during yesterday's stage from Saint-Gaudens to Plateau de Beille and during today's stage to Montpellier, Zabel said Eisel was to decide how the team behaved during the stage - again not Cavendish.
Never have I heard Cavendish is leader in the sense of making decisions during a stage; I think Cavendish is just the (welcome) puppet in the team to win the stage, to everyone's (of his team) advantage.
Today, in the after-the-stage interviews, it wasn't Cavendish who praised the helpers rather Renshaw, who made a point of mentioning Pate and Bak.

(As as an aside to the thread topic, I think, not for the first time, Bak's contribution should be highly praised)

Don't confuse 'road captain' with leader. The road captain is a wise old head who bothers with all the details on the road so the leader can concentrate on his own race. The leader doesn't need to be distracted. As an analogy (not a great one), in The Godfather, Marlon Brando was the leader, Robert Duvall was the road captain

The road captain at US Postal was Ekimov. Do you think he was the leader?