Laws of race physics....

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Comments

  • emx
    emx Posts: 164
    Down the Road wrote:
    You haven't missed the break you've ALL been dropped from the race. No-one remembers who came 4th or 5th in ANY race

    I couldn't even tell you who won my own club's road race last year (without looking it up) - not sure what point you are trying to make.

    At club level, the only person who needs to remember their placing is the rider him (her) self. You seem to be confusing the pro-tour with your local 3/4 chipper. Maybe you should be patronising the fellas on the pro-race forum, because you are clearly too awesome for this one...
  • Down the Road
    Down the Road Posts: 949
    You practice in training not in the race and put everyone's safety at risk whilst you try a new skill

    Find a training group to practice with and then sprint when you have a chance of WINNING
    Racing is life - everything else is just waiting
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    edited April 2011
    Down the Road wrote:
    Find a training group to practice with and then sprint when you have a chance of WINNING


    What a c0ck.

    It's very different sprinting in a race than sprinting in a chain gang. Especially if your chaingang is on open roads and the race is on a circuit.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Down the Road wrote:
    Who was 4th at Flanders in 2003 - No looking it up now.

    Only his mum cares as will wiggin's mum in 5 year's time

    Don't know who won flanders in 2003 let alone came 4th.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    This is why people get put off road racing. The OP is written in a trolling unfriendly manner even if a couple of the points are valid, and now we have someone saying that if you aren't going to win, don't try.
  • Down the Road
    Down the Road Posts: 949
    NapoleonD wrote:
    Down the Road wrote:
    Who was 4th at Flanders in 2003 - No looking it up now.

    Only his mum cares as will wiggin's mum in 5 year's time

    Don't know who won flanders in 2003 let alone came 4th.

    Exactly my point
    Racing is life - everything else is just waiting
  • Down the Road
    Down the Road Posts: 949
    NapoleonD wrote:
    This is why people get put off road racing. The OP is written in a trolling unfriendly manner even if a couple of the points are valid, and now we have someone saying that if you aren't going to win, don't try.

    Why enter if you aren't going to try and win?

    The purpose of racing is to attempt to win not to ride around with your mates and do no work and hope to come 20th.

    It's not a break away it is the race If you are not in it get involved and chase it down. then you have a chance of winning.

    Why "TRY" for 30th place?
    Racing is life - everything else is just waiting
  • ga02clr
    ga02clr Posts: 97
    Down the Road out of interest what Cat are you?

    The message seems to be confused. Everyone should enjoy their racing and do the best they can but most of all have fun. Sure I want to win and race accordingly but for me this thread was about trying to get people to engage there brain and race safely rather than in a manner that can hurt both yourself and others.

    If its safe to do so then all means spring for all your worth but I think the point is if you’re in a big group and at the back and really don’t have a cat in hells change of finishing in the points then don’t take any silly risks. By this I mean cutting people up or trying to dive into the corner inside other riders when there is no gap.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    edited April 2011
    Down the Road wrote:
    NapoleonD wrote:
    This is why people get put off road racing. The OP is written in a trolling unfriendly manner even if a couple of the points are valid, and now we have someone saying that if you aren't going to win, don't try.

    Why enter if you aren't going to try and win?

    The purpose of racing is to attempt to win not to ride around with your mates and do no work and hope to come 20th.

    It's not a break away it is the race If you are not in it get involved and chase it down. then you have a chance of winning.

    Why "TRY" for 30th place?

    Because 30th is better than 31st?

    Why do people enter the London Marathon? there's only a couple of people with a chance of winning.

    I enter races to go as hard as I can and do as well as I can as a personal challenge. If I get a result, bonus. Sometimes I'm chuffed if I finish in the group. I may even get dropped but I may end up doing a best ever power output for a particular length of time so I take something out of that. Success means different things to different people.

    I'm pretty damn sure I'm never going to win a race though. But I'm pretty damn sure it's not going to put me off entering more races.

    I personally tell my kids that if they do their best that's great, if they win/do well, fantastic, if not, well, if you enjoyed it carry on!

    Are you Competitive Dad off the Fast Show by any chance? Do you tell your kids/friends not to bother doing something as they only have a slim chance of absolute success?
  • Down the Road
    Down the Road Posts: 949
    Retired now rode as a 2nd cat on this side of the world and in A and B grade on the sunnier opposite side.

    Racing should be fun but winning is the reason we enter (or should be) My first point was that rider safety would be enhanced if those who are out of the race behaved sensibly and not sprint for the line. Have seen far too many crashes involving those with no chance of getting a result.

    reason I was able to see these crashes? I had tried my luck in reducing the size of the race and failed and was just cruising home
    Racing is life - everything else is just waiting
  • emx
    emx Posts: 164
    Down the Road wrote:
    Retired now rode as a 2nd cat on this side of the world and in A and B grade on the sunnier opposite side

    so you are no more qualified than anyone else here - just more opinionated...??
    Down the Road wrote:
    Racing should be fun but winning is the reason we enter (or should be)

    the enjoyment of 'competition' is the reason I enter.
  • Down the Road
    Down the Road Posts: 949
    What qualification would you like

    Have over 15 seasons experience in many races ( at one point 3 a week) including 2 seasons as lead out man for someone else so I do know how to behave at the pointy end when it counts and know how dangerous those sprinting for nowhere can make a very safe sport.

    Opinionated? Yes but still struggle to understand why anyone would turn up and not have a go at winning the race
    Racing is life - everything else is just waiting
  • Crozza
    Crozza Posts: 991
    Down the Road wrote:
    What qualification would you like

    Have over 15 seasons experience in many races ( at one point 3 a week) including 2 seasons as lead out man for someone else so I do know how to behave at the pointy end when it counts and know how dangerous those sprinting for nowhere can make a very safe sport.

    Opinionated? Yes but still struggle to understand why anyone would turn up and not have a go at winning the race

    So when you were leading out your team mate were you also trying to beat him at the same time?
  • CyclingBantam
    CyclingBantam Posts: 1,299
    Down the Road wrote:
    What qualification would you like

    Have over 15 seasons experience in many races ( at one point 3 a week) including 2 seasons as lead out man for someone else so I do know how to behave at the pointy end when it counts and know how dangerous those sprinting for nowhere can make a very safe sport.

    Opinionated? Yes but still struggle to understand why anyone would turn up and not have a go at winning the race

    Not sure if you are just trolling but don't you understand that not everybody can win, however good they are? A race between 30 people has to have someone last unless it is a total dead heat.

    Nobody goes in not wanting to win but many will know it is very unlikely. One minute you are saying people should try to win but then you are saying don't sprint.

    How many times have wee seen a pile up amongst the pro's in a bunch sprint where the guy in 20'th ended up crossing the line first. If that was you you would be beaten by the guys behind you as you would have sat up already.

    Like has already been said, Farrar sprinted (with others) for 15th on Sunday. Does he not know better than you?
  • Slimbods
    Slimbods Posts: 321
    But I'm new, I'm not generally anywhere near the front of the bunch. Yesterdays race there was about 15 of us left in a 40 odd strong field. We were doing through and off for a bit to try and catch the next group up the road, but didn't quite make it. The gallop was fast, I started from the middle and I felt it was good practice. I certainly sorted myself out positionally better than previous efforts, keeping on the edge of the group and nipping onto a wheel of a strong rider.
  • Down the Road
    Down the Road Posts: 949
    Crozza wrote:
    Down the Road wrote:
    What qualification would you like

    Have over 15 seasons experience in many races ( at one point 3 a week) including 2 seasons as lead out man for someone else so I do know how to behave at the pointy end when it counts and know how dangerous those sprinting for nowhere can make a very safe sport.

    Opinionated? Yes but still struggle to understand why anyone would turn up and not have a go at winning the race

    So when you were leading out your team mate were you also trying to beat him at the same time?

    It can be a Team Sport Dickhead!!!! If your team mate wins you split the money. If you and your club mates road as a TEAM you all might get better results over the year
    Racing is life - everything else is just waiting
  • Down the Road
    Down the Road Posts: 949
    CyclingBantam wrote:
    Down the Road wrote:
    What qualification would you like

    Have over 15 seasons experience in many races ( at one point 3 a week) including 2 seasons as lead out man for someone else so I do know how to behave at the pointy end when it counts and know how dangerous those sprinting for nowhere can make a very safe sport.

    Opinionated? Yes but still struggle to understand why anyone would turn up and not have a go at winning the race

    Not sure if you are just trolling but don't you understand that not everybody can win, however good they are? A race between 30 people has to have someone last unless it is a total dead heat.

    Nobody goes in not wanting to win but many will know it is very unlikely. One minute you are saying people should try to win but then you are saying don't sprint.

    How many times have wee seen a pile up amongst the pro's in a bunch sprint where the guy in 20'th ended up crossing the line first. If that was you you would be beaten by the guys behind you as you would have sat up already.

    Like has already been said, Farrar sprinted (with others) for 15th on Sunday. Does he not know better than you?

    UCI points go below 15th and the money for 15th might not be too bad either. PS it is his job and Less said about him LOSING the race the better
    Racing is life - everything else is just waiting
  • MikeWW
    MikeWW Posts: 723
    As much as I'd prefer not to I do agree with Down the Road on the sprinting bit. Whilst it make sense to have a go if there is any chance of grabbing some points by the time you are back to 30th most of the bunch is sat up and it really is a bit pointless/dangerous.
    It doesn't even simulate anything. Having said that I've not seen people doing it and most people seemed to behave fairly sensibly
    However there are plenty of people who race for the fun of it and if the only goal anyone has is to win there are going to be a lot of disappointed riders about.
    My first race last year I was delighted to finish in the bunch, then I was looking to get more to the pointy end and my first top 10 was for me an achievement etc. Realistically I'd have to get very lucky to win but doesn't stop me trying to get with that break which might just stay away
    www.lichfieldccc.org.uk
  • Down the Road
    Down the Road Posts: 949
    Mike,

    That's the attitude I mean.

    You are not content with being "Bunch Fodder". Yes you need luck to win Look at the palmares of Jens Voigt or Jacky Durrand and you will see how lucky you need to be. Never stopped them from getting out there and having a crack
    Racing is life - everything else is just waiting
  • Crozza
    Crozza Posts: 991
    Down the Road wrote:
    Crozza wrote:
    Down the Road wrote:
    What qualification would you like

    Have over 15 seasons experience in many races ( at one point 3 a week) including 2 seasons as lead out man for someone else so I do know how to behave at the pointy end when it counts and know how dangerous those sprinting for nowhere can make a very safe sport.

    Opinionated? Yes but still struggle to understand why anyone would turn up and not have a go at winning the race

    So when you were leading out your team mate were you also trying to beat him at the same time?

    It can be a Team Sport Dickhead!!!! If your team mate wins you split the money. If you and your club mates road as a TEAM you all might get better results over the year

    My point was that you can enter a race other than with the aim of crossing the line in first place, or you can at least have other goals if winning is not realistic for you that day. I had a perfectly safe sprint at the end of a race recently where I came 24th, but most importantly I beat my teammate for the first time ever and had a lot of fun doing it. Dickhead.
  • Down the Road
    Down the Road Posts: 949
    But was he trying?
    Racing is life - everything else is just waiting
  • emx
    emx Posts: 164
    Down the Road wrote:
    What qualification would you like

    Have over 15 seasons experience in many races ( at one point 3 a week) including 2 seasons as lead out man for someone else so I do know how to behave at the pointy end when it counts and know how dangerous those sprinting for nowhere can make a very safe sport.

    Opinionated? Yes but still struggle to understand why anyone would turn up and not have a go at winning the race

    so, 15 seasons later, and with your 'winning is everything' mentality, you still only got a 2nd cat licence...? What went wrong..?

    I rode as a 2nd cat in the early 90s - and now as an ageing 3rd cat vet I still enjoy turning out and getting stuck in from time to time. If people are able to sprint safely for 20th place, let 'em - I still do.
  • Down the Road
    Down the Road Posts: 949
    Lack of Talent basically. Oh and a full time job
    Racing is life - everything else is just waiting
  • emx
    emx Posts: 164
    Down the Road wrote:
    Lack of Talent basically. Oh and a full time job

    at last - you are starting to sound like a proper amateur - and not an ex-pro....
  • GiantMike
    GiantMike Posts: 3,139
    Down the Road wrote:
    Lack of Talent basically. Oh and a full time job

    I have a lack of talent and a full time job too. So I'll keep turning up and racing, even though I know I won't win, but I'll try really hard regardless. I'll also sprint for the line, even if it's just to not be the last across the line.

    Thanks for your advice, but like all advice on the internet, I'll choose to ignore it because I don't think it applies to me. If you had some positive advice about training or race strategy based on your 15 years of top level racing with Team Dickhead, I'd listen.

    But I'm not hearing anything positive.
  • P_Tucker
    P_Tucker Posts: 1,878
    I think the key point is that sprinting in the middle of a bunch is dangerous. I don't think anyone would mind if it wasn't (it's still utterly pointless, but to each his own), but after a few seasons you kinda get tired of watching people get scraped off the road, particularly if it's some other muppet's fault.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,588
    Where are all these sprint pile ups happening? I raced regularly for 7 seasons and the only sprint pile up I saw was caused by a club mate of mine (international rider, 1st cat) sprinting for the win with his head down. Having just started back riding I have been told that standards seem to be lower, mainly as the inexperienced riders are now often fit enough to survive to the end, and that crashes are quite commonplace in circuit races particularly but I have only seen one in the past season.

    The women's series race on Sunday was cancelled following a crash but that occurred mid race - maybe only experienced riders should be allowed to ride at all! :wink:
  • Surfr
    Surfr Posts: 243
    I've ridden 3 crit or circuit races last season and 4 so far this season (a mix if 4th only, 3/4 and 2/3/4 cat races) and all the crashes that I've seen have been mid race on corners or straights nowhere near the finish. Most usually only involving 2 or 3 riders at most.

    The sprint is usually on a straight and wide part of most circuits as far as I can tell (4 different locations experience) and every one I've been in has had the front of the bunch touching 35MPH and the back 1/3 sitting up or just giving their best seated sprint while the mid pack have a go for the final placings. The race is much more spread out at this point due to the speed differentials and it's quite a safe place to be. Much more so than when it was 7 abreast for the mid race going into hairpins!

    Part of the problem is the negative riding which chases down any attempt to split or spread the pack out. This may be due to the escapees not having the legs to go the distance though.

    I always watch the E/1/2 or whatever the higher cat race is and even with fields of 30+ the racing is spread out no more than 2 abreast at all times. Why are the 3/4 packs so bunched up? Still, the vast majority negotiate the corners fine, even on tight cycle specific courses with 180+hairpins, so It can't be that dangerous.
  • MikeWW
    MikeWW Posts: 723
    Cat 3/4 races tend to be a bit negative which does bunch things up(I'm a Cat 4) When someone goes off the front the bunch immediately look to chase them down and then ease up again. Its far better to let someone get away a bit and then bridge across to them-that way you have more of a chance of splitting things up a bit
    www.lichfieldccc.org.uk
  • Down the Road
    Down the Road Posts: 949
    The bunch is not chasing the break down they are REJOINING the race. It is not negative to chase it down It is negative to sit in and hope someone else does it for you.

    If you are stronger then you can try to reduce the field by riding away from those not fast enough to go with you. If a race is 3 or 4 wide you are not going hard enough to line it out. Ever wonder why so few get to the finish in higher cat races with the leaders It is due to the relentless pace put up by those stronger to eliminate the weak
    Racing is life - everything else is just waiting

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