Laws of race physics....
Comments
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Points are also available for each category; more races are E/1/2/3 and 3/4
In theory you could be in a sprint for 20th in the race and end up winning your category.0 -
Don't think so - points are only awarded to top 10, 15 or 20 depending on the category of the race. There are no points for being the first 4th cat if you finish in 16th place in a 2/3/4danieljgreen wrote:Points are also available for each category; more races are E/1/2/3 and 3/4
In theory you could be in a sprint for 20th in the race and end up winning your category.
http://new.britishcycling.org.uk/road/a ... _Explained0 -
There are often cash prizes though for highest 3rd etc0
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Tom BB wrote:P_Tucker wrote:Exactly - any half-decent rider won't contest the sprint the second they realise they have no chance of getting a top 5. Because WGAF who came 6th in the sprint?
If the answer to that is "you", then you need a long hard look in the mirror. Seriously, even the best sprinters c0ck up occasionally and don't get a result - just because you've lost your position at the vital moment doesn't mean you are rubbish - it just means that you might as well sit this particular sprint out because you've already lost.
I'm sure the person who comes 6th in the sprint will be pretty chuffed-they've just scored some points!
Points are pointless. Wins are what matters, top 5s at a push.0 -
P_Tucker wrote:Tom BB wrote:P_Tucker wrote:Exactly - any half-decent rider won't contest the sprint the second they realise they have no chance of getting a top 5. Because WGAF who came 6th in the sprint?
If the answer to that is "you", then you need a long hard look in the mirror. Seriously, even the best sprinters c0ck up occasionally and don't get a result - just because you've lost your position at the vital moment doesn't mean you are rubbish - it just means that you might as well sit this particular sprint out because you've already lost.
I'm sure the person who comes 6th in the sprint will be pretty chuffed-they've just scored some points!
Points are pointless. Wins are what matters, top 5s at a push.
Maybe to you?...0 -
I challenge you to find an Elite/1st cat who would be pleased with 12th place0
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I'm chuffed when I finish in the bunch. Some of us have to accept we are unlikely to win races but it doesn't stop us wanting to get the best possible position. The field would be very small if only those who had a good chance of winning took part. The purpose of a race is to do the best you can (or at least it is for most of us mere mortals!).0
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Envelopes - they matter - not points0
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Pross wrote:I'm chuffed when I finish in the bunch. Some of us have to accept we are unlikely to win races but it doesn't stop us wanting to get the best possible position. The field would be very small if only those who had a good chance of winning took part. The purpose of a race is to do the best you can (or at least it is for most of us mere mortals!).
This!
I have the vo2max of an untrained smoker, the metabolism of a sloth and have a crap right leg. I'm happy with a bunch finish.0 -
Thick Tester wrote:Envelopes - they matter - not points
yeah, I was chuffed to bits with the last fiver I won for 8th place. The money gets spent - the points remain....0 -
Pross wrote:I'm chuffed when I finish in the bunch. Some of us have to accept we are unlikely to win races but it doesn't stop us wanting to get the best possible position. The field would be very small if only those who had a good chance of winning took part. The purpose of a race is to do the best you can (or at least it is for most of us mere mortals!).
Indeed - I have often entered E12s or Premiers with the sole aim of getting a kicking and hoping to get around - however, it doesn't mean theres any material difference between finishing 19th and 20th. If 15 were away I'd have a little sprint for practice, but thats it. Sprinting for 12th in the bunch is utterly pointless - it's an absolute lottery and not indicative of anything other than having the luck to have gaps open in front of you at the right time.0 -
P_Tucker wrote:Pross wrote:I'm chuffed when I finish in the bunch. Some of us have to accept we are unlikely to win races but it doesn't stop us wanting to get the best possible position. The field would be very small if only those who had a good chance of winning took part. The purpose of a race is to do the best you can (or at least it is for most of us mere mortals!).
Indeed - I have often entered E12s or Premiers with the sole aim of getting a kicking and hoping to get around - however, it doesn't mean theres any material difference between finishing 19th and 20th. If 15 were away I'd have a little sprint for practice, but thats it. Sprinting for 12th in the bunch is utterly pointless - it's an absolute lottery and not indicative of anything other than having the luck to have gaps open in front of you at the right time.
thats a very arrogant statement to make. maybe you, as an obvious world class cyclist, wouldn't be chuffed to finish 6th in a premier calendar race and wouldn't even try once you weren't going to romp to victory,but to new racers like me 6th in a 3rd/4th race would be a great achievment and something to be proud of.
it's good though that you come and share your knowledge and give us something to aspire to"Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago0 -
i thought that the initial posting was about the inexperienced racers thereby implying 3/4 cat.
these would be happy to score points imo as surely they are looking to improve to the next cat?
also if my limited understanding is correct dont you have to score a certain number of points to remain in your existing E/1/2 cats. so maybe even the gifted amongst us (your majesty- bowing low) would be happy to tot those points up?how many times have you seen a pro in a tour or similar trying to snatch a few seconds here or there to bump their position in the gc -and they dont care if theyre 15 or 18?-dont think so.Death or Glory- Just another Story0 -
gsk82 wrote:thats a very arrogant statement to make. maybe you, as an obvious world class cyclist, wouldn't be chuffed to finish 6th in a premier calendar race and wouldn't even try once you weren't going to romp to victory,but to new racers like me 6th in a 3rd/4th race would be a great achievment and something to be proud of.
Well, that's not at all what I said, but do feel free to knock down that strawman.
For the record I've yet to finish a Prem. I'm sh!t, but that still doesn't mean I think that sprinting for minor places from the middle of the bunch is a good idea.0 -
P_Tucker wrote:Indeed - I have often entered E12s or Premiers with the sole aim of getting a kicking and hoping to get around - however, it doesn't mean theres any material difference between finishing 19th and 20th. If 15 were away I'd have a little sprint for practice, but thats it. Sprinting for 12th in the bunch is utterly pointless - it's an absolute lottery and not indicative of anything other than having the luck to have gaps open in front of you at the right time.
Two points:
1. There's a big difference between somebody like yourself riding in E12s etc and people riding at 4th cat level though isn't there.....I take your point that its a lottery, but to people racing at the lower end, then getting points is a big deal....even if it is just 1 point for 10th
2. When were you racing Premier Calendars? Which have you raced? I'm just intrigued, thats all.....0 -
I am kind of on the fence on this one. Those saying they want to get the best positions as possible...really? most results sheets only count the placed riders so why don't you just always say you are 11th place? No one will know. I understand for many finishing in the bunch is a target but does it really matter if you are 49th or 50th? And I am not saying this as an elite rider who has done hundreds of races, I am speaking as a recent 3rd cat who has done a handful.
However, I understand some people could want to use it for training, see how there sprint is after a hard race? If they have a PM see what kind of figures?0 -
Tom BB wrote:P_Tucker wrote:Indeed - I have often entered E12s or Premiers with the sole aim of getting a kicking and hoping to get around - however, it doesn't mean theres any material difference between finishing 19th and 20th. If 15 were away I'd have a little sprint for practice, but thats it. Sprinting for 12th in the bunch is utterly pointless - it's an absolute lottery and not indicative of anything other than having the luck to have gaps open in front of you at the right time.
Two points:
1. There's a big difference between somebody like yourself riding in E12s etc and people riding at 4th cat level though isn't there.....I take your point that its a lottery, but to people racing at the lower end, then getting points is a big deal....even if it is just 1 point for 10th
2. When were you racing Premier Calendars? Which have you raced? I'm just intrigued, thats all.....
1. In what sense? Obviously E12s go faster, but the sprint is pretty much the same, albeit a bit safer in the E12 thanks to experience and normally a team or two lining it out. We've all got jobs to go to on Monday, IMHO it's simply not worth the risk, particularly in a 4th cat bunch. Maybe it would be an idea only to award points for the top 3 in 4th cat races - who knows?
2. 2006/07 - Archer GP (I lived in Oxford at the time and it was nearby). I had few illusions that I'd finish, and I was right. Planning to do one this year, depending on how the form is - since they're all up north now, it's a long way to do if I'm not going to last at least 80 miles. And that's if I get in.0 -
I'd argue that Elite races are different in that there are alot more teams, so in theory, not everybody is riding for themselves......
Anyhoo, I'm predominantly a mtber, which means that every place does count
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probably cos theyre not going to sprint then?Death or Glory- Just another Story0
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P_Tucker wrote:Exactly - any half-decent rider won't contest the sprint the second they realise they have no chance of getting a top 5. Because WGAF who came 6th in the sprint?
If the answer to that is "you", then you need a long hard look in the mirrorP_Tucker wrote:Sprinting for 12th in the bunch is utterly pointless"Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago0 -
I would side with Joey - on the fence on this one. I think sprinting for points is fine - after all points are an incentive for plenty of decent riders so why not chase them.
Sprinting for 40th place is a bit different - not many are really sprinting that far back so whilst you can move up 5-6 places pretty easily it doesn't really mean anything - I suppose if there is room then it's not harming anyone.
What do people do if they find themselves in a second group on the road ? I was in an LVRC last year when a dozen or so were out front and I was in a group of about 8 a minute or so behind them - wasn't sure whether the done thing was to contest the finish from the 8 just for fun or if I'd look like an idiot charging off for 13th.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
I was going to enter my first race in a couple of weeks for fun (I'm 40 so no chance of a Pro career now).
Maybe I shouldn't bother as for most people here the "rules" seem more important than enjoying yourself.
If I was racing at Pro level then my attitude would be different but Cat 4 !
...you wonder why people get put off joining clubs and getting involved, etc with this attitude.Tri Coaching
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Tom Butcher wrote:
What do people do if they find themselves in a second group on the road ? I was in an LVRC last year when a dozen or so were out front and I was in a group of about 8 a minute or so behind them - wasn't sure whether the done thing was to contest the finish from the 8 just for fun or if I'd look like an idiot charging off for 13th.
if you're racing, you might as well race to the finish, regardless of who or how many are up the road. Otherwise, you might as well climb off as soon as you realise the lead group aren't gonna come back....0 -
lochindaal wrote:I was going to enter my first race in a couple of weeks for fun (I'm 40 so no chance of a Pro career now).
Maybe I shouldn't bother as for most people here the "rules" seem more important than enjoying yourself.
If I was racing at Pro level then my attitude would be different but Cat 4 !
...you wonder why people get put off joining clubs and getting involved, etc with this attitude.
which attitude? sorry, but I am unsure of which side of the fence you are falling on.0 -
JoeyHalloran wrote:lochindaal wrote:I was going to enter my first race in a couple of weeks for fun (I'm 40 so no chance of a Pro career now).
Maybe I shouldn't bother as for most people here the "rules" seem more important than enjoying yourself.
If I was racing at Pro level then my attitude would be different but Cat 4 !
...you wonder why people get put off joining clubs and getting involved, etc with this attitude.
which attitude? sorry, but I am unsure of which side of the fence you are falling on.
I think he's referring to those who seem to think if you're not going to be in the top 3 you shouldn't bothering sprinting for the finish. Or even racing.
I say get out there and batter yourself and enjoy it. If you want to sprint for 4th place or 40th place - go for it. Just be safe about it and don't cause a crash.0 -
I don't think anyone is, or at least I am definitely not, really saying that there is no point sprinting unless you going to win or get on the podium. Its just that safety in amateur races is important and it becomes more dangerous towards the end, if out of the last corner you are at the back of the field then you aren't going to get a mention on the results sheet. By all means sprint for fun if is safe, but don't take stupid risks with your elbows out, pushing people out the way just to be 46th instead of 47th. That is just what I am saying, I guess it didn't come across very well.
I think races are incredibly fun and I would encourage anyone to join in regardless of fitness or target positions, after all it doesn't matter if you come in first of fiftieth as long as you have a good time doing it, but safety is important. After all how p*ssed off would you be if you were cruising over the line after an attempted breakaway (and thus to tired to sprint) and some guy sprinting to beat you took you out? I imagine pretty p*ssed right?
Sorry for the 'arrogant I am better than you and safer than you at all cycling' tones coming across, its not intentional but I understand it must sounds like quite an arrogant post.0 -
lochindaal wrote:I was going to enter my first race in a couple of weeks for fun (I'm 40 so no chance of a Pro career now).
Maybe I shouldn't bother as for most people here the "rules" seem more important than enjoying yourself.
If I was racing at Pro level then my attitude would be different but Cat 4 !
...you wonder why people get put off joining clubs and getting involved, etc with this attitude.
The point of starting this thread was simple... Try and point out some simple truths about the dynamics of bunch racing. Yes come along and try it but you have got to be open to liistening and learning. It's not a kin free for all where you can do whatever you would out on the road on your own. You have to respect those around you and the effect that your standard of riding may have on others.
Lots of new folk coming in and trying their hand at racing for the 1st time.. Fair play and more than welcome.
However lots of folk are coming into the sport with no idea on what it takes to 'race' as opposed to 'participate' in a RR. The standard of racing in general and this is a shared view amongst a lot of experienced firneds of mine is slipping and getting skecthier which is not good for the sport in general.
If i'm honest the best racing i have seen at grass roots level is always at the South Staffs and Shropshire thursday night league.
Its a weekly handicap, split into small bunches by age and ability, and expertly handicapped so that it almost always comes together on the last lap. Why am i pointing this out ?
Because its the only format that forces folk to push themselves to work together to either try and stay away from the bunch behind or catch the one in front - the net result is that riders get fitter and further themselves.
The vast majority of 3/4 races where a break goes away is not because the chaps in the break are vastly fitter, just because the bunch is Lazy and disorganised.0 -
I say get out there and batter yourself and enjoy it. If you want to sprint for 4th place or 40th place - go for it. Just be safe about it and don't cause a crash.
Exactly, it's a race at the lowest entry level. If I am in last place and want to sprint for second last then why not. It may make the person in 2nd last and myself both think it was all worthwhile and come back for more.
Surely you learn the rules as you progress through the categories and change your riding style to suit.
I played rugby to a good level but if I went and had a bounce game with the club 4th XV (very social) you wouldn't expect them to all have the skills and organisation to play in the same way as the 1st XV.Tri Coaching
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