Best all-round mountain biker - Thinking out loud

bluechair84

Neither does it reflect the kinds of bikes people are buying, or how they ride. I agree that the term AM bike has come full circle to just mean mountain bike. I enter enduros and XC events, and frankly don't stand a chance on my bike! I enjoy slalom and DH, the bike loves it but it just wouldn't touch a similarly skilled rider on a genre specific bike.
If mountain biking is all things to all people, and we are mountain bike riders, what is the event that caters for us? We have to pigeon hole our competitive experiences into disciplines, each of which represents only a small fraction of what we enjoy.

Anonymous

bluechair84 wrote:

what is the event that caters for us?

Why do we want an "event"?
If the all-rounder race series was a reality, then you would be free to enter it.

bluechair84

yeehaamcgee wrote:

bluechair84 wrote:

what is the event that caters for us?

Why do we want an "event"?
If the all-rounder race series was a reality, then you would be free to enter it.

How's that? I've not entered an event for free before.. even when they have heavy advertising and pit tents selling cr@p.

Anonymous

free as in freedom (For the love of.... there's some fricking morons round recently :roll: )
You would have the freedom to enter the race.

Briggo

yeehaamcgee wrote:

free as in freedom (For the love of.... there's some fricking morons round recently :roll: )
You would have the freedom to enter the race.

He could enter the race but it wouldn't be for free...

bluechair84

:shock: ... misread that.

I can see more value in it if any rider is able to enter the series rather than it being filled by pros. Sign me up.

cee

bluechair84 wrote:

:shock: ... misread that.

I can see more value in it if any rider is able to enter the series rather than it being filled by pros. Sign me up.

here you go.

sign yourself up.

these dates.... http://www.orangebikes.co.uk/nofuss/

bluechair84

The enduro DH and Tour of Ben are definatly a thumbs up. Looking into them.

But it's not quite what the OP was proposing.

Shaggy_Dog

yeehaamcgee wrote:

I would love to see the real top-end of professional riders gun it out for an overall win.

Mountain biking is all things to all people, and the current segregation of races into DH, XC, 4X etc doesn't really reflect that.

Bang. Sums my thoughts up nicely

cee

bluechair84 wrote:

The enduro DH and Tour of Ben are definatly a thumbs up. Looking into them.

But it's not quite what the OP was proposing.

except it kind of is...

a series of 3 events...each focussed on a given discipline....overall winner is crowned britains best (unofficial mountain biker...), ok so there is no 4x or trials....but other than that....it is exactly the type of thing that is being discussed here.

sure...different solutions exist...but that doesn't make this solution any less valid!

NatoED

i remember when i started MTBing Steve peat, Rob Warner , JMC (RiP) riding XC and trials on saturday . then DH on Sundays with the same bike. For the record steve wsa national champion XC for 2 years in the mid 90's before going to GT from team MBUK Saracen(?) where he rode a XCpro with the raised chain stay. Rob was on teh same team till giant got him . Rob rode the purple Saracen.

bluechair84

cee wrote:

bluechair84 wrote:

The enduro DH and Tour of Ben are definatly a thumbs up. Looking into them.

But it's not quite what the OP was proposing.

except it kind of is...

a series of 3 events...each focussed on a given discipline....overall winner is crowned britains best (unofficial mountain biker...), ok so there is no 4x or trials....but other than that....it is exactly the type of thing that is being discussed here.

sure...different solutions exist...but that doesn't make this solution any less valid!

The OP was pushing a one bike series though which is what I'm debating (that and saying I'd be more interested in something very open to the public).
And I'm not knocking anyones propositions Cee, I even said I liked the idea of the No Fuss events.

Shaggy_Dog

My original plan was not to organise any new events at all but to use the times and positions published online on the British Cycling website, maybe have a volunteer to act as an unofficial observer at each race to confirm that Mr x is racing on the same bike at XC event B that he was racing on at DH event A the other week.

Realistically all it would take is a webpage with the names of everyone who wishes to compete and one person to vouch for them at each race to confirm that they were using the same bike.

bluechair84

sounds like the most obvious route

Are you building up the LTS? The guy responsible for getting me into biking rode an LTS and I was always a bit in love with it... from atop my Townsend...

Anonymous

I always wanted an LTS too. It was my dream bike, back in the day!

supersonic

And the first bike I know of to use the term "100% anti squat"! Not sure it did though. Seemed to bob a lot AND kickback!

Shaggy_Dog

The LTS will be built up when I've got the cash for the bits I need, I've got some original orange Z1's to go on it or a pair of single crown carbon Manitou Supernovas. Looks cooler with the Manitous but reckon it might turn it into a bit of a barge as they're 127mm travel

njee20

except it kind of is...

a series of 3 events...each focussed on a given discipline....overall winner is crowned britains best (unofficial mountain biker...), ok so there is no 4x or trials....but other than that....it is exactly the type of thing that is being discussed here.

No conventional XC race either, that's more enduro stuff, where courses are likely to be more tame, and longer. Favours the fit people more.

cee

njee20 wrote:

except it kind of is...

a series of 3 events...each focussed on a given discipline....overall winner is crowned britains best (unofficial mountain biker...), ok so there is no 4x or trials....but other than that....it is exactly the type of thing that is being discussed here.

No conventional XC race either, that's more enduro stuff, where courses are likely to be more tame, and longer. Favours the fit people more.

I would say that the 10 event favours the pedallers more than the trail weapons though no?

njee20

Yes, that's what I'm saying, a proper xc race would have more technical stuff than your average enduro, and be shorter, so theres more potential for the DH folk to do well, and less chance for them to lose time.

I wonder how much time Steve Peat would lose to Matt Page in a 10 hour solo!

cee

njee20 wrote:

Yes, that's what I'm saying, a proper xc race would have more technical stuff than your average enduro, and be shorter, so theres more potential for the DH folk to do well, and less chance for them to lose time.

I wonder how much time Steve Peat would lose to Matt Page in a 10 hour solo!

But I wonder how many more runs of the Fort Bill DH steve peat could score over Matt Page!

Thats the whole point....

In 10 hours, I reckon someone like Matt would do....at just under 10 mile laps....maybe 14-15 laps (hardcore)?

I reckon steve peat would do 10 anyway.....

endurance DH? dunno...a couple of years ago someone did 18 runs in 6 hours....steve peat is capable of matching that anyway....Matt Page...I think over that number of laps the strength/fitness ratio would work against him and he would struggle to physically complete 12 runs....

for my money....that makes them about even stevens going into round 3, which both would be good at....

so for me...so far, this somewhat imaginative pro series is doing what it needs to...i.e doesnt over give any one discipline a huge advantage over the other....

I actually reckon as others have said before here that someone from further down the list in the top boys for each discipline would do well.... Joe Barnes maybe?

chemicalali

Sounds just like the 1-2-1 race we had at Hamsterley last September - winner Joe Barnes!




http://www.orangebikes.co.uk/news/view/ ... y_one2one/

njee20

endurance DH? dunno...a couple of years ago someone did 18 runs in 6 hours....steve peat is capable of matching that anyway....Matt Page...I think over that number of laps the strength/fitness ratio would work against him and he would struggle to physically complete 12 runs....

Don't be daft, a 24hr race will be easily as physically demanding as a 6hr DH event, interspersed with reasonable breaks to get carried to the top! Anyway, this has the potential to get back into a personal 'my discipline's better than yours'. Which is silly, particularly when the person being discussed has already contributed to the thread!

Anonymous

njee20 wrote:

Don't be daft, a 24hr race will be easily as physically demanding as a 6hr DH event, interspersed with reasonable breaks to get carried to the top!

Have you tried DH riding for 6 hours? I think you'd be amazed at how physical it is. It's a totally different type of endurance to long distance riding.

njee20 wrote:

Anyway, this has the potential to get back into a personal 'my discipline's better than yours'.

You do seem to be dragging it back that way all the time, yeah. :roll:

supersonic

5 mins DHing buggers me up. The notion that DH riders are unfit slobs who lack training and fitness is total nonsense.

njee20

I never said that, that would be crazy, you've just got to look at any DH riders! I just said that 6 hours intermittently riding DH (considering the rider would be on an XC bike if we were staying true to the format!) is at least on par with a 24 solo.

cee

njee20 wrote:

I never said that, that would be crazy, you've just got to look at any DH riders! I just said that 6 hours intermittently riding DH (considering the rider would be on an XC bike if we were staying true to the format!) is at least on par with a 24 solo.

so are you saying that because someone can ride like matt does over 24 hours, means that they would also be capable of riding DH for 6 hours....

surely thats no different to saying that because someone can ride the fort bill track 18 times in 6 hours would also be able to do a 24 hour race?

generally speaking, the fitness required for the 24 hour race, is completely at odds with the fitness required for the endurance DH race. It's totally targetted, and can actually make perfromance at the non-targetted discipline worse than a general training programme.

it shouldn't be on an xc bike...if it was an xc race bike...the downhillers would be disadvantaged in the DH, whilst the xc'ers would not be given an equipment penalty on the xc component....

it would have to be a middle ground trail, AM, type bike, so the xc'ers have a slightly bigger, less efficient bike for the xc race, and the dh'ers would have a smaller, less huckable bike for the DH.

Anonymous

cee wrote:

it would have to be a middle ground trail, AM, type bike, so the xc'ers have a slightly bigger, less efficient bike for the xc race, and the dh'ers would have a smaller, less huckable bike for the DH.

Very much this.
But trying to have a reasonable discussion with Njee is like trying to tell a tree to stop growing - it won't pay any attention.

Shaggy_Dog

I'd leave bike choice completely down to the racer, inevitably a trail or all-mountain bike will be the most sensible. Besides, one brand's Trail bike is another brand's Freeride bike. To be honest it might be the other way around, most DH pro racers will be more than happy riding an XC bike down a DH track but will need all the help they can get on the XC. XC racers may be fit enough to lug a 35 lb Freeride bike around an XC loop but will need the extra squidge on the DH track due to less upper body strength and a shallower pool of descending talent.

I've avoided getting knee deep into this subject up until now, mostly because the intention of the original post was to come up with potential rules, not to argue over whether DH riders are better than XC riders or whatever.

I have a few mates in the industry who have competed at high level downhill racing, most of them spend the bulk of their training and leisure time riding road bikes and XC on 100-140mm XC-trail bikes, however one or two of these people will push up a steep climb rather than ride everything. I only know a couple of high level XC riders, the majority of their training is done on the road but they have been known to go to uplift days and also actively seek out technical descents during off road training. XC racers have loads of skill, they ride down some pretty crazy descents on carbon hardtails with narrow bars, long stems, steep head angles, skinny tyres and saddles at road height. Even roadies have a lot of guts and skill, hitting tarmac at 60mph wearing lycra hurts a darn sight more than hitting dirt at 15-20mph, been there, done both. I'm not saying they have as much talent as DH riders, just don't underestimate them. Some of the quickest climbers I've ridden with have been DH riders due to the power they can generate, they can't do it for very long though.

*RANT*

There are a load of people on these forums who beat their chests about being "rad" riding trail centres on 160mm bikes with wide bars, 2.35" tyres, dropper seatposts and 50mm stems. These are the people who claim to "not care about climbing", well why would you? You can't buy climbing speed, you have to get fit and that's hard work. You can go and buy an all-mountain bike that will make you faster downhill and give you confidence, but you're hardly self-improving in any area.

Sorry but you are not as rad as the guys who shave their legs and wear one piece lycra skinsuits.

*RANT OVER*

cee

Shaggy_Dog

so whos the rant directed at?

Bike down to rider choice is not a bad idea....as long as we keep the same bike for every race....

I have never said one lot is above the other....just different...

Of course Julien absalon would lay down the law on any of the top downhillers at an xc race....just as i counter...of course greg minaar would lay down the law on any of the top xc riders at a dh race....they better had...or they are in the wrong game!

sure loads of pro xc riders would also lay down the law on a dh track to lots of non-professionals....just as I could perform my professional career better than any of them!

All of my posts have been about potential rules, and perhaps pointing out my thoughts on other peoples proposals....thats a discussion. this is a discussion board....

contrary to your rant....there are some on these forums who beat their chests in defence saying that xc riders are really really 'core honest....and of course they are...

anyone who is any where near competitive in 24hour solo racesares not only rad to the power core....but also a little unhinged, bonkers and mad as a box of frogs playing trumpets. More of that I say.

I do think njee underestimates what riding fort bill for 6 hours (even with the break in the gondola) does to the body.....you won't see any of the WC guys doing anywhere near that number in practice before a race....because it smashes the bejesus out of the body.

The difference is...I do not underestimate what riding a 24hour solo would do to the body....also smash the bejesus out of it.

I own a downhill bike for downhilling and a hardtail for everything else. Trail Centres? no thanks, id rather ride a real moontin.

Cheers c