Tuition fees march

ol\'gregg

It shall remain the same. i've just been told by a fluent welsh speaker in the office my mistake but sod it.

submityournentries

slowslowslow wrote:

Education must accept that there will be cuts there to. Mr Blair spent years encouragiung people to go to university, and now we cannot fund it. If the cuts mean less people going and more people getting jobs and avoiding debt then so be it.

thats such a short sighted view, if we dont fund education for the future we will be full of people who can work in subway, or macdonalds, with zero skills. there are fewer and fewer apprentice places nowerday (my freind in norwich is currently applying to just about every manual labour based apprentice (sparky, plumber, gas) and not getting anywhere).

and as for more people going and getting jobs, where would you propose we go to get jobs? you know of anywhere thats hiring college graduates with 2 or 3 a levels in droves? cause i know i none. last time i checked unemployment was on the rise, so these people are going to go on job seekers allowance. and how does that help pray tell?

whyamihere

submityournentries wrote:

show previous quotes

slowslowslow wrote:

Education must accept that there will be cuts there to. Mr Blair spent years encouragiung people to go to university, and now we cannot fund it. If the cuts mean less people going and more people getting jobs and avoiding debt then so be it.

thats such a short sighted view, if we dont fund education for the future we will be full of people who can work in subway, or macdonalds, with zero skills. there are fewer and fewer apprentice places nowerday (my freind in norwich is currently applying to just about every manual labour based apprentice (sparky, plumber, gas) and not getting anywhere).

and as for more people going and getting jobs, where would you propose we go to get jobs? you know of anywhere thats hiring college graduates with 2 or 3 a levels in droves? cause i know i none. last time i checked unemployment was on the rise, so these people are going to go on job seekers allowance. and how does that help pray tell?

That's pretty much all caused by the expectation for everyone to have a degree...

submityournentries

i agree, but now that we are in a culture where you need a degree to do everything, we are kind of stuck, because that's not going to change in a hurry, so surely we are a bit stuffed?

Gazlar

submityournentries wrote:

i agree, but now that we are in a culture where you need a degree to do everything, we are kind of stuck, because that's not going to change in a hurry, so surely we are a bit stuffed?

But were NOTin a culture where you need a degree to do everything, were just told you need a degree to do everything. Sure the traditional careers are degree lead but then other jobs dont have such boundaries, and hard work and initiative from the bottom rung up can also see you succeed in the old fashioned way, but thats not promoted as much today. One of the best lessons I was given at school was that bus drivers earn roughly as much as a normal teacher, which engaged so many kids in the catchment area of the school I went to, because it gave them the belief that despeite their academic shortcomings, as long as they worked hard, they could have a decent life.

The part about getting a trade apprenticeship is difficult is true, but getting any job at the moment is also hard whether you have a degree or not mainly because there aren't the jobs out there, perhaps doing a college course or something like that is an option? But then there isn't the student funding to do that is there, so why should degrees have loans and subsidies when other useful skills based courses, nvq's etc not?

submityournentries

because NVQs can be done anywhere, and between the ages of 16 and 18, so chances are youll still be living at home. and you can get educational maintenance allowance to do them anyway, which is up to £30 a week.

a degree, well a good one, should be done at the university thats best at it, and the university thats best at it can be anywhere in the county, and so a loan to live off is surely justified?

oh and by being told you need to do a degree to do everything, go to a job interview, 1 person says they have a degree and 1 doesnt, whos gonna get the job? unless the 1 with the degree is a complete spakend, chances are they will, because they have shown that they have enough skills and competence to achieve a formal qualification.

and just out of interest what jobs can you do well in just by hard work? military, shop work maybe, skilled trades? thats not a huge job market right there is it

Anonymous

Gazlar wrote:

The part about getting a trade apprenticeship is difficult is true, but getting any job at the moment is also hard whether you have a degree or not mainly because there aren't the jobs out there

This is very true. It's worth noting however, that, even though it's hard enough to get a job as is, the amount of places offering apprenticeships is even lower than the amount of places that have job openings.
This means those who offer apprenticeships can be as ppicky as they like
When I got mine, I had to sit a 4 hour exam, and take several psychometric, IQ and aptitude tests, before even being considered for an interview. And even in the interview, we were asked almost exclusively technical questions, including questions about technical documents we'd received with the interview invite, to make sure we'd picked up on things.
Tough doesn't even come into it!

submityournentries wrote:

and just out of interest what jobs can you do well in just by hard work? military, shop work maybe, skilled trades? thats not a huge job market right there is it

Everything. If you're good enough at what you do, you rise to the top, degree/qualifications or not. Just ask Alan Sugar, or Richard Branson. They both put much higher importance on aptitude than booklearning.

Gazlar

Yeah NVQ's can be done anywhere, but why 16-18? surely anyone can do NVQ's, If I want to do a college course to earn skills I have to pay the going rate to do that course, thats my argument, why shouldn't uni students have to pay the going rate to study their course if thats what they want to do.

I beg to differ on the degree front, its all dependant on your skills and experiences a degree doesn't guarantee you will get a job over someone else but kids are being told you must have a degree to do well in life and its bull, that is causing more of a two tier society than anything else because kids are feeling abandoned behind the more academically able kids in schools, the message of just work hard in life you'll be ok has gone right out of the window and dont tell me that doesn't happen because it does, My other half whilst training worked as a voluntary mentor for lower ability kids in secondary schools across Wolverhampton and Dudley and was told from the offset to push the fact if they try harder its not too late to be good enough to go to uni whether that was the right thing or wrong thing for them.

With regarding working your way up, Military yes, Retail very much yes as this is a real growing sector in employment skilled trades yes, but what about service industries, manufacture, offices,the all be it dwindling civil service, what percentage of employment do these sectors offer as opposed to academic subjects? I'm not against degrees, but I think that the obsession with pushing them really gets my goat

Gazlar

yeehaamcgee wrote:

rd whether you have a degree or not mainly because there aren't the jobs out there

This is very true. It's worth noting however, that, even though it's hard enough to get a job as is, the amount of places offering apprenticeships is even lower than the amount of places that have job openings.
This means those who offer apprenticeships can be as ppicky as they like
When I got mine, I had to sit a 4 hour exam, and take several psychometric, IQ and aptitude tests, before even being considered for an interview. And even in the interview, we were asked almost exclusively technical questions, including questions about technical documents we'd received with the interview invite, to make sure we'd picked up on things.
Tough doesn't even come into it!
[/quote]

This is very true, enterance to any job is tough, when I applied to train as a train driver I had pschometric, group bourdon tests, mechanical testsand reaction tests plus an interview and a medical. There were over 9,000 applicants for the 6 jobs we had available, but its so tough. I worked my way up though, by the age of 20 I was working in retail management, I trained as a chef but went up the ranks in the pub trade, and then retail by hard work alone, then I found a well paid job as a conductor on the trains, which then lead to me driving. I know its just an example, there was a lot of good fortune involved but I now work 4 days a week and earn double what my other half earns for working every hour under the sun teaching and with a lump of debt behind her.

I sympathise with everyone in the job market at the minute, graduate or not, there is simply not the work at the minute, but don't be afraid to do whatever, roll your sleeves up get stuck in, show willing and theres a ladder there to climb

The Northern Monkey

I went to university and got a degree that i'm not planning on doing anything related to.

The job I have now is pretty well paid and considering all the current job losses and the number of post grad students without jobs i consider myself quite lucky.

However, would i have been able to get this job without a degree.... maybe.. I don't know. Its just nice to have on my CV to be honest!

But, a manager at my previous job has just been told she won't be progressing any further through the company becasue she doesn't have a degree qualification!

Raymondavalon

TBH I think the UK is where the USA was about 10 years back, too many white collared workers and not enough skilled hands on tradesmen

I have a good friend who qualified as a toolmaker then embarked on a Uni degree in IT (Computer Science) as at the time "IT" was the emerging market and paid very well. {He is also has Microsoft and Cisco accreditations on top of his Uni degree )

He has now reverted back to his trade and it's paying better than his last IT job and he said it was difficult to find another IT job with the same pay package after he was paid off.
He's a happy chap indeed, although he does arrive home smelling like a machine shop

Perhaps our youth should look at embarking on a trade opposed to the party'esque life and qualifications that University offers
That way the UK will retain it's manufacturing skills opposed to farming them out to the Far East for a bowl of rice.

The bottom line is that you don't have to go to Uni to "prove" that you're intelligent.

whyamihere

I've spoken to a few friends about this in the past few days. Those of us on hard science, medical and engineering degrees are fairly well united on telling the protesters to feck off and stop whining. The students of the arts are universally complaining.

I'm not sure what that shows, but it shows something.

Anonymous

whyamihere wrote:

I'm not sure what that shows, but it shows something.

Maybe you should have studied sociology

Thewaylander

I'd have sympathy if most of them weren't there for a jolly or there degree was relevant or useful.

Sadly from my time at uni and conversations with friends who also attended uni, this is definately not the case. Many subjects are now degree where they should be profesionally driven qualification (like Accountancy) and there should be no degree and then industry can finance that as they do now.

Sadly we have gotten into a society atttitude that a degree is be all end all. It's not it used to be a stepping stone to research positions

montevideoguy

I personally think that we should look at South Korea's educational system and copy it completely. It hasn't been luck they have transformed from a 3rd world country to being one of the most developed nations in 40 years with large numbers of graduates (with degrees that are actually relevant)
I also think this delusion of saying to kids "it doesn't matter if you're thick as play-dough we can get you a degree in turning a computer on!!" and really push for them to learn vocational trades. Apprenticeships at the moment seem to be a bit of a grey area due to the fact we have lost so many businesses that can offer them so I'd be looking at that (also has the added effect of boosting local economies). At the moment (in Scotland at least) you have enterprise zones with reductions and rebates in things like tax. I'd personally look to abolish tax and rent rates on businesses for first 2 years of existence on provision they take apprentices on and train them. Do that and scale back the number of universities (and the courses that are a complete nonsense with no practical use) and we could get somewhere.

I could be totally wrong though. I don't profess to being an expert on the subject.


As a side note I was pretty amazed you can now get a degree in Lady Gaga (University of South Carolina but is that as bad as the degree in David Beckham we had a few years back?)

slowslowslow

and as for more people going and getting jobs, where would you propose we go to get jobs? you know of anywhere thats hiring college graduates with 2 or 3 a levels in droves? cause i know i none. last time i checked unemployment was on the rise, so these people are going to go on job seekers allowance. and how does that help pray tell

I think you argue against yourself there. If there are fewer and fewer jobs, why bother racking up the debt and doing the degree in the first place. If its never paid back its just taxpayers money down the drain.
And ~I know people who have degrees that have been told they are too over qualified for jobs. It does happen

.blitz

Think it's worth pointing out that the protest march didn't start until after Cash In The Attic had finished

montevideoguy

How I miss Homes under the Hammer...one programme you can't obtain using naughty download sites

Tartanyak

whyamihere wrote:

I've spoken to a few friends about this in the past few days. Those of us on hard science, medical and engineering degrees are fairly well united on telling the protesters to feck off and stop whining. The students of the arts are universally complaining.

I'm not sure what that shows, but it shows something.

I agree. I very much agree.

GO GO BSc!

As for any degree that has 'IT' in the title, they should be dropped from a great height.

Some of the best people I've worked with have no degree. Near as dammit all I've ever worked with it an 'IT' degree have been useless brainless nobodies with no imagination, curiousity or skill. There are such large differences between the Computer Science type degrees and the IT ones. Plus, MS certifications really aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Cisco ones maybe do, but I've no experience to judge with.

I left uni in 2002 with a maths degree. Just at that time there was a huge low in the industry - even more so than now, quite weirdly. Getting a graduate job then in what I wanted to was bloody hard. I have many sympathies for those now who have worthwhile degrees and are trying to get work - even work in a different area.

Saying all of that, I like the entire apprentice thing. It's very useful. Anywhere I've worked I've tried to get graduates in. The problem there is that, when straight out of uni, graduates are still apprentices. They (theoretically) should have learnt how to learn, they just then need training...

What was I ranting about again? I can't remember. My memory's so bad... and I like whittering on about stuff. I could say I like the sound of my own voice, but when I read my writing, it tends to appear in a Tom Selleck-like voice in my head. Not at all like what I sound like...

Anonymous

I dunno. I'd say that something like MS's MCSE or MCSA is an useful indicator that somebody knows a bit about what they're doing, if you're hiring them to look after a windows server setup.
Too many people expect it to mean other thing though, it seems.

Tartanyak

Aaah, I had the MS developer/programmer type certifications in my head - I make stuff, not babysit them. Those certs are more than useless.

Actually, they did have one that was good, but that costed so much it was painful.

If anyone's the level of admin type who shows MSCEs, then it's very rare they'll earn as much as a tradesman unfortunately.

Anonymous

Hmm, not sure about that. My sister used to date a guy who was a systems analyst. He had his MCSE, and was pulling in well over £150K per year.
Generalisation doesn't really work there.

Also, AFAIK, Cisco certifications are completely useless for programmers too, they're more for network installers and admins. Expecting somebody who hold one of them to be a good programmer is like expecting a mechanic to be a good ECU remapper. It's possible they are, but it's very very rare.

Tartanyak

I did say it was rare to earn more I doubt the MSCE was the only thing that made pulling in that much money possible. In fact, I doubt it'd matter much if he lost it.

I didn't make it clear (in fact, I confused it to hell) but yeah, I knew Cisco's certs were for networking hardware.

Balls, I just realising I got MS certs and MCSE mixed up. Any old cert from them could be their MCP stuff - Sorry about all that. Not as retarded as I seem

Anonymous

I think I'm the one who thought you were on about MCSE/MCSAs, actually :oops:
I know nothing of their programmer accreditations.

Tartanyak

My point was: Mleh, rant, mleh.

Northwind

I've never used my degree for anything. * But frankly £25000 or whatever is an absolute bargain for spending 4 years pissed and shagging anything that moves and occasionally things that don't. What would that get you normally, a nice car? Downpayment on a house? Pah.

(* Not entirely true, occasionally I use the employment law part to traumatise a manager or HR monkey. But just for sport, not for profit)

woodnut

Northwind wrote:

(* Not entirely true, occasionally I use the employment law part to traumatise a manager or HR monkey. But just for sport, not for profit)

You see I'd be quite happy to pay higher taxes to fund students to learn useful things like this. Good man.

slowslowslow

Northwind, were you a student now I would ask the Inland Revenue to take a chunk of my tax and put into your bank account. A most useful way of spending it.

Daz555

Cat With No Tail wrote:

My sister just finished her degree at Leeds and has come out with debt of....fuckall. She lived at home while studying, saved money while she was working during her a-levels and continued to work throughout her degree. So it IS possible to do it.

How much were her tuition fees?

cee

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Hmm, not sure about that. My sister used to date a guy who was a systems analyst. He had his MCSE, and was pulling in well over £150K per year.
Generalisation doesn't really work there.

Also, AFAIK, Cisco certifications are completely useless for programmers too, they're more for network installers and admins. Expecting somebody who hold one of them to be a good programmer is like expecting a mechanic to be a good ECU remapper. It's possible they are, but it's very very rare.

I would not expect an MCSE to be a terrific 'programmer' either....seeing as its an infrastructure qualification!

Other MS Certs are available for the dev world...

10 years ago...the MS Cert was a sure fire way of lifting salaries...now...everyone has them..they are easy to pass (multiple choice, braindump etc)...and the difference in quality between any 2 certified professionals can be so vast that the qualification doesn't mean as much any more.

My degree was BEng Software Engineering. I use it everyday.