Students

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  • DCowling
    DCowling Posts: 769
    What I find amazing is that these people are supposed to be the academic elite / our future yet they reason like football hooligans.
    It hardly strengthens their case
  • ketsbaia
    ketsbaia Posts: 1,718
    Anyone watched that Stuart Lee youtube clip yet?

    Watch it.

    If you disagree with what he's saying, you've already lost the argument.

    I support what the students did yesterday, regardless of whether Socialist Worker hi-jacked it or not. Seems like a lot of people on here object to the right to demonstrate. I wonder if you'll still hold that view when they come for you and yours.
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  • cee
    cee Posts: 4,553
    DCowling wrote:
    What I find amazing is that these people are supposed to be the academic elite / our future yet they reason like football hooligans.
    It hardly strengthens their case

    paxman made an interesting statement on newsnight last night....

    he said that the message which the students were trying to deliver...and the debate they said they wanted...had now been dwarfed by the debate over the limits of protest...

    So not only weakening their case...but totally undermining it with a different debate.
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  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    cee wrote:
    DCowling wrote:
    What I find amazing is that these people are supposed to be the academic elite / our future yet they reason like football hooligans.
    It hardly strengthens their case

    paxman made an interesting statement on newsnight last night....

    he said that the message which the students were trying to deliver...and the debate they said they wanted...had now been dwarfed by the debate over the limits of protest...

    So not only weakening their case...but totally undermining it with a different debate.

    Yup. On Radio 4 last night, they had an extract of an interview with a student from Manchester. The question was about whether their methods were correct. (The student replied "yes, in this particular case" (paraphrased), in which case, it would also be apt to tackle them with high-powered hoses.)

    Out of interest, can anyone recall if there were similar (or indeed any) levels of violence during the Tamil protests in Parliamnet Square last year?
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  • DCowling
    DCowling Posts: 769
    ketsbaia wrote:
    Anyone watched that Stuart Lee youtube clip yet?

    Watch it.

    If you disagree with what he's saying, you've already lost the argument.

    I support what the students did yesterday, regardless of whether Socialist Worker hi-jacked it or not. Seems like a lot of people on here object to the right to demonstrate. I wonder if you'll still hold that view when they come for you and yours.

    do not object to their right to demonstrate, unfortunatley all they have managed to demonstrate is their inability to behave like civilsed adults.
    tell me, does the students union have plans to pay for the damage done or will it be funded by others, not their problem really is it, they have drawn attention to what they want regardless of cost.

    p.s. why would they come for me and mine?
  • ketsbaia
    ketsbaia Posts: 1,718
    cjcp wrote:

    Out of interest, can anyone recall if there were similar (or indeed any) levels of violence during the Tamil protests in Parliamnet Square last year?

    Can anyone recall whether anything got done about the Tamils and their plight?
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  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    ketsbaia wrote:
    cjcp wrote:

    Out of interest, can anyone recall if there were similar (or indeed any) levels of violence during the Tamil protests in Parliamnet Square last year?

    Can anyone recall whether anything got done about the Tamils and their plight?

    Violence ain't the way forward, though. The mess outside Millbank this morning was appalling. It makes us look, well, French. :P
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • ketsbaia
    ketsbaia Posts: 1,718
    DCowling wrote:
    p.s. why would they come for me and mine?

    They already have. Unless the current round of cuts won't affect you in any way, shape or form, that is. Which is highly unlikely unless you are a. a banker or b. an MP

    You watched the clip yet?
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  • ketsbaia
    ketsbaia Posts: 1,718
    cjcp wrote:
    ketsbaia wrote:
    cjcp wrote:

    Out of interest, can anyone recall if there were similar (or indeed any) levels of violence during the Tamil protests in Parliamnet Square last year?

    Can anyone recall whether anything got done about the Tamils and their plight?

    Violence ain't the way forward, though. The mess outside Millbank this morning was appalling. It makes us look, well, French. :P

    The mess may have been appalling, but at least you know why it's there.

    Can you remember what the Tamils were demonstrating about?
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  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    I think they have massively furthered their cause by smashing in a few windows. For a start we are all talking about tuition fees now.

    People are too prudish - it is good to smash things up occasionaly, keeps the establishment thinking.
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    ketsbaia wrote:
    cjcp wrote:
    ketsbaia wrote:
    cjcp wrote:

    Out of interest, can anyone recall if there were similar (or indeed any) levels of violence during the Tamil protests in Parliamnet Square last year?

    Can anyone recall whether anything got done about the Tamils and their plight?

    Violence ain't the way forward, though. The mess outside Millbank this morning was appalling. It makes us look, well, French. :P

    The mess may have been appalling, but at least you know why it's there.

    Can you remember what the Tamils were demonstrating about?

    Was it the alleged oppression by the Sri Lankan govt and stuff?

    The mess is there because some hooligans decided it would be a good idea to smash things up. If the SU leaders were describing it as "despicable", then, on their own case, not even they think violence was the way forward.

    Better to try to force a by-election in the constituencies of the MPs who are said to have done a u-turn?
    FCN 2-4.

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    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • DCowling
    DCowling Posts: 769
    ketsbaia wrote:
    DCowling wrote:
    p.s. why would they come for me and mine?

    They already have. Unless the current round of cuts won't affect you in any way, shape or form, that is. Which is highly unlikely unless you are a. a banker or b. an MP

    You watched the clip yet?
    no, must confess I have not watched it yet
    but the cuts are hitting me, ( may be out of a job within the next 2-3mth after spending the last 2mth on reduced wages) BUT I do not feel the urge to go and wreck somebody elses property as that is pointless and futile ( this is probaly because I am an adult and like to take responsibilty for my actions)
    The bold truth is we are in Huge financial difficulties and everyone is going to suffer to some degree, unfortunatley some more than others, However wanton vandalism is not going to change this.
    what would your reaction be if this behaviour came from cuts to benefits for immigrants or those who have never worked in the last ten years
  • lost_in_thought
    lost_in_thought Posts: 10,563
    Actually I think most of us are talking about how they're being idiots and it's not going to be a big impact.

    So yeah, it's been great for them.

    I have no problem with peaceful protest, but violence and 'smashing things up' is completely unnecessary.

    So, Sewinman, when did you last 'smash in a few windows' to get a point across? I only ask because I can't see you doing it.
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  • W1
    W1 Posts: 2,636
    ketsbaia wrote:
    Anyone watched that Stuart Lee youtube clip yet?

    Watch it.

    If you disagree with what he's saying, you've already lost the argument.

    I support what the students did yesterday, regardless of whether Socialist Worker hi-jacked it or not. Seems like a lot of people on here object to the right to demonstrate. I wonder if you'll still hold that view when they come for you and yours.

    No-one has objected to the right to hold the demonstration. They (and I) object to vandalism and violence. Do you agree that violence and vandalism was justified in this case?
  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    Actually I think most of us are talking about how they're being idiots and it's not going to be a big impact.

    So yeah, it's been great for them.

    I have no problem with peaceful protest, but violence and 'smashing things up' is completely unnecessary.

    So, Sewinman, when did you last 'smash in a few windows' to get a point across? I only ask because I can't see you doing it.

    There was plenty on the news yesterday about tuition fees and I doubt it would have been as news-worthy without the Millbank link.

    I have never smashed any windows, but I have yet to feel that passionately about anything. I would not rule it out though.
  • W1
    W1 Posts: 2,636
    Sewinman wrote:
    I think they have massively furthered their cause by smashing in a few windows. For a start we are all talking about tuition fees now.

    People are too prudish - it is good to smash things up occasionaly, keeps the establishment thinking.

    Wrong. They've completely undermined their cause and lost any public sympathy they may have had.

    I wonder how many of the protesters actually understood the proposals (as many on here seemed to do)....
  • ketsbaia
    ketsbaia Posts: 1,718
    DCowling wrote:
    ketsbaia wrote:
    DCowling wrote:
    p.s. why would they come for me and mine?

    They already have. Unless the current round of cuts won't affect you in any way, shape or form, that is. Which is highly unlikely unless you are a. a banker or b. an MP

    You watched the clip yet?
    no, must confess I have not watched it yet
    but the cuts are hitting me, ( may be out of a job within the next 2-3mth after spending the last 2mth on reduced wages) BUT I do not feel the urge to go and wreck somebody elses property as that is pointless and futile ( this is probaly because I am an adult and like to take responsibilty for my actions)
    The bold truth is we are in Huge financial difficulties and everyone is going to suffer to some degree, unfortunatley some more than others, However wanton vandalism is not going to change this.
    what would your reaction be if this behaviour came from cuts to benefits for immigrants or those who have never worked in the last ten years

    I'm sorry to hear you're going to be hugely affected. Genuinely.

    And the fact you won't go out an protest about this means you must have much more patience than I do.

    But I'd also suggest, as the Manic Street Preachers once crassly said, if you tolerate this, then your children will be next.

    Surely there is a line beyond which you won't let anyone cross?
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  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    W1 wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    I think they have massively furthered their cause by smashing in a few windows. For a start we are all talking about tuition fees now.

    People are too prudish - it is good to smash things up occasionaly, keeps the establishment thinking.

    Wrong. They've completely undermined their cause and lost any public sympathy they may have had.

    I wonder how many of the protesters actually understood the proposals (as many on here seemed to do)....

    I think its important to define who you mean when you say "They've completely undermined their cause". From what I understand the people who organised the protest weren't the same that caused the criminal damage.
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  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    W1 wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    I think they have massively furthered their cause by smashing in a few windows. For a start we are all talking about tuition fees now.

    People are too prudish - it is good to smash things up occasionaly, keeps the establishment thinking.

    Wrong. They've completely undermined their cause and lost any public sympathy they may have had.

    I wonder how many of the protesters actually understood the proposals (as many on here seemed to do)....

    They have my sympathy - good for them.
  • jonginge
    jonginge Posts: 5,945
    edited November 2010
    Sewinman wrote:
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    Actually I think most of us are talking about how they're being idiots and it's not going to be a big impact.

    So yeah, it's been great for them.

    I have no problem with peaceful protest, but violence and 'smashing things up' is completely unnecessary.

    So, Sewinman, when did you last 'smash in a few windows' to get a point across? I only ask because I can't see you doing it.

    There was plenty on the news yesterday about tuition fees and I doubt it would have been as news-worthy without the Millbank link.

    I have never smashed any windows, but I have yet to feel that passionately about anything. I would not rule it out though.
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  • lost_in_thought
    lost_in_thought Posts: 10,563
    Sewinman wrote:
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    Actually I think most of us are talking about how they're being idiots and it's not going to be a big impact.

    So yeah, it's been great for them.

    I have no problem with peaceful protest, but violence and 'smashing things up' is completely unnecessary.

    So, Sewinman, when did you last 'smash in a few windows' to get a point across? I only ask because I can't see you doing it.

    There was plenty on the news yesterday about tuition fees and I doubt it would have been as news-worthy without the Millbank link.

    I have never smashed any windows, but I have yet to feel that passionately about anything. I would not rule it out though.

    My views of the Beeb's website showed mostly information about the violence, disruption and general idiocy, and not in a positive light.

    It took a wee bit of digging to find out why they were actually smashing up someone else's building.

    And I sincerely doubt any of the yobs doing the vandalism etc felt passionately about it, they were just out for some casual violence now the police are cracking down on football matches.
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  • ketsbaia
    ketsbaia Posts: 1,718
    W1 wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    I think they have massively furthered their cause by smashing in a few windows. For a start we are all talking about tuition fees now.

    People are too prudish - it is good to smash things up occasionaly, keeps the establishment thinking.

    Wrong. They've completely undermined their cause and lost any public sympathy they may have had.

    I wonder how many of the protesters actually understood the proposals (as many on here seemed to do)....

    Ha. Wondered how long it would be. Busy are we today?

    Tell me, how much sympathy did you have with them before yesterday? Let me guess.

    I have way more respect for students now than I did before as I direct consequence of yesterday's actions.
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  • lost_in_thought
    lost_in_thought Posts: 10,563
    ketsbaia wrote:
    W1 wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    I think they have massively furthered their cause by smashing in a few windows. For a start we are all talking about tuition fees now.

    People are too prudish - it is good to smash things up occasionaly, keeps the establishment thinking.

    Wrong. They've completely undermined their cause and lost any public sympathy they may have had.

    I wonder how many of the protesters actually understood the proposals (as many on here seemed to do)....

    Ha. Wondered how long it would be. Busy are we today?

    Tell me, how much sympathy did you have with them before yesterday? Let me guess.

    I have way more respect for students now than I did before as I direct consequence of yesterday's actions.

    Seriously? Or are you just trying to make a point?

    If I went and smashed up your car because I'm angry about your support for these yobs, would you respect me?
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  • ketsbaia
    ketsbaia Posts: 1,718
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    ketsbaia wrote:
    W1 wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    I think they have massively furthered their cause by smashing in a few windows. For a start we are all talking about tuition fees now.

    People are too prudish - it is good to smash things up occasionaly, keeps the establishment thinking.

    Wrong. They've completely undermined their cause and lost any public sympathy they may have had.

    I wonder how many of the protesters actually understood the proposals (as many on here seemed to do)....

    Ha. Wondered how long it would be. Busy are we today?

    Tell me, how much sympathy did you have with them before yesterday? Let me guess.

    I have way more respect for students now than I did before as I direct consequence of yesterday's actions.

    Seriously? Or are you just trying to make a point?

    If I went and smashed up your car because I'm angry about your support for these yobs, would you respect me?

    Definitely. It'd show you cared about something so passionately you were prepared to risk the wrath of the law. I'd take my hat off to you as I contacted the insurance company.
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  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    ketsbaia wrote:
    I have way more respect for students now than I did before as I direct consequence of yesterday's actions.

    +1
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,408
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    Actually I think most of us are talking about how they're being idiots and it's not going to be a big impact.

    So yeah, it's been great for them.

    I have no problem with peaceful protest, but violence and 'smashing things up' is completely unnecessary.

    So, Sewinman, when did you last 'smash in a few windows' to get a point across? I only ask because I can't see you doing it.

    The president of the NUS was pretty clear that he didn't want anything to do with vandalism, and thought the actions had harmed his cause, when interviewed both yesterday and this morning on BBC Breakfast. Based on the viewers comments that were read out (although obviously they aren't necessarily representative of the general population), I'd agree with him.
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  • W1
    W1 Posts: 2,636
    notsoblue wrote:
    W1 wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    I think they have massively furthered their cause by smashing in a few windows. For a start we are all talking about tuition fees now.

    People are too prudish - it is good to smash things up occasionaly, keeps the establishment thinking.

    Wrong. They've completely undermined their cause and lost any public sympathy they may have had.

    I wonder how many of the protesters actually understood the proposals (as many on here seemed to do)....

    I think its important to define who you mean when you say "They've completely undermined their cause". From what I understand the people who organised the protest weren't the same that caused the criminal damage.

    And that's the problem. No-one can differentiate between those with a legitimate concern tand those who just wanted an excuse to be a yob. They are now all rolled into "students".
  • ketsbaia
    ketsbaia Posts: 1,718
    rjsterry wrote:
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    Actually I think most of us are talking about how they're being idiots and it's not going to be a big impact.

    So yeah, it's been great for them.

    I have no problem with peaceful protest, but violence and 'smashing things up' is completely unnecessary.

    So, Sewinman, when did you last 'smash in a few windows' to get a point across? I only ask because I can't see you doing it.

    The president of the NUS was pretty clear that he didn't want anything to do with vandalism, and thought the actions had harmed his cause, when interviewed both yesterday and this morning on BBC Breakfast. Based on the viewers comments that were read out (although obviously they aren't necessarily representative of the general population), I'd agree with him.

    I disagree. He has to say that, otherwise he'll be pilloried.

    Secretly, I bet he's delighted with the coverage the demonstration got. And rightly so. Somebody somewhere has to stand up to this unrepresentative government. I hope this is only the start.
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  • lost_in_thought
    lost_in_thought Posts: 10,563
    ketsbaia wrote:
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    ketsbaia wrote:
    W1 wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    I think they have massively furthered their cause by smashing in a few windows. For a start we are all talking about tuition fees now.

    People are too prudish - it is good to smash things up occasionaly, keeps the establishment thinking.

    Wrong. They've completely undermined their cause and lost any public sympathy they may have had.

    I wonder how many of the protesters actually understood the proposals (as many on here seemed to do)....

    Ha. Wondered how long it would be. Busy are we today?

    Tell me, how much sympathy did you have with them before yesterday? Let me guess.

    I have way more respect for students now than I did before as I direct consequence of yesterday's actions.

    Seriously? Or are you just trying to make a point?

    If I went and smashed up your car because I'm angry about your support for these yobs, would you respect me?

    Definitely. It'd show you cared about something so passionately you were prepared to risk the wrath of the law. I'd take my hat off to you as I contacted the insurance company.

    :lol:

    I don't believe you for a second.

    *Goes out to buy sledgehammer.
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  • W1
    W1 Posts: 2,636
    ketsbaia wrote:
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    ketsbaia wrote:
    W1 wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    I think they have massively furthered their cause by smashing in a few windows. For a start we are all talking about tuition fees now.

    People are too prudish - it is good to smash things up occasionaly, keeps the establishment thinking.

    Wrong. They've completely undermined their cause and lost any public sympathy they may have had.

    I wonder how many of the protesters actually understood the proposals (as many on here seemed to do)....

    Ha. Wondered how long it would be. Busy are we today?

    Tell me, how much sympathy did you have with them before yesterday? Let me guess.

    I have way more respect for students now than I did before as I direct consequence of yesterday's actions.

    Seriously? Or are you just trying to make a point?

    If I went and smashed up your car because I'm angry about your support for these yobs, would you respect me?

    Definitely. It'd show you cared about something so passionately you were prepared to risk the wrath of the law. I'd take my hat off to you as I contacted the insurance company.

    Cared passionately? Or just wanted to behave like a yob.

    If you think that to passionately care about something you need to be violent and destructive then I pity you.

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