Students

Sewinman

lost_in_thought wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

If I understand DDD correctly - I don't think he is saying you can buy your place at Oxbridge, but that those from a poorer background (but clever enough to get in) may be excluded by the higher fees that will be in place in future. Seems pretty spot on to me.

How did you get that from 'You got to go because you and yours could afford it.'?

I screened that out - perhaps I should have written - "What DDD was trying to say is..."

rjsterry

Waddlie wrote:

Eh? Put yourself in the copper's situation and tell me how you would be holding the baton if you needed to keep people away or protect yourself from being assaulted.

At the risk of over analysing a single photo, I don't think the student being pushed backwards is threatening to assault anyone. It was more of a general comment, but in that photo, there's only one person brandishing a weapon. It's just a personal observation, but policing of protests is frequently criticised for being heavy-handed. Rather too frequently for it to be an entirely unfair accusation.

will3

Sewinman wrote:

If I understand DDD correctly - I don't think he is saying you can buy your place at Oxbridge, but that those from a poorer background (but clever enough to get in) may be excluded by the higher fees that will be in place in future. Seems pretty spot on to me.

I have to admit I'm not so good on the details, but as I understand it, you don't have to pay the fees up front - more a loan style thing that you pay after, once you're reaping the benefit of the education you've borrowed money to pay for.

If so, from a strictly practical POV, it doesn't matter a toss how much money your parents earned does it?

Added to which we may find that people start to do a return on investment calculation on their university course and hence may find we have fewer fully qualified hairdressers* on jobseekers allowance.

*"There are around 150,000 students on hair and beauty courses, which is similar to the number of hairdressers in the UK. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8284626.stm

jzed

DonDaddyD wrote:

W1 wrote:

What a crass load of presumptive ball-cocks.

The thing is, if you actually thought about what I said (rather than simply being reactive) you'd actually realise that I agree with you in many respects.

Where did I say there was no right to protest?

Let me make this one absolutely clear for you.

I don't think the increases to University tuition fees are fair or right.

I think it will further disadvantage the poorer people who want to aspire.

I think that a protest on this is the right thing to do.

Unless things have changed majorly since I went to uni (and pretty sure they haven't much) - those from families with low income can apply for non-repayable assistance towards the fees - basically means testing. You can then get a student loan which you repay when your in work. I came from a poor background and was in no way disadvantaged. If the fees had been higher, then I still would have used a loan to pay for them as I would have worked out that the benefit outweighs the costs.

jzed

DonDaddyD wrote:

W1 wrote:

What a crass load of presumptive ball-cocks.

The thing is, if you actually thought about what I said (rather than simply being reactive) you'd actually realise that I agree with you in many respects.

Where did I say there was no right to protest?

Let me make this one absolutely clear for you.

I don't think the increases to University tuition fees are fair or right.

I think it will further disadvantage the poorer people who want to aspire.

I think that a protest on this is the right thing to do.

Unless things have changed majorly since I went to uni (and pretty sure they haven't much) - those from families with low income can apply for non-repayable assistance towards the fees - basically means testing. You can them get a student loan which you repay when your in work. I came from a poor background and was in no way disadvantaged. If the fees had been higher, then I still would have used a loan to pay for them as I would have worked out that the benefit outweighs the costs.

DonDaddyD

soundninjauk wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

You got to go because you and yours could afford it.

Brilliant.

I didn't go to Oxford or Cambridge, but my brother's there right now. So yes I could afford university, but I didn't magically end up at Oxbridge. Could it be that's because going there requires you to be something other than capable of acquiring a student loan?

He worked extremely hard to get in there, and I know he's working extremely hard while he is there. So feel free to mock those doing Media Studies at a former Polytechnic if you must, but I wouldn't try Oxbridge students if I were you. Chances they'll mock you back in a much more witty and intelligent manner.

I'm sorry, I though I was i defending students...

Is this one of those threads where I must e-battle the entire forum. Hold I'll just get my special keybaord out...

OK to begin all students go to Uni because they pass some sort of enterance requirement. Different Uni's overall cost are ultimately different. I paid £37 a week for my rent in a 4 bedroom house in Derby in the City centre when i went. Try finding those prices somewhere similar in London or deeper South.

Oh and I doubt the Oxbridge students would be able to take me on if they don't read or listen to the entire discussion as you have so masterfully demonstrated.

waddlie

Uh-oh, he's broken out the real names again.

greg66_tri_v2.0

DonDaddyD wrote:

Now, look LiT, Olivia, I'll afford you this. You are an extremely clever and intelligent girl. I've said that to you in person in a drunken slur and you said you don't find black men attractive, I still think you were lying but we bonded. I can't fault you. You know this.

DDD< you've *got* to get over this unrequited case of having the gigantic horn for LiT. It's clouding your judgment, dude, and making you antagonistic towards her. Like the boy in the playground who keeps hitting the girl he really likes.

I guess life is easier when all you have to worry about is whether Superman and Batman could beat Kahless in a Klingon bird of prey in a fight. With Sharktopus refereeing.

W1

Greg66 wrote:

I guess life is easier when all you have to worry about is whether Superman and Batman could beat Kahless in a Klingon bird of prey in a fight. With Sharktopus refereeing.

Respect. Destroyed.

UndercoverElephant

lost_in_thought wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

If I understand DDD correctly - I don't think he is saying you can buy your place at Oxbridge, but that those from a poorer background (but clever enough to get in) may be excluded by the higher fees that will be in place in future. Seems pretty spot on to me.

How did you get that from 'You got to go because you and yours could afford it.'?

He does have a point though. In 2006, students at fee-paying schools made up 43.4% of those selected for places at Oxford University and 38% of those granted places at Cambridge University, although such students made up only 7% of the school population.

Whilst you may say that Oxbridge is elitist in an intellectual sense alone, I'm not sure that the relative performances in exams of independent vs. state schools shows such a stark contrast. In fact, research carried out by the University of Warwick in 2002 suggested that a student educated at an independent school has an 8% lower chance of getting a first or an upper second degree than a state school pupil who enters university with the same A-level grades.

DonDaddyD

W1 wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

If I understand DDD correctly - I don't think he is saying you can buy your place at Oxbridge, but that those from a poorer background (but clever enough to get in) may be excluded by the higher fees that will be in place in future. Seems pretty spot on to me.

The poor don't have to pay. It's the middle classes - those who can afford it - who will take the hit. I'm surprised DDD isn't jumping up and down with glee at the thought of it.

Why would I?

waddlie

rjsterry wrote:

Waddlie wrote:

Eh? Put yourself in the copper's situation and tell me how you would be holding the baton if you needed to keep people away or protect yourself from being assaulted.

At the risk of over analysing a single photo, I don't think the student being pushed backwards is threatening to assault anyone. It was more of a general comment, but in that photo, there's only one person brandishing a weapon. It's just a personal observation, but policing of protests is frequently criticised for being heavy-handed. Rather too frequently for it to be an entirely unfair accusation.

In all fairness, it's not the coppers who are setting fire to stuff or breaking windows. There are people walking round wih gas masks on. The copper in the photo has limited PPE - no shield or helmet, possibly a stab vest at best. Can you tell me what's in the right hand of the guy in the photo? You quite sure only one person is brandishing a weapon?

W1

DonDaddyD wrote:

W1 wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

If I understand DDD correctly - I don't think he is saying you can buy your place at Oxbridge, but that those from a poorer background (but clever enough to get in) may be excluded by the higher fees that will be in place in future. Seems pretty spot on to me.

The poor don't have to pay. It's the middle classes - those who can afford it - who will take the hit. I'm surprised DDD isn't jumping up and down with glee at the thought of it.

Why would I?

Because in doing so it protects the "poor" - whom you have expressed a strong defensive streak for.

You're getting in a rage about the "poor" being disadvantaged when in fact the plans in place are designed to prevent that happening.

soundninjauk

DonDaddyD wrote:

Is this one of those threads where I must e-battle the entire forum. Hold I'll just get my special keybaord out...

I'm now imagining this thread to be like something out of Scott Pilgrim vs The World. I must say, it's an improvement.

DonDaddyD wrote:

Different Uni's overall cost are ultimately different. I paid £37 a week for my rent in a 4 bedroom house in Derby in the City centre when i went. Try finding those prices somewhere similar in London or deeper South.

I went to university in Lancaster, and now live in London. So yes, I've noticed the slight price differential. And yes, I could afford uni up north, and I can afford to live in London now. I now am genuinely concerned that I will not be able to afford to send any children I may have in the future. I am epically middle class, and I strongly suspect that I will appear right in the middle between 'can't afford so get's govt. help' and 'so rich I don't give a crap'.

So I do suspect I agree with you on this, so sorry to be so aggressive. To be honest, I mainly took offence to the part where you said that getting into a good university was just the question of affording it, as I know second hand that it absolutely is not. It does sound like that'll be a big part of going to a good institution in the future though...

Specialized Needs

zanes wrote:

Specialized Needs wrote:

Shame the building they are beseiging only contains the winding down Conservative Campaign HQ (1 floor of the building), and not the main HQ :roll:

So, great for the other inhabitants of the building - like Animal Defenders International, the Audit Commission, the Specialist Schools Trust and various Ombudsmen offices!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservati ... adquarters ?

Yup. 30 Millbank. Not Millbank Tower (which is in the same complex).

Seems to have initially stumped some of the protesters who smashed the windows and foyer of the tower, setting off fireworks in the lift shafts and sabotaging the fire alarm system, before realising that they wanted next door :roll:

DonDaddyD

Greg66 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Now, look LiT, Olivia, I'll afford you this. You are an extremely clever and intelligent girl. I've said that to you in person in a drunken slur and you said you don't find black men attractive, I still think you were lying but we bonded. I can't fault you. You know this.

DDD< you've *got* to get over this unrequited case of having the gigantic horn for LiT. It's clouding your judgment, dude, and making you antagonistic towards her. Like the boy in the playground who keeps hitting the girl he really likes.

I guess life is easier when all you have to worry about is whether Superman and Batman could beat Kahless in a Klingon bird of prey in a fight. With Sharktopus refereeing.

It was my very manly way of being nice and paying a complement where I may have initially insulted. I also attempted to make the discussion lighter hearted. she is an intelligent girl, she knows this. Relating to Dizzie Rascal on a lifestyle level... can you do that?

Secondly. Superman post crisis or pre crisis. Dick Drake or Bruce Wayne Batman. B'rel Bird of Prey? The cloak wouldn't work Superman could see it but the deciding factor is whether Batman has prep time? Oh how does Sharktopus survive in space?

Coach H

Specialized Needs wrote:

zanes wrote:

Specialized Needs wrote:

Shame the building they are beseiging only contains the winding down Conservative Campaign HQ (1 floor of the building), and not the main HQ :roll:

So, great for the other inhabitants of the building - like Animal Defenders International, the Audit Commission, the Specialist Schools Trust and various Ombudsmen offices!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservati ... adquarters ?

Yup. 30 Millbank. Not Millbank Tower (which is in the same complex).

Seems to have initially stumped some of the protesters who smashed the windows and foyer of the tower, setting off fireworks in the lift shafts and sabotaging the fire alarm system, before realising that they wanted next door :roll:

University education for you

rjsterry

lost_in_thought wrote:

I got in because I was clever enough to pass the exams. All the money in all the world can't get you in to Oxford if you're not clever enough.

Pffft. People have been buying their way onto courses for years LiT, especially overseas (non-EU) students whose fees aren't subsidised. There were certainly a handful on my course, who weren't really up to it, yet somehow they still managed to scrape through years one and two (by year three, the fees had been collected, so they tended to be allowed to drop out then).

whyamihere

Even if I'd wanted to go, I was far too busy studying for my degree and going for lectures to waltz off down to London today.

I saw the group waiting for the coaches at my uni though, as I blearily wandered in to my first session. Art students, every one of them.

zanes

Specialized Needs wrote:

zanes wrote:

Specialized Needs wrote:

Shame the building they are beseiging only contains the winding down Conservative Campaign HQ (1 floor of the building), and not the main HQ :roll:

So, great for the other inhabitants of the building - like Animal Defenders International, the Audit Commission, the Specialist Schools Trust and various Ombudsmen offices!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservati ... adquarters ?

Yup. 30 Millbank. Not Millbank Tower (which is in the same complex).

Seems to have initially stumped some of the protesters who smashed the windows and foyer of the tower, setting off fireworks in the lift shafts and sabotaging the fire alarm system, before realising that they wanted next door :roll:

Ah, didn't realise they'd been next door too...currently on Sky News everyone appears to be outside 30 Millbank, which *is* CCHQ. And has sustained rather a lot of damage, by the looks of things.

Entirely predictable that this sort of thing would happen though. Which is what I thought when our SU was trying to recruit people onto buses to go down there today.

soundninjauk

Coach H wrote:

Specialized Needs wrote:

zanes wrote:

Specialized Needs wrote:

Shame the building they are beseiging only contains the winding down Conservative Campaign HQ (1 floor of the building), and not the main HQ :roll:

So, great for the other inhabitants of the building - like Animal Defenders International, the Audit Commission, the Specialist Schools Trust and various Ombudsmen offices!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservati ... adquarters ?

Yup. 30 Millbank. Not Millbank Tower (which is in the same complex).

Seems to have initially stumped some of the protesters who smashed the windows and foyer of the tower, setting off fireworks in the lift shafts and sabotaging the fire alarm system, before realising that they wanted next door :roll:

University education for you

Probably doing Media Studies.

W1

zanes wrote:

Specialized Needs wrote:

zanes wrote:

Specialized Needs wrote:

Shame the building they are beseiging only contains the winding down Conservative Campaign HQ (1 floor of the building), and not the main HQ :roll:

So, great for the other inhabitants of the building - like Animal Defenders International, the Audit Commission, the Specialist Schools Trust and various Ombudsmen offices!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservati ... adquarters ?

Yup. 30 Millbank. Not Millbank Tower (which is in the same complex).

Seems to have initially stumped some of the protesters who smashed the windows and foyer of the tower, setting off fireworks in the lift shafts and sabotaging the fire alarm system, before realising that they wanted next door :roll:

Ah, didn't realise they'd been next door too...currently on Sky News everyone appears to be outside 30 Millbank, which *is* CCHQ. And has sustained rather a lot of damage, by the looks of things.

That'll help the deficit.

Idiots.

Clever Pun

DonDaddyD wrote:

However, Ms Kerry Stacey living at flat 25 of a high rise block of flats, with the lift that doesn't work and the stair case that smells of pee. I'm not seeing you relating to or identifying with her, her life and constraints on her life all that well. She has a kid as intelligent as you. For that kid to get out of the social decay that is the Chatsworth Estate a degree may be the only outlet. But she is priced out of it, that's what I take issue with. There are other examples that one a little extreme.

You might be able to relate to Kerry, you may know some chavs, stranger things in the Universe are certainly possible. And if that is the case I'll hold my hands up reach for the ketchup and eat my chip.

the fees are done as a loan right? so if the kid.. I'll call her chardonay(sic). If Chardonay is smart enough as you say, chances are she'll get a good job and be able to repay the loans easily enough... might take a few years but then has the rest of her life with a fruitful career

how is that priced out?


and normality is resumed

zanes

soundninjauk wrote:

Probably doing Media Studies.

Be more worried if the ones that went to the wrong place were studying politics tbh

jonginge

Blimey! Pop away for a quick meeting and all hell breaks loose.

rjsterry

Waddlie wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Waddlie wrote:

Eh? Put yourself in the copper's situation and tell me how you would be holding the baton if you needed to keep people away or protect yourself from being assaulted.

At the risk of over analysing a single photo, I don't think the student being pushed backwards is threatening to assault anyone. It was more of a general comment, but in that photo, there's only one person brandishing a weapon. It's just a personal observation, but policing of protests is frequently criticised for being heavy-handed. Rather too frequently for it to be an entirely unfair accusation.

In all fairness, it's not the coppers who are setting fire to stuff or breaking windows. There are people walking round wih gas masks on. The copper in the photo has limited PPE - no shield or helmet, possibly a stab vest at best. Can you tell me what's in the right hand of the guy in the photo? You quite sure only one person is brandishing a weapon?

Like I said, at the risk of over-analysing a single photo. It may well be a proportionate response to the situation. To rephrase the other more general point, there do seem to be a small number in the police service who don't hold back when perhaps they should.

jzed

Wonder whether cycling through a swarm of students will be easier than through the Millbank WoW?

DonDaddyD

W1 wrote:

Because in doing so it protects the "poor" - whom you have expressed a strong defensive streak for.

You're getting in a rage about the "poor" being disadvantaged when in fact the plans in place are designed to prevent that happening.

That's too simplisitic, an assumption at best.

soundninjauk wrote:

I'm now imagining this thread to be like something out of Scott Pilgrim vs The World. I must say, it's an improvement.

Yep. Just an e-battle. Nothing more nothing less. When the computer is off nomality returns and you realise none of it really matters. Fun though.

I now am genuinely concerned that I will not be able to afford to send any children I may have in the future.

Then we share common ground. I suspect I won't be getting Government help.

I mainly took offence to the part where you said that getting into a good university was just the question of affording it, as I know second hand that it absolutely is not. It does sound like that'll be a big part of going to a good institution in the future though...

I suspect it will be.

When I went to college there were some really talented and intelligent people who didn't want to go because they didn't want to get lumbered with the debt. This was back then. At £9000 a year plus any bank loans, overdraft, credit cards and sometimes you do need some of them I'm not seeing that as any more appealing. Of course of my friends whose parents could afford the tuition and accomodation, they went with or without loans - didn't really matter to them.

CXXC

is it like this at the morpeth on a friday night?!?!

but without the keyboards and emoticons :?:

UndercoverElephant

Clever Pun wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

However, Ms Kerry Stacey living at flat 25 of a high rise block of flats, with the lift that doesn't work and the stair case that smells of pee. I'm not seeing you relating to or identifying with her, her life and constraints on her life all that well. She has a kid as intelligent as you. For that kid to get out of the social decay that is the Chatsworth Estate a degree may be the only outlet. But she is priced out of it, that's what I take issue with. There are other examples that one a little extreme.

You might be able to relate to Kerry, you may know some chavs, stranger things in the Universe are certainly possible. And if that is the case I'll hold my hands up reach for the ketchup and eat my chip.

the fees are done as a loan right? so if the kid.. I'll call her chardonay(sic). If Chardonay is smart enough as you say, chances are she'll get a good job and be able to repay the loans easily enough... might take a few years but then has the rest of her life with a fruitful career

how is that priced out?


and normality is resumed

Except to Chardonnay and her Mum, £12,000 a year is an insane amount of money. Her perception of that may change after her degree, but getting that degree becomes an incredible obstacle.