Contador tests positive for Clenbuterol

inkyfingers

dmclite wrote:

surista wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

So, my point is, I never had any info on which to make a judgement on AC. I don't pre-judge based on rumors/gossip, ever.

:P :P :P :P :P

Then clearly you must believe Armstrong is clean. There is no official record of him failing a drug test. Only 'rumors & gossip', which you 'never ever' use to judge people, right?

He's right on that point and seems to have got FF by the cojones with that rationale. :P

Cue FF going missing from the thread for a day or so to avoid answering the question!

RichN95.

dmclite wrote:

surista wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

So, my point is, I never had any info on which to make a judgement on AC. I don't pre-judge based on rumors/gossip, ever.

:P :P :P :P :P

Then clearly you must believe Armstrong is clean. There is no official record of him failing a drug test. Only 'rumors & gossip', which you 'never ever' use to judge people, right?

He's right on that point and seems to have got FF by the cojones with that rationale. :P

Apart from missing the fact that FF was quoting Jon Vaughters, not posting his own opinion.

fret

Strange how the recent years have only had dope-heads from Spain or Spanish teams, isn't it?

surista

Damn. Upon closer examination it does look like that was a Vaughters tweet, not FF.

Sorry about that FF. Still think you're six ways to Sunday crazy, but just not for that post.

frenchfighter

RichN95 wrote:

dmclite wrote:

surista wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

So, my point is, I never had any info on which to make a judgement on AC. I don't pre-judge based on rumors/gossip, ever.

:P :P :P :P :P

Then clearly you must believe Armstrong is clean. There is no official record of him failing a drug test. Only 'rumors & gossip', which you 'never ever' use to judge people, right?

He's right on that point and seems to have got FF by the cojones with that rationale. :P

Apart from missing the fact that FF was quoting Jon Vaughters, not posting his own opinion.

Correct. Clear minded thinking.

sudholz

OK. Here' s the rest of that Mundo Interview:

Part 2

Cerron (his friend from the Vuelta Castilla y Leon) offered to bring something. The Cook requested a solomillo (steak) because he had problems with the hotel and he couldn't get what he wanted in Pau. Cerron found the butchers on the Internetz and purchased the meat. 5 riders went down late to eat on that day. The first four ate the hotel meat.

Because there were a number of teams at the hotel the management didn't let the team cooks into the hotel kitchen. Vino complained because he had eaten the hotel meat.

He's asked about how clen could have got into the meat in Europe. He says that some numbers don't correspond...vague stuff but goes on to say that they got detectives on the case...He says that the WADA investigation into Clen was full of mistakes.

He's asked why they haven't made a complaint to the police about this if he has evidence to prove the presence of Clen in the cow. He says that they did talk to the Basque authorities and they got some numbers that didn't add up.

He doesn't answer the question.

The beardy bloke talks about 100's of people suffering from meat contamination in Spain between 1990-95. He says that now things have changed since the mad cow business. He aludes to meat from other countries as well.

The presenter says that no meat has tested +ve for clen in Spain. Mr beardy points out that the study of 97 cows is not statistically accurate enough to draw a conclusion and that 5-6000 cows would be needed for an accurate study.

The interviewer goes on to say that the Spanish Federation have concluded that the only thing that is certain in the case is that there was only one single introduction of clen into Bertie's blood. He alludes to the 4 positives but attributes these to the single event and asks the beardy bloke (the doctor) if it were possible for the positives to have come from dodgy doings.

The doctor says that in science nothing is clear cut....but he agrees that the contamination happened on the afternoon/evening of the 20th and showed up in the test on the 21st.

They go on: the Spanish federation request which hyotheses they should consider from the UCI.

Four are provided (by the UCI):

1) Micro-dosing of clen. It is put to him that this might have appealed given his situation in the GC at the time. Bertie flatly rejects this. He says that it is physically impossible to take the amount found. The doc wades in to say that it would be absurd to take such small doses.

2) Re-transfusing previously contaminated blood. The interviewer asks him directly if he did this. Bertie pulls out the 'most tested' card. He says that the biological passport proves he didn't do this. He says that he had a blood test on the 21st and the 24th along with 3 others at the tour. He says that there is no variation in the passport over all the tests.

Part 3

The doctor is asked...and agrees that Bertie's haemoglogin levels maintain themselves stable. The interviewer asks Bertie if he is aware of other riders self-transfusing..he says he's heard of people doing it but that he knows of no one who does it. He's then asked about Riccó. He says he read about it on the way to the studio. He says that one needs to be careful before jumping to conclusions (esp. given the things that have been said about him) but that if it is true then it is a truly terrible thing. The interviewer says that Riccó's style reminded him of Berties (ouch!), being agressive and all. The doc goes on to speculate over the botched blood transfusion and says that one needs specialists to do this kind of thing.

Interviewer says that the Spanish federation have rejected theory 2 (which he says had made sense to him) and 3) which was accidental contamination through some product or other (none exist to give such a small dose).

They go on to talk about minimum doses. 18 months ago the director of the Cologne lab is quoted as saying that such small doses could come from accidental ingestion (even from drinking water). They re-iterate that the dose found was way below any amount that could give a performance advantage. This is the intro to a piece making a case for minimum levels.

Advert break

He's asked why he says that he states in his defense that he's required to provide an impossible proof "prueba diabolica"; to prove that soemthing didn't happen. He says that he can't get the meat back to prove his innocence.

He goes on to claim that even if he could produce the meat the outcome would be the same...

...interviewer tries to get him back on track by saying that the Spanish federation have rejected the other three hypotheses and think that the beef theory is the one. The only thing he is accused of by them is not taking care of what he ate...

Part 4

Bertie says that this should be everyone's problem not just his. Denies he has been negligent. The interviewer says he'd like to believe him but his head tells him that (despite the admiration he holds for Bert and his desire that he is innocent) all cyclists dope. Why if so many previous champions have doped should we believe that he hasn't?

Bert says that he can't speak for others but he hasn't. He takes issue with the assumption that all cyclists are on the juice.

He's asked about article 296 of the anti-doping rules which he's using in his defence. Basically it's the one that says if he took something inadvertantly he can't be held responsible and can't be sanctioned. He says that he's had article 297 thrown at him...

At this point there is an interesting slip of the tongue where he says falsa (false) instead of falta (fault).

...which is the one that allows for a reduction in the ban.

Interviewer: The lawyers use 3 arguments. 1) Law of probability if the 1st three are wrong, the 4th is probably right. 2) a call for common sense that the law shouldn't be followed literally if this unfairly infringes on the rights of the accused (epikeia) and 3) the Gasguet defense (2 year to 2 month reduction).

The beardy doctor talks (waffles) about this. Claims that the clen in meat theory is better. Cites a report stating that 12% of Mexican meat is contaminated with clen.

There's a break to give background on doping in cycling. Valverde. Fuentes. Oscar Sevilla. Vino. Big Jan. LA (!). Landis used as background along with the l'Equipe piece. Denials quoted.

The interviewer goes all out and quotes a list of tour winners (starting with Grimandi) who've admitted to doping.

Bert says that doping controls are much more stingent now. Interviewer responds with a more up to date list and says that this is happening now (today). Bert replies that if anyone hoping to win the Tour did anything at all, they'd be caught. He claims that the tests done on him can cost 6000 Euros. The Mosquera case is raised and Bert leaps to his defence saying that the case hasn't been resolved yet.

The Puerto business is brought up. He says that he has never met Eufamio Fuentes and wouldn't know him from Adam. It is pointed out that EF had all his team mates' blood in the fridge...how could he not have been aware of anything? Bert says he was only 20 years old.

Interviewer raises the letter he wrote when he wasn't at the tour coz of Astana's ban which was a call to young people to believe in clean cycling. He's asked if he still stands by those words and he replies that the difference is that, then he believed in the doping system and that now (although he always will work with the authorities to improve it) he doesn't.

He says he's done nothing...ever.


Part 5

Bjarne Riis? Asks the interviewer. Where does he fit in to the, "never worked with anyone connected with doping" defense he uses to conclude his submission to the Spanish federation? Bert says that Bjarne now has no case to answer having fessed up to having doped in his career: "Owing to his youth or whatever.." he adds. He's got more confidence in Bjarne than in others.

He says he'll go to wherever it takes to defend his innocence.

Interviewer directs himself to Carlos Castano (President of the Spanish federation) and the other 4 judges in the case. He does a round-up and tearfully pleads Bert's case.

- the amount of clen makes no difference to performance
- if they have discarded the 1st three theories then he is being punished unfairly for the 4th.

Audience questions:

Bert is asked if he will ride the Giro this year if he's able to. He says yes he'd like to.
Has he ever considered turning vegetarian? No but he's a lot more careful now.

Finishes with interviewer making crass comparison between his 'struggle' and riding a whole string of cols one after the other. As an aside, at the end Bert reveals that he's never climbed Lagos de Covadonga (which is cited in the list and is also one I did last summer...heh!).

My opinion:

It smacks to me of a slick PR job which wobbles a couple of times when Bert veers off course and is brought back on track by the presenter. To my mind they do a good job of asking the tough questions and appearing to be uncompromising without really pushing him to be clear. In the 1st vid in particular he comes across as a guy living in a Glass House (as Peter Tosh sung) who can't throw stones.

I also find the complete rejection of theory 2 odd. I really hope that a ratified plasticiser test can be brought to bear on the case to settle the issue.

Off to kip.

S

andrewjoseph

Because there were a number of teams at the hotel the management didn't let the team cooks into the hotel kitchen.

So how did the team chef manage then?

See, this is the bit I don't get. The hotel has food for all, yet a friend of the team is coming up for a visit and asks if they need anything and the team chef says, yeah, bring us some steak even though I can't cook in the kitchen.

Now, this is breaking so many of the self imposed team rules on food safety that it's criminal negligence.

Also, how many steaks did he bring, enough for the team or only one for Bertie? It seems only Bertie eat this meat and he ate it raw, with everything else raw too, 'cos the chef couldn't use the kitchen.

How stupid :

1. does he think we are?

2. is the chef?

3. team manager?

4. bertie?

sudholz

andrewjoseph wrote:

Because there were a number of teams at the hotel the management didn't let the team cooks into the hotel kitchen.

So how did the team chef manage then?

Team bus

andrewjoseph

sudholz wrote:

andrewjoseph wrote:

Because there were a number of teams at the hotel the management didn't let the team cooks into the hotel kitchen.

So how did the team chef manage then?

Team bus

Thank you.

That would explain the practical aspect of preparing the meat.

Now, how to explain:

1. the chef asking for a friend to pick up a few steaks,

2. using unprovenanced meat in competition,

3. contador eating said meat, bearing in mind the strict liability rule he agreed to.

The meat could have been spiked with anything, at any time, from before purchase, to getting to the chef. I might not even have been beef!

And spanish beef has not been proven to be tainted with clen to any significant percentage, or any percentage at all.

mexican beef has, apparantly, as has chinese pork and pork products.

No, a friend has been asked to pick up some spanish steak, travel in a car in hot weather to the french hotel for the chef to cook on the team bus because he wanted to give bertie a treat.

and bertie ate it without asking why no-one else in the team, or the hotel was also eating it.

iainf72

andrewjoseph wrote:

and bertie ate it without asking why no-one else in the team, or the hotel was also eating it.

No. Others on the team also ate it.

But they weren't subject to anti-doping tests.

andrewjoseph

Will you guys stop shooting down my well reasoned arguments on why bertie is not just a cheat, but stupid as well?



Thank you, I'd forgotten that other members of the team are alleged to have eaten the alleged steak.

Yes, there may be receipts, but that doesn't mean there was any meat.

And, if there was meat, it doesn't excuse the stupidity.

and, ..... something else will occur to me in a while.

secretsqirrel

Good work Sudholz. Thanks.

frenchfighter

Sudholz, that is superb. Thanks a lot.

DaveyL

sudholz wrote:

OK. Here' s the rest of that Mundo Interview:

He doesn't answer the question.

^ The condensed version for anyone who doesn't have the time to read it all.

surista

Hmm, something doesn't add up. According to reports the meat was prepared and eaten by the team over two days: the 20th (after the stage, one presumes) and the 21st. The clen showed up in Dirty Bertie's urine for four straight days.

1) The guy obviously bought a lot of meat - and yet there was no trace of clen at the butcher's shop where the meat was purchased, or the slaughterhouse where the meat was sourced from. That doesn't add up.

2) Does this mean that of all the riders on the team, Bertie was the only one tested during the entire four-day period? Do we have records of other team riders being tested?

bazbadger

The whole meat story is just odd. When it was first reported it sounded cobbled together. It still does now, though more so.

Stating the obvious (again), you get caught with a banned substance inside you, what do you do? Find a way to explain how it got there of course. Thankfully this stuff can be found in meat (though nowhere near you), so a story is concocted that suggests you ingested the substance when eating meat... etc etc. So, either Alberto takes us for all mugs, or it's true - but there is no evidence as of yet to back his story up.

Whoever suggested the meat excuse to Alberto in the first should not give up the day job just yet.

In the meantime Bertie needs some real evidence to back his claims up.

secretsqirrel

surista wrote:

Hmm, something doesn't add up. According to reports the meat was prepared and eaten by the team over two days: the 20th (after the stage, one presumes) and the 21st. The clen showed up in Dirty Bertie's urine for four straight days.

1) The guy obviously bought a lot of meat - and yet there was no trace of clen at the butcher's shop where the meat was purchased, or the slaughterhouse where the meat was sourced from. That doesn't add up.

2) Does this mean that of all the riders on the team, Bertie was the only one tested during the entire four-day period? Do we have records of other team riders being tested?

Vino was the only other member of the team tested on the rest day. He didn't eat the meat, and his tests were negative. I don't know if his samples were sent to Cologne.

andrewjoseph

from http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/02/news/must-reads-haussler-v-cav-contadors-mystery-meat-bauer-dreams-big_159103

La Vanguardia: The hunt for Contador’s steaks
The Spanish daily La Vanguardia claims that WADA investigators have tracked the meat Alberto Contador blames for his positive clenbuterol test to a Spanish provider whose products have never before shown traces of clenbuterol. The paper also reports that only one case of meat contamination turned up among 286,748 quality control tests conducted on European beef in 2008, and that lone sample was found in Italy.

The only news I can find about clen in spanish beef is the basque country parliament saying it is the cleanest in europe.

Garry H

andrewjoseph wrote:

from http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/02/news/must-reads-haussler-v-cav-contadors-mystery-meat-bauer-dreams-big_159103

La Vanguardia: The hunt for Contador’s steaks
The Spanish daily La Vanguardia claims that WADA investigators have tracked the meat Alberto Contador blames for his positive clenbuterol test to a Spanish provider whose products have never before shown traces of clenbuterol. The paper also reports that only one case of meat contamination turned up among 286,748 quality control tests conducted on European beef in 2008, and that lone sample was found in Italy.

The only news I can find about clen in spanish beef is the basque country parliament saying it is the cleanest in europe.

The whole thing's a Basque conspiracy!!

RichN95.

bazbadger wrote:

The whole meat story is just odd. When it was first reported it sounded cobbled together. It still does now, though more so.

It's always seemed to me as though someone typed "clenbutenol +cleared" into Google and saw what popped up.

Doobz

Report: some of RFEC Competition Committee want to clear Contador of all charges

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/7382/ ... z1DYohZZXF
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

andrewjoseph

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/7382/Report-part-of-RFEC-Competition-Committee-want-to-clear-Contador-of-all-charges.aspx

This fact is thought to be a factor that will be carefully considered today prior to the official ruling being finalised and announced. The RFEC has already contacted the UCI seeking guidance on the length of the ban it should imposed, but said that the governing body did not reply to it within a timeframe laid out by the UCI itself.

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/7382/ ... z1DYofdz00

UCI really don't want anything to do with this.

sudholz

DaveyL wrote:

sudholz wrote:

OK. Here' s the rest of that Mundo Interview:

He doesn't answer the question.

^ The condensed version for anyone who doesn't have the time to read it all.

(Un)fortunately he's moved on from:"Otra pregunta..."

surista

andrewjoseph wrote:

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/7382/Report-part-of-RFEC-Competition-Committee-want-to-clear-Contador-of-all-charges.aspx

This fact is thought to be a factor that will be carefully considered today prior to the official ruling being finalised and announced. The RFEC has already contacted the UCI seeking guidance on the length of the ban it should imposed, but said that the governing body did not reply to it within a timeframe laid out by the UCI itself.

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/7382/ ... z1DYofdz00

UCI really don't want anything to do with this.

'Tell us what ban we should impose, because we're too chicken to decide on our own'.

DaveyL

At the moment, Bert's tainted meat is in the same category as Tyler's vanishing twin. Both are *theoretically* plausible explanations, but the defence team now need to actually prove this is what happend. And in that regard, like with Tyler, we have seen absolutely nada from Bert.

bazbadger

Perhaps if the lab, the UCI or WADA would come clean about the alleged high levels of plasticizers then the whole issue would have more weight - either in Alberto's favour or not.

Without this, it just remains a political situation - which is how I read it at the moment.

Doobz

original story here in Spanish

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/noticias/ ... 1175.shtml

bazbadger

DaveyL wrote:

At the moment, Bert's tainted meat is in the same category as Tyler's vanishing twin. Both are *theoretically* plausible explanations, but the defence team now need to actually prove this is what happend. And in that regard, like with Tyler, we have seen absolutely nada from Bert.

Sometimes a semi-plausible explanation that cannot be either proved or disproved is a good bet. It creates a smokescreen and buys time.

LangerDan

sudholz wrote:

(Un)fortunately he's moved on from:"Otra pregunta..."

He's now blaming it on contamination from pregnant otters? :shock:

sudholz

Doobz wrote:

Report: some of RFEC Competition Committee want to clear Contador of all charges

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/7382/ ... z1DYohZZXF
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

That explains the impassioned appeal to the federation at the end of the programme. I was wondering why they were laying it on so thick if the decision had already been made.

But....it was only provisional.

:idea: *penny drops* :idea:

Not only has he got good lawyers, he's got damn fine PR to boot.

Running concurrently with the programme was a viewer poll asking callers to vote whether or not there was a global conspiracy to discredit Spanish sport. You can guess the outcome.

S