Contador tests positive for Clenbuterol

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  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    No GC guy comes close to him in terms of season long excitement, panache and talent. It will be a sore loss.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    sherer wrote:

    Well Vino and Basso have come back with a lot of success just depends on whether you think they are clean or not.

    Have there been some new quotes from Contador today then ? I read the quit ones last week but the above says he may quit even if proved innocent.

    specifically on Basso - In 06 he used to win time trials. He doesn't do that anymore. And his climbing while good, is not as good. So that really confirms he was up to no good. So depends whether Berty could do that. Vino - well, who knows.

    Yes, he was interviewed in a paper in Spain today.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    frenchfighter wrote:
    No GC guy comes close to him in terms of season long excitement, panache and talent. It will be a sore loss.
    If you stick a rocket up Kenny Van Hummel's ar$e then he'd discover panache and talent.

    The question is whether what you're seeing is the talent of the rider, or the haematologist.
  • calvjones
    calvjones Posts: 3,850
    Kléber wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    No GC guy comes close to him in terms of season long excitement, panache and talent. It will be a sore loss.
    If you stick a rocket up Kenny Van Hummel's ar$e then he'd discover panache and talent.

    The question is whether what you're seeing is the talent of the rider, or the haematologist.

    The fact he's been with Saiz since 16 probably means he has no idea himself whether he has any talent clean.

    Basso's halting progress since coming back looks to mean like a talented guy discovering how to ride clean.

    Ricco... less so...
    ___________________

    Strava is not Zen.
  • Gazzaputt
    Gazzaputt Posts: 3,227
    frenchfighter wrote:
    No GC guy comes close to him in terms of season long excitement, panache and talent. It will be a sore loss.

    Problem his season normally ends in July or August.

    On one hand it would be a shame to seem him retire if found not guilty but I agree with other posts this will always now hang over his head.
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    iainf72 wrote:
    sherer wrote:

    Well Vino and Basso have come back with a lot of success just depends on whether you think they are clean or not.

    Have there been some new quotes from Contador today then ? I read the quit ones last week but the above says he may quit even if proved innocent.

    specifically on Basso - In 06 he used to win time trials. He doesn't do that anymore. And his climbing while good, is not as good. So that really confirms he was up to no good. So depends whether Berty could do that. Vino - well, who knows.

    Yes, he was interviewed in a paper in Spain today.

    Didn't Basso only think about doping rather than actually do it :D

    I think with some of them doping is so ingrained in them that they just can't stop they see it as a part of cycling and staying ahead of the testers with new products as part of the job
  • attica
    attica Posts: 2,362
    Kléber wrote:
    If you stick a rocket up Kenny Van Hummel's ar$e then he'd discover panache and talent.

    OT I know but I think Kenny has panache by the bucketload - a real fighter.
    "Impressive break"

    "Thanks...

    ...I can taste blood"
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Gazzaputt wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    No GC guy comes close to him in terms of season long excitement, panache and talent. It will be a sore loss.

    Problem his season normally ends in July or August.

    On one hand it would be a shame to seem him retire if found not guilty but I agree with other posts this will always now hang over his head.

    Check out the races towards the beggining of the year (i/e not those from Giro onwards which is when there is an influx of people watching the sport). Few other GC riders race with his aggression throughout their season apart from Evans. He would race more but doesn't know how to ride just to ride/cruise/gain fitness. He enters races to race and win.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • epc06
    epc06 Posts: 216
    frenchfighter wrote:
    No GC guy comes close to him in terms of season long excitement, panache and talent. It will be a sore loss.

    Perhaps ricco will deliver some excitement and talent next season
  • Gazzaputt
    Gazzaputt Posts: 3,227
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Gazzaputt wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    No GC guy comes close to him in terms of season long excitement, panache and talent. It will be a sore loss.

    Problem his season normally ends in July or August.

    On one hand it would be a shame to seem him retire if found not guilty but I agree with other posts this will always now hang over his head.

    Check out the races towards the beggining of the year (i/e not those from Giro onwards which is when there is an influx of people watching the sport). Few other GC riders race with his aggression throughout their season apart from Evans. He would race more but doesn't know how to ride just to ride/cruise/gain fitness. He enters races to race and win.

    We agree on something! He does enter to win and I like that about him.

    My problem has always been his dubious past and associations.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Kléber wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    No GC guy comes close to him in terms of season long excitement, panache and talent. It will be a sore loss.
    If you stick a rocket up Kenny Van Hummel's ar$e then he'd discover panache and talent.

    The question is whether what you're seeing is the talent of the rider, or the haematologist.

    No not quite. As you know the drugs give you an advantage but you come in the top GC positions because you have talent.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • shinyhelmut
    shinyhelmut Posts: 1,364
    You can't really believe the drugs don't give you even a teeny little help in the GC?

    What do they help with then FF?
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    frenchfighter wrote:
    you come in the top GC positions because you have talent.
    Necessary, but often not sufficient.
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    I thik the problem with the pre and post EPO era is that in the old days the drugs just helped the greats survive and didn't help them in producing more muscle mass or more power etc.

    In the EPO ero and beyond the drugs can transform an average rider into a GC contender or classics riders can suddenly climb mountains like the GC guys.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    ShinyHelmut wrote:
    You can't really believe the drugs don't give you even a teeny little help in the GC?

    What do they help with then FF?

    Re-read. Drugs give you an advantage. But they will never turn an average rider into a GT winner, especially when they will have to try and beat the system in the process.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    frenchfighter wrote:
    ShinyHelmut wrote:
    You can't really believe the drugs don't give you even a teeny little help in the GC?

    What do they help with then FF?

    Re-read. Drugs give you an advantage. But they will never turn an average rider into a GT winner, especially when they will have to try and beat the system in the process.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Claudio Chiapucci.

    On a more serious note, how do we know, in the era of blood doping, who is an average clean rider or a great dirty rider. Doping takes that certainty away as the benefit gained is not a linear curve for all riders.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Re-read. Drugs give you an advantage. But they will never turn an average rider into a GT winner, especially when they will have to try and beat the system in the process.

    Ever heard of someone called Lance Armstrong? Or Bjarne Riis? Or Vino?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Elsewhere Rasmussen gives more views on the matter and even the parents of Marco Pantani have questioned the UCI in the way it handles the case.
  • shinyhelmut
    shinyhelmut Posts: 1,364
    I did read your post. I'm just wondering what you know that the rest of us don't. I can think of several average riders who became GT winners with a bit (lot) of medical assistance.
  • shinyhelmut
    shinyhelmut Posts: 1,364
    Some of whom have been named above. Must learn to type faster!
  • Tom Butcher
    Tom Butcher Posts: 3,830
    frenchfighter wrote:
    No GC guy comes close to him in terms of season long excitement, panache and talent. It will be a sore loss.

    I think you are exaggerating a bit here - when it comes to his main target races I wouldn't say he rides with particular panache. When he's clearly been the strongest rider he attacks - when he's been in doubt he marks his opponents. Sensible riding maybe but not the kind of cavalier that lights up the race.

    Leaving aside whether he'll keep the win - did he ride with more panache than Andy Schleck at this year's TdF ?
    it's a hard life if you don't weaken.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Contador had immense talent when he first rode a bike. He could keep up with older guys even riding his first bike - an iron Orbea.

    "He was about 15 the first time I saw him, with that iron bike, which was completely outdated. He had a natural talent and strength, and broke away from the pack in a race that included Madrid's best young cyclists. It was obvious he had no technique, but also that he wanted to be a cyclist. Alberto had nothing. His parents couldn't even go with him to the races because they had to stay with his younger brother Raúl, who has suffered from brain damage since he was a child. Raul was always in his wheelchair."
    - Javier Fernández, Embajadores team manager

    In his early races he used to shine in the mountains.

    He has won the Triple Crown of cycling - all three GTs - which only 4 others in history have done.

    He has is a winner - a ton of wins to his name, from solo summit finishes to TTs.

    That is talent. Unless you think riders aged 15,16,17... are doping which would be an extremely rare voice. Whatever you say and whatever happens, he is already an established champion.

    He also has a serious brain condition which he takes medicine daily for. Taking drugs would be more risky to his life for him than for others given this.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    ...Or how about the various Russian riders who shone briefly for one or two Giros then faded back into obscurity? Or for that matter Stefano Garzelli or Danilo Di Luca?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • LangerDan
    LangerDan Posts: 6,132
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Re-read. Drugs give you an advantage. But they will never turn an average rider into a GT winner, especially when they will have to try and beat the system in the process.


    Somewhere in the French Alps, a secret panel opens and, as alarms wail and beacons flash, a Cray XMT supercomputer cranks slowly into life ("Load, damn you"), makes contact with a secret internet communications satellite and the uploading begins........
    'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    edited October 2010
    Slightly off topic ...but does anyone have a link to the article where a guy took HGH and EPO etc to document what they did for his riding, Ive lost my link to that and wanted to read it again ??? ...sure somebody will know what I mean from that vague desc.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    FF Surely you mean a steel bike. Nobody has ever made a racing bike out of Iron. Stiff, I'll give you, but light it aint.

    As for Contador's palmeres at an early age, most pros will have a ton of junior wins to their name, as they're racing against the likes of you and me by and large.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    Ricco has been taking drugs since his juniour days so yes it does happen.
  • dulldave
    dulldave Posts: 949
    frenchfighter wrote:
    No GC guy comes close to him in terms of season long excitement, panache and talent. It will be a sore loss.

    Valverde? Oh I forgot he's last year's man isn't he?

    He'll be a sore loss as much as Ricco was if he's caught cheating. An exciting cheat is still a cheat.
    Scottish and British...and a bit French
  • LangerDan
    LangerDan Posts: 6,132
    edited October 2010
    mfin wrote:
    Slightly off topic ...but does anyone have a link to the article where a guy took HGH and EPO etc to document what they did for his riding, Ive lost my link to that and wanted to read it again ??? ...sure somebody will know what I mean from that vague desc.

    Don't have the link but I think the article was in the US "Outside" magazine
    'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'
  • shinyhelmut
    shinyhelmut Posts: 1,364
    frenchfighter wrote:
    That is talent. Unless you think riders aged 15,16,17... are doping which would be an extremely rare voice.

    You might want to pick up a copy of Matt Rendell's "The Death of Marco Pantani" . Drug use among juniors was/is depressingly common.
    He also has a serious brain condition which he takes medicine daily for. Taking drugs would be more risky to his life for him than for others given this.

    I remember another tour winner using a similar argument relating to his medical history.

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