Contador tests positive for Clenbuterol

frenchfighter

RichN95 wrote:

But of that lot I'd guess De La Fuente.

I guess no one is above suspiscion but De La Fuente had this to say:

frenchfighter wrote:

De la Fuente:

“If the bad stuff is in that meat, I ate it too. It was pure chance, because on that day, they wouldn’t let us into the hotel kitchen so the teams that had their own chef then ate whatever meat they had. The people that came down late to dinner ate something different than the first people,” assured the lieutenant of the yellow jersey.

De la Fuente related what went on that night within the Astana headquarters. “After the stage we went to the hotel. We got massages, like every day, and clearly, some go down first and others afterwards, according to when they finish. The first ones ate hotel food but, in the end, those of us that came down last were eating our food. Simply by chance.” De la Fuente was one of the last of the team to come down, and acknowledges that he shared dinner with the champion from Madrid.

“It’s not sanctionable”

The Cantabrian cyclist was indignant after verifying how the events had transpired. “You say otherwise, and you and I might go back and forth about it, but on this occasion, it seems outrageous. If it’s not sanctionable, if he isn’t banned, then why make it public. The only thing that it can do is put a stain on cycling. To tell the truth, I’m getting a bit lost in cycling,” said David de la Fuente, who trained in Cantabria yesterday as if it were a normal day.

The cyclist cried out for uniformity of criteria. “Let me clarify, things that are positives are positives, but what isn’t banned, shouldn’t be made public, because it never stops staining this sport.”

The rider, who is still with Astana and who, probably, could be absorbed by the team directed by Josean Fernández Matxín next year with the Geox company, had no chance to speak with Alberto Contador yesterday. “I wasn’t able. What I want is for it to be resolved. Alberto is a champion.”

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

sherer wrote:

interesting although it still seems stange he would take blood out after the Dauphine rather than earlier in the season when he would be fresher

You can't keep blood for very long. That's why the effect takes place so often.

Anyone else sub-par in races in June who were a lot better in July?

*whistles*

[stir]well not armstrong... he rode pretty well at TdS if I recall...not top shelf but not bad[/stir]
:P

calvjones

Of course Schleck had a great TdS albeit by accident.






Frank, anyway.

RichN95.

My answers in italics. I apologise that that makes it hard to quote me in response.

frenchfighter wrote:

How does this rider know so much about clen and tri. A rider who would want to bring Contador down by saying this to the media is not the type of rider I would imagine would be close enough to Contador to know these inner workings.

Your average cycling fan knows quite a lot about doping without doing it. I guess riders are the same, but more so.

How does an overweight rider ride aggressively and prominently in all the mountains.

He wasn't overweight in the way I am. He was overweight for a cyclist wanting to win the Tour. i.e. about 7% body fat

How does an overweight rider win atop l'Alpe.

He was racing Brajkovic, Szmyd and van Garderen, not Schleck, Menchov and Sanchez. No-one's claiming he's not talented

Why would a rider taking clen ride to win stages when those riders are the most likely to be tested.

The insider didn't say he took it during the Dauphine - just after.

On what evidence are these accustations made. Did the rider see the clen-taking or removal of blood. Or was he told that he was doing it. Was he doing it himself.

The article was just a teaser for a bigger article in Humo. Let's see what that says.

Why do they want to remian anonymous.

To avoid unwanted repercussions. Plenty of journalist's sources remain anonymous. Think Deep Throat. No, not that one you dirty boy, the Watergate one.

These are the questions that come to mind.

sherer

iainf72 wrote:

sherer wrote:

interesting although it still seems stange he would take blood out after the Dauphine rather than earlier in the season when he would be fresher

You can't keep blood for very long. That's why the effect takes place so often.

Anyone else sub-par in races in June who were a lot better in July?

*whistles*

I thought you could store it for three months but willing to be proved wrong there.

Rhods

Very interesting development.

Could someone with more knowledge clarify something for me please? Michael ashenden says that the test for plasticisers in the urine is valid. I thought that it was the fact that plasticisers were at a higher level in the blood that proved that a transfusion took place? How does this transpose to the urine test being valid? I'd have thought it would be a blood test that would prove this?

frenchfighter

Rich I hand it to you - you answered those succinctly and well. I have no response really other than, agreed, we'll see what the whole article says.

iainf72

Rhods wrote:

Could someone with more knowledge clarify something for me please? Michael ashenden says that the test for plasticisers in the urine is valid. I thought that it was the fact that plasticisers were at a higher level in the blood that proved that a transfusion took place? How does this transpose to the urine test being valid? I'd have thought it would be a blood test that would prove this?

No, it's a urine test. Through the magic of your body, the plasticisers are expelled from your blood and then into your urine.

Regarding blood transfusion, I think you can store red blood cell for about 40 days. The article says they only put a little bit in at a time now, so where they used to ram 500ml in, they now do 150 - 200ml. That might go some way to explaining the low level of clen.

mididoctors

frenchfighter wrote:

Rich I hand it to you - you answered those succinctly and well. I have no response really other than, agreed, we'll see what the whole article says.

ok

did you in all seriousness think he was clean before the story broke..?

ie if you had to guess at the end of the TdF you would have said he was clean?

I'm just asking

frenchfighter

Most certainly. Same with almost every other rider that hasn't been banned or had damning evidence against them.

At the end of the day, if he comes out and says he was doping or there is irrefutable information leading me to believe so, then I will be pretty pissed off. But that wont mean I will look back with anger or disappointment at the times I cheered for him, wont youtube him for his attacks, will delete the ton of photos of him, or wont enjoy it when he comes back and lights it up (albeit with less enthusiasm).

frenchfighter

I take issue with the rule of what they call ‘strict liability,’ in which an athlete is responsible for anything that is found in the urine or blood sample regardless of how they got there. And I also take issue where the penalties are not negotiable. I’m unaware of any justice system where there is the same penalty for every offence. There should be a degree of offences with harsher penalties than others. The black and white line that is created by the WADA code at the moment is partly what leads to the lack of respect from the athletes because the world is not like that. The world has grey areas and there needs to be some give and take on both sides and until that happens the athletes just aren’t going to believe that the anti–doping agencies have the right motive behind what they are doing.

Landis

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/int ... yclingnews

RichN95.

mididoctors wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Rich I hand it to you - you answered those succinctly and well. I have no response really other than, agreed, we'll see what the whole article says.

ok

did you in all seriousness think he was clean before the story broke..?

ie if you had to guess at the end of the TdF you would have said he was clean?

I'm just asking

To be fair to FF here, I myself liked to think that he might be on the level. I certainly thought that he wasn't directly involved in Puerto. But then I've never been one to point fingers without evidence.

Even when the Clen test came out, I stayed on the fence, due to by lack of knowledge of meat contamination, while others immediately gave a verdict of guilty.

However, the plasticizers were damning to me, even though it's still only a media report, not official, and I don't know much about the test. This whistleblower adds more smoke to the fire. I'm disappointed, not surprised.

I don't blame FF for his stance. He's a fan (personally I prefer Schleck), and if this happened to Cav or Thomas, I'd probably be the same. I've believed dopers in my mind before, and been wrong (Hamilton comes to mind). The time comes when you have say you are wrong, and I don't think there's enough yet for FF to reach that position, particularly as his forum personna is linked strongly with Contador.

frenchfighter

RichN95 wrote:

Thomas

Don't hear many say much about Geraint - do you like him because he is Welsh, because you like him as a rider, both, or other?

mididoctors

RichN95 wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Rich I hand it to you - you answered those succinctly and well. I have no response really other than, agreed, we'll see what the whole article says.

ok

did you in all seriousness think he was clean before the story broke..?

ie if you had to guess at the end of the TdF you would have said he was clean?

I'm just asking

To be fair to FF here, I myself liked to think that he might be on the level. I certainly thought that he wasn't directly involved in Puerto. But then I've never been one to point fingers without evidence.

Even when the Clen test came out, I stayed on the fence, due to by lack of knowledge of meat contamination, while others immediately gave a verdict of guilty.

However, the plasticizers were damning to me, even though it's still only a media report, not official, and I don't know much about the test. This whistleblower adds more smoke to the fire. I'm disappointed, not surprised.

I don't blame FF for his stance. He's a fan (personally I prefer Schleck), and if this happened to Cav or Thomas, I'd probably be the same. I've believed dopers in my mind before, and been wrong (Hamilton comes to mind). The time comes when you have say you are wrong, and I don't think there's enough yet for FF to reach that position, particularly as his forum personna is linked strongly with Contador.

what a surprise ridden world you two live in

just kiddin'

You have to go with the testing regime I guess

EDIT

put it this way.... even if the clenbuterol is food contamination I still wouldn't believe AC is a clean rider if i had to bet my life on it.

RichN95.

frenchfighter wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Thomas

Don't hear many say much about Geraint - do you like him because he is Welsh, because you like him as a rider, both, or other?

I live in Cardiff. I know people who went to his school, Whitchurch High School, (I often play hockey there), I know a couple of his old teachers, I sometimes meet cyclists from his old club (Cardiff Jif). I've followed his progress since he was about 16.

Basically, a local boy done good (even though I'm from Berkshire - I like Cioni because he was born in Reading).

Pokerface

Seems Contador has learned a lot from Armstrong after all. Now threatening to sue anyone and everyone that publishes anything bad about him. News comes after the unnamed rider made allegations that he was taking clen and extracting his own blood after the Dauphine.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/10/ ... ets_145469

frenchfighter

Is micro-dosing 150 going to give you any performance increase anyway? It is roughly 2.5% of the total blood someone has in their body.

RichN95.

frenchfighter wrote:

Is micro-dosing 150 going to give you any performance increase anyway? It is roughly 2.5% of the total blood someone has in their body.

That's a good question. I believe there are cyclists going to some extremes to get an advantage that doesn't exist. Some busted cyclists (notably Kohl) proclaim various things about doping, but they're not scientists, they just believe what the doctor tells them. And that holiday home in Tenerife and the Lamborginhi aren't paid for by saying 'this isn't going to make much difference, don't bother'.

frenchfighter

If a rider requires performance enhancing drugs to be at the sharp end, it seems logical to say that in many instances a rider will not be doping for and around every race, all season long, etc etc. Because there is an increased chance of getting caught.

So can someone please explain why Contador is consistently at the front end from his first race to his last?

Cumulonimbus

Assuming haemetocrit is 40%, or 1 in 2.5 of total blood then wouldnt infusing an extra 2.5% of blood would give the equivalent of an extra percentage to HCT (or more if red blood cells are concentrated). Could make all the difference come the end, especially if you think you wont get caught.

Then again i would have thought that his training would enable him to lose weight, he should be motivated enough to follow a strict diet in the weeks leading up to the big race?

DaveyL

Bear in mind that during a three week Grand Tour riders get fatigued, their hematocrit falls and their power drops (slightly). If you can "cushion" that drop by micro-transfusing, then you will have an advantage over clean riders.

Bronzie

frenchfighter wrote:

Is micro-dosing 150 going to give you any performance increase anyway? It is roughly 2.5% of the total blood someone has in their body.

Supposing you did this every few days though, that would give you quite a boost during a 3 week tour.

Pokerface

frenchfighter wrote:

If a rider requires performance enhancing drugs to be at the sharp end, it seems logical to say that in many instances a rider will not be doping for and around every race, all season long, etc etc. Because there is an increased chance of getting caught.

So can someone please explain why Contador is consistently at the front end from his first race to his last?

No one is saying the guy isn't talented. But think of it this way - a 2.5% bonus hit of blood if it had the same bonus effect on performance - over a 90 hour, 3 week Tour would equate to 135 second bonus. More than enough to win.


Every second counts and means the difference between winning and NOT winning. You can't afford a bad day in the Tour. (That goes for any rider - not just Contador)

deal

It would be 150ml of packed cells, not 150ml of whole blood.

A unit of packed cells (300ml) is generally beleived to give a 3% hct increase.

sherer

FF is some of the what you read about cycling is true doping is so ingrained in the sport that everyone does it.

As some have said Ricco and Kohl only failed one test each rather than all their tests when they were doping. It seems that even with these new tests the drugs are still one step ahead. Clen is only meant to have a life of 24 hours so you can declare yourself for a drug test one morning and the day after be available in the afternoon, giving you more than 24 hours to be clean when tested. There may even be drugs that can't be detected after 12 hours or less.

They also can't detect blood tranfusions of your own blood, although this case mentions a test they are looking to bring in

dave_1

I see AC is now responding legally to unspecified media outlets. Interesting.

slowondefy2

Naive question - is it possible to do multiple micro-infusions without leaving physical evidence (bruising, for example)?

I realise that the technical staff doing the procedures will have somewhat better skills than the average heroin addict, but still....

BlackdownBuzzard

Anyone know what the time-frame for his ban being confirmed is? This is really dragging on.

RichN95 wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Thomas

Don't hear many say much about Geraint - do you like him because he is Welsh, because you like him as a rider, both, or other?

I live in Cardiff. I know people who went to his school, Whitchurch High School, (I often play hockey there), I know a couple of his old teachers, I sometimes meet cyclists from his old club (Cardiff Jif). I've followed his progress since he was about 16.

Basically, a local boy done good (even though I'm from Berkshire - I like Cioni because he was born in Reading).

I've raced against Cardiff Jif! My nearest claim to cycling fame so far then. Especially that old slightly overweight jiffer with lightweight wheels! Jammy scrote.

frenchfighter

Keisse:

"The two things are hard to compare, but if Contador says that it comes from food contamination and the quantities are so small that they are not performance enhancing, then there are similarities," said the battered rider in a conversation with Belga.

"If I compare his case to mine, then it appears that the UCI and WADA have already been very mild. I paid for everything, and I finally proved where [the cathine and HCT] came from, and it wasn't performance enhancing. I was then acquitted, but then [WADA] appealed, and I was once again suspended."

"With Contador, they say that further research will be done to come to a correct conclusion. This is working with two sizes and two weights. But who am I? Maybe it's good that something really big like this happens. Maybe that will be cause for chance. For me, it is too late though, because I've been at this for so long."

"I wish him luck, because it is a difficult road. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. He'll have more resources that I, and as I said, the UCI and WADA are being very mild, but I think WADA will apply its regulations very strictly. If they respect what they have done to riders like me, then they will not let other riders go."

Lion King:

“Contador has always been a champion of clean cycling and I hope he remains that way," said the Italian. "We want cycling to be clean and we want cyclists who ride with guts and passion up the mountains and against the clock; but it's a very delicate situation and I hope he clears things up: not for me but for the fans and the authorities.

"If he can do that he could emerge even cleaner than before,” he added, “and it would mean the sport wouldn't lose such an enormous talent."

“We spend a lot of time and money trying to make sure the sport is clean,” he said. “I'm talking about new initiatives like biological passports, random tests, research into new substances and so on. I don't see other sports doing as much as cycling. I would like to see somebody compare the number of tests that cycling does with other sports.

"Let's look at football [soccer], the most popular sport,” Cipollini added. I'd love them to submit themselves to the tests and surprise visits we agree to. I'd like to see football bring in biological passports and whereabouts-style testing."

Noval:

“It hurts to see Alberto Contador sad and furious due to these accusations, being innocent.”

So commented, with force, Benjamín Noval—cyclist from Mieres and gregario to Alberto Contador—yesterday from his house in El Arco (Lavinia), at seeing how his boss suffers with accusations over anti-doping controls.

It’s little wonder, because the Asturian—apart from being his protector on the road—is also Contador's personal friend and roommate at the races. “Alberto is going through bad times and no one could wish that on him, even though he’s prepared to fight and I’m very sure that he hasn’t done anything bad."

"I stand behind him 100% because I know how he behaves and he has a very good biological passport. He’s always willing to submit to the controls. I hope that in ten days everything will be resolved, even though the damage has already been done, and he can go back to enjoying the bike,” he said.

Noval spoke with Alberto in order “to encourage him. Yesterday I did it again. You see him with anger and powerlessness at seeing how they persecute him, and every day they try to antagonize him more. So sometimes it just leaves you speechless.”

Just the Asturians Dani Navarro and Benjamín Noval, like Contador, ate the pieces of tenderloin in question twice. Noval explains that “the meat was very rich. It was tender white veal tenderloin, not aged. It wasn’t from a steer; instead it was from young calf. It was very buttery and I remember that we commented that you didn’t need a knife because it could be cut with the blunt side. And look at all the controversy that it’s unleashing.”

Benjamín Noval is clear that “if they had me go through a control it would’ve been worse than Contador’s because they would’ve already stuck me with a two-year sanction because it would be said that on other days my levels would’ve been higher and nobody would’ve believed in my innocence. In this Alberto has a defense because he did controls on days before and after he was leader, and this infinitesimal amount owing to contaminated food shows up. But despite being that champion, they’re giving him a lot of problems over a thing where he sees himself as innocent.”

Additionally, the topic has been opened in France and the USA that they’ve found a lot of plastic in a urine analysis of Contador and that that could indicate an auto-transfusion.

Noval is angry because “it’s being done with a method that hasn’t been correlated or proven, and according to some specialists I heard, that amount of plastic could be from tetrabrick cartons, water bottles, or the number of bidons that we drank in the really hot stages. It’s a form of continuing to persecute Alberto and it’s accusing for the sake of accusing, and to damage Alberto’s image. If that’s how things are, then they’ll have to analyze all the riders in the Tour and I’m sure that they’ll give positives for plastic as well.”

Alberto is “well-protected by his family and people that advise him to step away from this controversy that only looks for opportunism.

"The damage that they’re doing to Contador is very great and it’s not strange to me that faced with so much pressure he would start thinking about quitting riding. But Alberto is strong and I’m sure that everything will turn out well.”

dennisn

Dave_1 wrote:

I see AC is now responding legally to unspecified media outlets. Interesting.

I'm thinking that if it was me I would be doing the same thing. It's not like the media
doesn't get carried away with trying to sell copy.