NY Times - Cyclists are said to back claims Armstrong doped

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  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    Just to muddy the crystal clear waters a bit. Popovych didn't ride for the team when it was backed by US Postal, did he? He joined up with Discovery Channel in 2005.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    DaveyL wrote:
    Just to muddy the crystal clear waters a bit. Popovych didn't ride for the team when it was backed by US Postal, did he? He joined up with Discovery Channel in 2005.

    Indeed. Which does make you wonder if the investigation is not only about USPS / Lance.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    they might be trying to follow the paper trail from Disco and see if it leads to the same place. Plus with the same staff and management, wasn't this also run by Tailwind Sports ? , they might be trying to show that the management was behind the doping and the practices at Disco, Astana, Shack prove that.
  • cajun_cyclist
    cajun_cyclist Posts: 493
    In one of the mega long threads, forget which, they were talking about a trick with a catheter in passing a urine test. Crikey, I thought in that other thread a different method was spoken about than this one here or else the poster saved us from being so graphic as here. :
    After the Games (Athens Olympics), the report shows 14 positives, of which three were refusals of the athletes to perform doping control after their competition, in some cases even after receiving a gold medal. The refusals, according to an anonymous letter to the IAAF, were motivated by the use of a urinary device by athletes. The balloon, with manipulated and clean urine, is inserted in the anus of the athlete before the competition, and the catheter remains undetectable under the perineum and the penis. During the recollection of urine in the doping control room, the athlete contracts the gluteus and the elevator of the anus, eliminating the fake urine.

    http://thefixedgear.wordpress.com/page/3/

    This blog was pointed out for other reasons in another forum I was reading. Stumbled on the above. Curious blog.

    The extremes an athlete would go to, most of us, you know, I don't think would ever feel it is that important even with all the money involved to do something like this. The thing is though, we know a lot of these athletes basically get caught in the wheels of the system just like so many others out there.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    Significant progress being made..................
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101119/ap_ ... ong_doping
    Some detail, at least.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • stagehopper
    stagehopper Posts: 1,593
    Armstrong spokesman Mark Fabiani said. "All of Lance's samples were clean when they were first provided and tested, and no amount of tax-money-wasting European meetings can change that fundamental fact."

    So is that going to be the position? Re-tests don't count even if technology has moved on?
    @stagehopper
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    stagehopper wrote:
    Armstrong spokesman Mark Fabiani said. "All of Lance's samples were clean when they were first provided and tested, and no amount of tax-money-wasting European meetings can change that fundamental fact."

    So is that going to be the position? Re-tests don't count even if technology has moved on?

    You may not like it but if that's their position, then that's their position. You don't have a say in any of this, so why let it bother you?
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    It doesn't bother me in the slightest, but as a position it's crap, as anyone can undermine it in a matter of seconds simply by pointing out that there was no ratified EPO test until late summer 2000. Something Armstrong has fallen foul of before.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    dennisn wrote:
    stagehopper wrote:
    Armstrong spokesman Mark Fabiani said. "All of Lance's samples were clean when they were first provided and tested, and no amount of tax-money-wasting European meetings can change that fundamental fact."

    So is that going to be the position? Re-tests don't count even if technology has moved on?

    You may not like it but if that's their position, then that's their position. You don't have a say in any of this, so why let it bother you?

    Nothing wrong with that position, just as long as they point out to the masses that there was no test for EPO at the time the 1999 samples were given.
    I'm sure being respectable lawyers 'n all, they will do just that....... :roll: :lol:
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • jerry3571
    jerry3571 Posts: 1,532
    Absolute Poetry!

    I am now finding after Lance's final Tour de France that the career of this bike rider should be left to the history books. Most great Champions have a cloud of suspicion over them and some have been caught and some have admitted to doping. The point of catching someone who dopes is to stop any further infringemnets from happening. Lance has gone and no one could get him in a single dope test.
    The Doping authorities were responsible in getting a result if Lance cheated but they failed.
    I think there is no point in wasting time in saying "I told you so" if Lance is proven to have doped. To be honest, I don't care and i think preserving his Charity is a much bigger priority. Let him go off in the sunset and do his thing to promote his Charity. This Charity seems to give out a lot of good advice and help to a lot of desperate and sick people. If one person is saved or helped from cancer then I say that I don't care whether he cheated, to me, it was worth it.

    -Jerry
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein

    "You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
    -Jacques Anquetil
  • stagehopper
    stagehopper Posts: 1,593
    dennisn wrote:
    stagehopper wrote:
    Armstrong spokesman Mark Fabiani said. "All of Lance's samples were clean when they were first provided and tested, and no amount of tax-money-wasting European meetings can change that fundamental fact."

    So is that going to be the position? Re-tests don't count even if technology has moved on?

    You may not like it but if that's their position, then that's their position. You don't have a say in any of this, so why let it bother you?

    Doesn't bother me, just commenting on it being extremely reductive as a defence.
    @stagehopper
  • WisePranker
    WisePranker Posts: 823
    jerry3571 wrote:
    Absolute Poetry!

    I am now finding after Lance's final Tour de France that the career of this bike rider should be left to the history books. Most great Champions have a cloud of suspicion over them and some have been caught and some have admitted to doping. The point of catching someone who dopes is to stop any further infringemnets from happening. Lance has gone and no one could get him in a single dope test.
    The Doping authorities were responsible in getting a result if Lance cheated but they failed.
    I think there is no point in wasting time in saying "I told you so" if Lance is proven to have doped. To be honest, I don't care and i think preserving his Charity is a much bigger priority. Let him go off in the sunset and do his thing to promote his Charity. This Charity seems to give out a lot of good advice and help to a lot of desperate and sick people. If one person is saved or helped from cancer then I say that I don't care whether he cheated, to me, it was worth it.

    -Jerry

    I agree wholeheartedly with Jerry's post. Let LA get on with his Livestrong thing and forget about him.

    Personally I'm no expert on the whole doping/LA thing but in my opinion he'll always be thought of as a doper by some people no matter what tests he passes or what investigations come up empty handed.
    I think that the current investigation is going to HAVE to find something so the investigators can justify the expense of it all, whether or not their findings will be twisted somewhat to suit their own agenda, we'll never know and people will always speculate as to whether or not this has happened.

    I personally hope LA hasn't doped and the investigation comes up trumps for him as i'd hate to see the work he's put into the cancer charities and Livestrong go down the pan due to him having a tarnished reputation.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,653
    WisePranker wrote:
    jerry3571 wrote:
    Absolute Poetry!

    I am now finding after Lance's final Tour de France that the career of this bike rider should be left to the history books. Most great Champions have a cloud of suspicion over them and some have been caught and some have admitted to doping. The point of catching someone who dopes is to stop any further infringemnets from happening. Lance has gone and no one could get him in a single dope test.
    The Doping authorities were responsible in getting a result if Lance cheated but they failed.
    I think there is no point in wasting time in saying "I told you so" if Lance is proven to have doped. To be honest, I don't care and i think preserving his Charity is a much bigger priority. Let him go off in the sunset and do his thing to promote his Charity. This Charity seems to give out a lot of good advice and help to a lot of desperate and sick people. If one person is saved or helped from cancer then I say that I don't care whether he cheated, to me, it was worth it.

    -Jerry

    I agree wholeheartedly with Jerry's post. Let LA get on with his Livestrong thing and forget about him.

    Personally I'm no expert on the whole doping/LA thing but in my opinion he'll always be thought of as a doper by some people no matter what tests he passes or what investigations come up empty handed.
    I think that the current investigation is going to HAVE to find something so the investigators can justify the expense of it all, whether or not their findings will be twisted somewhat to suit their own agenda, we'll never know and people will always speculate as to whether or not this has happened.

    I personally hope LA hasn't doped and the investigation comes up trumps for him as i'd hate to see the work he's put into the cancer charities and Livestrong go down the pan due to him having a tarnished reputation.

    Well while this has been discussed at length already I'd like to quickly summarise why I totally disagree.

    Firstly: did he or didn't he?
    There's a mountain of evidence against him. It just isn't really feasible to believe he rode clean, without a huge amount of wishful thinking. I won't list it here, I think we've all seen it.

    As for his charity work, there are a vast amount of charities out there doing good work, very many of them related to cancer. While Livestrong has grabbed a lot of headlines it may also detract attention and funds from some of the others. I'm not saying it isn't a good charity, just that there's only so much attention/money to go round in the charity world. Maybe that's a little too cynical, but I think anti cancer work would go on, at about the same level, with or without Livestrong.

    Lastly, rightly or wrongly LA has become symbolic of the side of cycling I'd like to see eradicated - the omerta, the cynical cheating, the "everybody does it" attitude. It's a culture that quite possibly extends all the way into the UCI. We can't keep sweeping this stuff under the carpet and crossing our fingers that things will be better in the future, that we've made a bit of progress since the dark days of the turn of the millennium. We need to address it, to challenge it and refuse it. If we don't it just ends up as SSDD.
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  • shinyhelmut
    shinyhelmut Posts: 1,364
    WisePranker wrote:
    I agree wholeheartedly with Jerry's post. Let LA get on with his Livestrong thing and forget about him.

    Livestrong.org or Livestrong.com

    If it was just about .org, the charity then I could almost agree with you. As it is Livestrong is now as much about making money through the .com website as it is about helping cancer sufferers. I object strongly to the same branding being used for a commercial venture as for the charity.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    WisePranker wrote:
    jerry3571 wrote:
    Absolute Poetry!

    I am now finding after Lance's final Tour de France that the career of this bike rider should be left to the history books. Most great Champions have a cloud of suspicion over them and some have been caught and some have admitted to doping. The point of catching someone who dopes is to stop any further infringemnets from happening. Lance has gone and no one could get him in a single dope test.
    The Doping authorities were responsible in getting a result if Lance cheated but they failed.
    I think there is no point in wasting time in saying "I told you so" if Lance is proven to have doped. To be honest, I don't care and i think preserving his Charity is a much bigger priority. Let him go off in the sunset and do his thing to promote his Charity. This Charity seems to give out a lot of good advice and help to a lot of desperate and sick people. If one person is saved or helped from cancer then I say that I don't care whether he cheated, to me, it was worth it.

    -Jerry

    I agree wholeheartedly with Jerry's post. Let LA get on with his Livestrong thing and forget about him.

    Personally I'm no expert on the whole doping/LA thing but in my opinion he'll always be thought of as a doper by some people no matter what tests he passes or what investigations come up empty handed.
    I think that the current investigation is going to HAVE to find something so the investigators can justify the expense of it all, whether or not their findings will be twisted somewhat to suit their own agenda, we'll never know and people will always speculate as to whether or not this has happened.

    I personally hope LA hasn't doped and the investigation comes up trumps for him as i'd hate to see the work he's put into the cancer charities and Livestrong go down the pan due to him having a tarnished reputation.

    Well while this has been discussed at length already I'd like to quickly summarise why I totally disagree.

    Firstly: did he or didn't he?
    There's a mountain of evidence against him.

    I BELIEVE BUT DON"T REALLY KNOW FOR SURE there is a mountain of evidence against him. There, fixed that for you.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,653
    dennisn wrote:

    I BELIEVE BUT DON"T REALLY KNOW FOR SURE there is a mountain of evidence against him. There, fixed that for you.

    Sigh.

    I believe the earth is roughly spherical. I believe it orbits a huge ball of flaming gas that we call the sun. I believe that rocks are hard, unless they're very very hot. I believe that oceans are wet. I believe that there's a huge amount of evidence that LA doped and I believe that dennisn is a forum troll.
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  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    dennisn wrote:

    I BELIEVE BUT DON"T REALLY KNOW FOR SURE there is a mountain of evidence against him. There, fixed that for you.

    Sigh.

    I believe the earth is roughly spherical. I believe it orbits a huge ball of flaming gas that we call the sun. I believe that rocks are hard, unless they're very very hot. I believe that oceans are wet. I believe that there's a huge amount of evidence that LA doped and I believe that dennisn is a forum troll.

    I'll go along with all of that, except I don't believe I'm a forum troll. I believe I'm a forum
    *sshole. And by the way I'm sure that there are many people who would be interested in your "mountain of evidence" that will put LA away for good. So, please contact the proper authorities with said "evidence" instead of just telling us that you have all this insider knowledge. Looking forward to reading about your eyewitness accounts of all the evil doings of LA and the boys. How you were with them on that famous bus trip on which all of them were doing all sorts of drugs. Also about your hard copies of all his criminal dealings while with Postal. You could also include, tho it's been do before, BikingBernie's famous chart, which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, to even the most ignorant of us, that we are dealing with pure evil here. So I say bring on this "mountain....". We're all waiting.
  • senoj
    senoj Posts: 213
    I believe this situation has arisen before.
  • ratsbeyfus
    ratsbeyfus Posts: 2,841
    Yep... here we go again. You've got to hand it to Dennisn, he really is the king of the trolls. BTW Dennisn... remember these sage words you posted yesterday before you start frothing at the mouth again and bashing away at your keyboard:
    You may not like it but if that's their position, then that's their position. You don't have a say in any of this, so why let it bother you?

    I had one of them red bikes but I don't any more. Sad face.

    @ratsbey
  • calvjones
    calvjones Posts: 3,850
    senoj wrote:
    I believe this situation has arisen before.

    You master of understatement, you.
    ___________________

    Strava is not Zen.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    dennisn wrote:
    So I say bring on this "mountain....". We're all waiting.

    Don't worry, Den. It's coming. And a little bit of your tax dollars have gone towards the effort. This makes me very happy.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,653
    DaveyL wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    So I say bring on this "mountain....". We're all waiting.

    Don't worry, Den. It's coming. And a little bit of your tax dollars have gone towards the effort. This makes me very happy.

    :lol:
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  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,653
    senoj wrote:
    I believe this situation has arisen before.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. So I'll just let dennis go to the mountain rather than trying to bring the mountain to him
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  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    So, the rumours say a number of people will be informed after thanksgiving that they're under investigation and for what.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    Happy holidays!
  • ratsbeyfus
    ratsbeyfus Posts: 2,841
    Lance's people tallk to RATS, and LA est no muy tranquilo:

    http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/6435/Confirmed-Lance-Armstrong-plans-to-race-in-Rotorua-triathlon-one-week-after-Tour-Down-Under.aspx

    I had one of them red bikes but I don't any more. Sad face.

    @ratsbey
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    senoj wrote:
    I believe this situation has arisen before.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

    Not sure how that stupid quote applies here, but it's nowhere near being true. People generally know all about the past but keep making the same mistakes over and over and over. Humanity hasn't learned a damn thing from its past. Anyway, how does that apply here?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    iainf72 wrote:
    So, the rumours say a number of people will be informed after thanksgiving that they're under investigation and for what.

    So any time after this Thursday?


    Jeez - keep it vague..
    _
  • Richrd2205
    Richrd2205 Posts: 1,267
    dennisn wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    senoj wrote:
    I believe this situation has arisen before.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

    Not sure how that stupid quote applies here, but it's nowhere near being true. People generally know all about the past but keep making the same mistakes over and over and over. Humanity hasn't learned a damn thing from its past. Anyway, how does that apply here?
    Dennis, you're not sure about that thing about not learning from/knowing your past causes you to repeat it?
    Can you do me a favour & look through your post history?
    Pretty please?
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Richrd2205 wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    senoj wrote:
    I believe this situation has arisen before.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

    Not sure how that stupid quote applies here, but it's nowhere near being true. People generally know all about the past but keep making the same mistakes over and over and over. Humanity hasn't learned a damn thing from its past. Anyway, how does that apply here?
    Dennis, you're not sure about that thing about not learning from/knowing your past causes you to repeat it?
    Can you do me a favour & look through your post history?
    Pretty please?


    Did you catch me in a mistake(for lack of a better word)?
    In any case people may learn from their own mistakes but others sure don't.
    People cheat at all types of sports and many get caught and even learn from it.
    Problem is other people who come in to the sport don't learn the lesson until it happens to them and some not even then. They know the history and they know how it ends for lots of people but they will do what they will do anyway. Very few people learn much of anything from others mistakes. You can't catch them all and the rewards are too great
    to prevent people from trying, be it dope or any other form of cheating. Clean up cycling, or any pro sport, I think not? But, you may dream on, if that's your desire. "IF" LA gets busted he may or may not learn anything, but I doubt too many others will take the lesson to heart. Why would they? Can't happen to them. Right? They're smarter than that?

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