TdF stage 19 *spoiler*

plectrum

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

As Iain has pointed out a few times, without the peloton sitting up into Spa, it would be Tour over on the third day, so "chaingate" is redundant really.

The best man won over three weeks, even if Andy was better than we expected him to be.

This is such a nonsense reply. Andy Schleck fell on oil i.e. nothing to do with performance. If we take the oil out, take the go slow out and take the chaingate out Andy Schleck would have won.

The best man didn't win. Schleck was clearly the better cyclist this year.

GroupOfOne MkII

Anyone know what the music closing ITV4's show just then was?

SpaceJunk

mididoctors wrote:

SpaceJunk wrote:

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

As Iain has pointed out a few times, without the peloton sitting up into Spa, it would be Tour over on the third day, so "chaingate" is redundant really.

The best man won over three weeks, even if Andy was better than we expected him to be.

Actually some might argue that the best man was Menchov. He didn't get held up in the Spa fracas.

Of course it's only an 'if' statement, but if Cancellara wasn't in yellow at the time, would we have seen a different yellow jersey winner??

the time margins between riders is so much smaller now in the tour that race incidents have risen in importance in how they effect the result

Yep, so true.

paulcuthbert

GroupOfOne MkII wrote:

Anyone know what the music closing ITV4's show just then was?

Will have a listen when it comes on +1 in an hour and let you know..

SpaceJunk

RichN95 wrote:

SpaceJunk wrote:

BTW - how did Lance go today? I watched the stage for it's whole duration, but he didn't get much tv coverage.

67th @ 7.05

Sorry, my earlier comment was purely tongue in cheek. It felt for a good half hour, that lance was only rider on course.

Will L

Although AS lost most of his time on the descent, after chaingate, so.....
you can't compare

I think you can. AC gained on the descent mainly because of the speed the pack he was in was able to generate together. If the whole lot had reached the top together, the greatest likelihood was that they would finish together (BTW, pretty much all the commentators on both channels rated Schleck's descent really highly - that he did well to limit his losses in the circumstances).

On a completely different note - Bradley Wiggins's time looked a lot more impressive than it did initially, with nobody behind him being able to match. Looks like the wind played a fairly big part in the stage result?

plectrum

iainf72 wrote:

There were so many "what if x or y happened" moments. At the end, how it panned out is how it panned out.

I'm satisfied the best guy won. It was a worse than average Tour but they can't all be great. Imagine if this one had been the closet. *shudder*

Huge amount of crashes because people are trying to ride at doped speed with less doping? In From Lance to Landis Walsh wrote about people crashing a lot when EPO started to ramp the speeds up.

I do agree it is how it is and Contador has won but I do not understand how you feel he was the best guy?

If we spin back a few days, Andy Schleck had broke an attack and was ~ 20 metres clear of Alberto Contador. Go forward a couple of days and Andy Schleck leads Alberto Contador all the way up Tourmalet and matches his aggressive sprint break with ease before taking the stage. Finally Andy Schleck finishes relatively close to Alberto Contador in the final TT.

Give me a clear reason as to why Alberto Contador was the 'best guy'

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

There were so many "what if x or y happened" moments. At the end, how it panned out is how it panned out.

I'm satisfied the best guy won. It was a worse than average Tour but they can't all be great. Imagine if this one had been the closet. *shudder*

Huge amount of crashes because people are trying to ride at doped speed with less doping? In From Lance to Landis Walsh wrote about people crashing a lot when EPO started to ramp the speeds up.

worse than average?


give us a average tour for comparative purposes so we can then have a long pointless but enjoyable debate

paulcuthbert

plectrum wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

There were so many "what if x or y happened" moments. At the end, how it panned out is how it panned out.

I'm satisfied the best guy won. It was a worse than average Tour but they can't all be great. Imagine if this one had been the closet. *shudder*

Huge amount of crashes because people are trying to ride at doped speed with less doping? In From Lance to Landis Walsh wrote about people crashing a lot when EPO started to ramp the speeds up.

I do agree it is how it is and Contador has won but I do not understand how you feel he was the best guy?

If we spin back a few days, Andy Schleck had broke an attack and was ~ 20 metres clear of Alberto Contador. Go forward a couple of days and Andy Schleck leads Alberto Contador all the way up Tourmalet and matches his aggressive sprint break with ease before taking the stage. Finally Andy Schleck finishes relatively close to Alberto Contador in the final TT.

Give me a clear reason as to why Alberto Contador was the 'best guy'

Don't forget he got beaten by a few older/non-GC guys in the Prologue..

plectrum

paulcuthbert wrote:

Don't forget he got beaten by a few older/non-GC guys in the Prologue..

I don't realy care that Lance did well in the prologue as he rode like an absolute loser for the tour as soon as he was out of contention. Gave 0 support to Leipheimer and generally didn't think about either his team or other riders.

mididoctors

plectrum wrote:

The best man didn't win. Schleck was clearly the better cyclist this year.

don't know about clearly... nothing clear about any of it

all that dubious political stuff is a minefield for starters

my take is this

I'm not sure if the better guy won...

they where so closely matched..

my hunch is if contador needed to attack on the tourmalet for time he would not have dropped andy but would have still won the tour by a handfull of secs in the TT

basically the arguments are going to continue and they need a rematch...

Will L

Have to say, I agree with plectrum here. I'm not convinced the best overall rider did win. Overall, felt Schleck had the edge, and that Contador got lucky (which admittedly is an attribute that most champions need at some stage!). Makes next year look a lot more interesting than might have done previously.

mididoctors

plectrum wrote:

paulcuthbert wrote:

Don't forget he got beaten by a few older/non-GC guys in the Prologue..

I don't realy care that Lance did well in the prologue as he rode like an absolute loser for the tour as soon as he was out of contention. Gave 0 support to Leipheimer and generally didn't think about either his team or other riders.

he rode for team GC especially on the tourmalet... he rode no different from any other aging GC contender who just took a complete pasting going into alps


the most surprising thing about lance is the lack of media circus around him... its like no one wants to go there

blazing_saddles

plectrum wrote:

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

As Iain has pointed out a few times, without the peloton sitting up into Spa, it would be Tour over on the third day, so "chaingate" is redundant really.

The best man won over three weeks, even if Andy was better than we expected him to be.

This is such a nonsense reply. Andy Schleck fell on oil i.e. nothing to do with performance. If we take the oil out, take the go slow out and take the chaingate out Andy Schleck would have won.

The best man didn't win. Schleck was clearly the better cyclist this year.

If If If....
I notice you avoid taking out the road blocking crash on stage 3 that gained him over a minute on GC.

The fact is they would be tied for time, using your selective policy.

Then the Tourmalet might have turned out differently.

If if if.

The story of many a GT.

holybinch

I think the main difference is not really between the riders, more between the teams.
Cancellara managed to put Andy in yellow, but the Astana helped AC a lot in the mountains...

samiam

I bet Contador is glad he attacked when andy lost his chain now!!

blazing_saddles

samiam wrote:

I bet Contador is glad he attacked when andy lost his chain now!!

Keeping aside all the chaingate comments. The Spa stage was the most critical this year with the neutralisation. If not Menchov would have won the tour and Hushovd would have won the Green Jersey. So people who keep on talking about the Chain event should do well to remember this.

Mettan

Andy should have been 31 secs and in Yellow going into this TT - its a tradgedy that his chain came off - there are plenty of what-ifs etc (some more credible than others...) , but to be honest, Contador has never really looked significantly better than Andy throughout the tour - on the contrary, Andy has matched Bert throughout - I don't find it convincing that if Alberto were behind by 31 secs, he would have been able to drop Andy on the Tourmalet... - Alberto has just mangaged to edge it in the end and all credit to him, he's a great champion, but there are 2 riders at the top of the sport now.

plectrum

Blazing Saddles wrote:

I notice you avoid taking out the road blocking crash on stage 3 that gained him over a minute on GC.

The fact is they would be tied for time, using your selective policy.

Then the Tourmalet might have turned out differently.

If if if.

The story of many a GT.

Cobbles are part of the game(Andy Schleck lost his mountain lieutenant Frank) ... oil on the road isn't, taking clear advantage of an obvious mechanical fault and then pushing it home for a further ten km on descent is not.

Also as was shown last year when Contador lost time on Armstrong it was down to poot tactical and spatial awareness and perhaps thsio fault was a similar one that put him in the wrong place during stage 3.

plectrum

Blazing Saddles wrote:

samiam wrote:

I bet Contador is glad he attacked when andy lost his chain now!!

Keeping aside all the chaingate comments. The Spa stage was the most critical this year with the neutralisation. If not Menchov would have won the tour and Hushovd would have won the Green Jersey. So people who keep on talking about the Chain event should do well to remember this.

You cannot win a tour if there is motorbike oil over the road!!! How would you know that many of the teams wouldn't have all complained about the motorbike oil i.e. non natural interference in the stage of which I would guess there are various rules and regulations and pressured the tour director to annul the stage.

stagehopper

mididoctors wrote:

the most surprising thing about lance is the lack of media circus around him... its like no one wants to go there

He wouldn't speak to the press today - did a runner straight after the finish into a grey SUV which sped off.

mididoctors

Blazing Saddles wrote:

If if if.

The story of many a GT.

this one more than many thou

it does have status as a controversial tour podium because of all the incident/politics and the margins

you could argue the Giro 2010 was packed full of crashes and incidents but in that case they were dealt with in a more consistent manner... IE they all just kept racing

they all put the hammer down when cadel got dropped in the crosswinds by crashes at the Giro..

I also seem to remember everyone kicking the sh1t out the shack after lance chased back on after a crash as well... in this drama fest of a tour




As a tour it has its place in history because of all the nonsense

going to be remembered..well maybe not menchov'........ the silent assasin

I can rember 87 better than 92 and 2003 better that 2002 (off the top of your head podium 2002 anybody?) I had to think about it for a bit

iainf72

Why is it some people managed to not fall on the Spa stage? ie, the good bike handlers.

Also, on the drop chain stage, I don't believe Bertie pushed it as hard as he could've / shouldve.

Anyway, Andy Schleck said they should've waited for Armstrong when he blew up, so he probably thinks races should be decided by drawing straws

Neil McC

Will L wrote:

On a completely different note - Bradley Wiggins's time looked a lot more impressive than it did initially, with nobody behind him being able to match. Looks like the wind played a fairly big part in the stage result?

JV agrees

Vaughters

Not to spoil everyone's Wiggo bashing, but considering the wind increase today, I'd say Wiggo actually was on par with the top 3 guys. 32 minutes ago via UberTwitter

http://twitter.com/Vaughters

BikingBernie

stagehopper wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

the most surprising thing about lance is the lack of media circus around him... its like no one wants to go there

He wouldn't speak to the press today - did a runner straight after the finish into a grey SUV which sped off.

"I think I’m a week away from a very private life."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstro ... ger-faster

Then again, perhaps the media are just afraid that Armstrong will try to punch them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQsqS-mY3jI

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

Why is it some people managed to not fall on the Spa stage? ie, the good bike handlers.

Also, on the drop chain stage, I don't believe Bertie pushed it as hard as he could've / shouldve.

Anyway, Andy Schleck said they should've waited for Armstrong when he blew up, so he probably thinks races should be decided by drawing straws

with all due respect I totally disagree with whatever point your trying to make...

I dont think andy has too much to complain about... other riders on non GC teams have more to moan about because they were the butt end of all this convenient control freakery..

I expect to hear Thor moan a bit more...

stagehopper

On the wind getting up - all the riders above Wiggins were in well before he started apart from Koos Moerenhout who started an hour before and was just coming into finish. Chris Boardman tweeted that there'd been a noticeable increase in the wind for all the later starters, hence the extremely average times by the GC contenders.

rokkala

iainf72 wrote:

Why is it some people managed to not fall on the Spa stage? ie, the good bike handlers.

Also, on the drop chain stage, I don't believe Bertie pushed it as hard as he could've / shouldve.

Anyway, Andy Schleck said they should've waited for Armstrong when he blew up, so he probably thinks races should be decided by drawing straws

When did Menchov become a member of the 'good bike handler' club? :shock:

rick_chasey

iainf72 wrote:

Why is it some people managed to not fall on the Spa stage? ie, the good bike handlers.

Gesink& Menchov good bike handlers?

Err...

mididoctors

Rick Chasey wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Why is it some people managed to not fall on the Spa stage? ie, the good bike handlers.

Gesink& Menchov good bike handlers?

Err...

they stayed upright

remember Denis had practiced on flagstones covered in olive oil at the giro the year before