Red & Black trail centre routes how much skill required?
Comments
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So, do you believe it's reasonable for beginners to attempt something like the black runs in Chatel? Bearing in mind that we had some experienced DHers with us who race most weekends, and even they shat themselves?0
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yeehaamcgee wrote:So, do you believe it's reasonable for beginners to attempt something like the black runs in Chatel? Bearing in mind that we had some experienced DHers with us who race most weekends, and even they shat themselves?
I'm not saying they should go and try anything really hard BUT if they have their head in it right ie know the risks and that if anything goes wrong that they know they are the only ones to blame and won't go sueing people/trying to get the trail shut then I don't really see to much of a problem.
Obvioiusly DH trails are a bit different to XC trails so for a begginer to go on a really hard DH run I would say no but an easier one, maybe0 -
peter413 wrote:Obvioiusly DH trails are a bit different to XC trails so for a begginer to go on a really hard DH run I would say no but an easier one, maybe
But this falls back into trail grading. You are now agreeing that they shouldn't really be on harder trails until their skill level and confidence are up to it.0 -
yeehaamcgee wrote:So, do you believe it's reasonable for beginners to attempt something like the black runs in Chatel? Bearing in mind that we had some experienced DHers with us who race most weekends, and even they shat themselves?
no.
people should be more honest with themselves about what they are capable of.
I pinballed a couple of guys on xc hardtails mincing down inners dh runs....riding Technical Nightmare (it aint marked...talk to locals) flying round a corner an 2 guys in the middle of the trail mincing down, brakes fully on...
I tried to shout, but all that came out was a kind of loud high pitched scream...they didn't even see me...I went for the middle....spilled them on either side and crashed in a heap in front...
they started with the rider behind has responsibility speech....but the fact is...there was nothing i could do. they did admit the trail was beyond their bikes and ability and it was a bad idea to be there...i said fair enough no harm done..see you at the bottom for a cuppa (what? you mean you don't bring a stove and kettle riding with you...pfff amatuers
), and i'll give you hand to fix your bike! Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.
H.G. Wells.0 -
yeehaamcgee wrote:peter413 wrote:Obvioiusly DH trails are a bit different to XC trails so for a begginer to go on a really hard DH run I would say no but an easier one, maybe
But this falls back into trail grading. You are now agreeing that they shouldn't really be on harder trails until their skill level and confidence are up to it.
Yes and no.
A complete begginer should not be but someone with a bit of experiance but still a begginer, possibly0 -
The problem is, as we all agree, is the nominal nature of just 3 or 4 terms to cover a vast array of riding. I can see why a relative novice can ride one black, think it is ok, then ride another and be completety flummoxed.
The rating system needs improving - and a description added. IE does one 'black' obstacle in 20 miles with no chicken run make the whole course black?0 -
supersonic wrote:The rating system needs improving - and a description added. IE does one 'black' obstacle in 20 miles with no chicken run make the whole course black?
As far as I understand it, yes - the entire trail is graded according to the hardest obstacle/feature that doesn't have an 'official' chicken run.0 -
Hmmm, there we have it, a big downfall - but ultra safe, and I guess that is what our liability nation must have.0
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Some interesting stuff but also some b/s as well I think.
As someone who's got more into mountaining biking over the past year and half (having dabbled a bit in previous years) but who rides with some pretty competent guys (including my brother) I can hopefully give a view of someone who has developed there skills but can remember how hard things felt.
A few points:
- Stop talking about Llandegla black, without a doubt it should be graded red and as such doesn't help clarifying discussion. For example it's easier than most of the Coed y reds and Lee Quarry red.
- Accepting Llandegla black as red then most of the trail centres I've ridden make a degree of sense to me, Llandegla, Coed y Dragons Back etc, Penmachno, Lee Quarry, Glentress Red are red's, Coed y MBR / Beast, Lee Quarry Black, Innerleithen with black options are black and seem to have enough harder riding to deserve a different grading.
Was not quite so sure that Glentress black and Drumlinrig black deserved grade (though Drumlinrig did have one particularly sketchy rooty section which would have been a different kettle of fish in the wet).
- I've also mixed in some natural stuff and while the style is different I don't think it necessarily loads more difficult though does tend to require more slow speed control over high speed commitment. For example imo the descent of Jacobs ladder would be a proper black grade on the above scale but no harder.
- The guys I ride with do some downhilling and I though everone understood that downhill grading is totally different. For a start the fact that body armour and full face is normal should alert you to that! I've done a little bit of downhill on my xc bike e.g. red at cannock but consider it my responsibility to keep out the way of the 'real' riders on the big bikes. To the guy who says the drops on Caddon bank are little pop's just get over yourself! They are proper none rollable drops and are a decent size to be taken on an xc bike without body armour for the vast majority of riders, if you want bigger and faster stuff you're riding downhill so go and look at the downhill tracks.0 -
Ian P
too true.
if someone tried to roll over the caddon bank drops....they would be face first into the trail....they are as big than any other drop on an fc graded xc trail that i have seen.
remembering as well that the fc love a risk assessment!
GT black grading has more to do with its length. the actual technicality is not not any harder than the most rooty rocky parts of the red....
it might be more sustained technical...but really the length of the loop is what gets it its black grade. as stated in the fc guidelines for black grading.Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.
H.G. Wells.0 -
cee wrote:yeehaamcgee wrote:
I pinballed a couple of guys on xc hardtails mincing down inners dh runs....riding Technical Nightmare (it aint marked...talk to locals) flying round a corner an 2 guys in the middle of the trail mincing down, brakes fully on...
I tried to shout, but all that came out was a kind of loud high pitched scream...they didn't even see me...I went for the middle....spilled them on either side and crashed in a heap in front...
If they were capable of riding down it (i'm not sure from your description if they were mincing down on their feet or on their bikes?) then they had every right to be on that trail.
Seems that some people have this strange ida that if thye're not as good as them they shouldn't be there. A couple of times i've had people shout at me for being in their way, as i'm not fast enough. Never mind that i'd never done the trail before and it was very narrow and winding. Technically i had no problem with any of it, but couldnt' ride it nearly as fast as the people who were behind me. added to the fact they never called out to request i let them through, they were pissed off with me when we got to the bottom, making out it was my fault i ruined their run
Most of this thread can be wrapped up as:
1. people who are a danger to themselves and others shouldn't be on a trail
2. It's difficult for people to know when this is a the grading are so variable
3. some people appear to think they're the most important person and anyone who gets in their way shouldn't be allowed on a trail either0 -
mea00csf wrote:cee wrote:
I pinballed a couple of guys on xc hardtails mincing down inners dh runs....riding Technical Nightmare (it aint marked...talk to locals) flying round a corner an 2 guys in the middle of the trail mincing down, brakes fully on...
I tried to shout, but all that came out was a kind of loud high pitched scream...they didn't even see me...I went for the middle....spilled them on either side and crashed in a heap in front...
If they were capable of riding down it (i'm not sure from your description if they were mincing down on their feet or on their bikes?) then they had every right to be on that trail.
they were not capable of riding down it...on ehad both feet on the ground, but straddling the bike, try to get over some roots...the other right beside him...pass i have to admit..didn't have time to look at his feet.
Sure they had as much right as me...but they have to accept that on a DH trail at Innerleithen...faster riders will be approaching with not much visibilty to react to them...
if folk get off and push sections...fine..but we were all lucky with the way it turned out.
these two came and said hi when they got down...40 minutes after I did...from half way up the hill....
fast riders ride inners in 4-5 minutes...I take about 6-7...from the top...so its not like I am the fastest rider in the village or anything...I now im not...I hate getting in faster guys way...and if i loose momentum and stop dead in a technical bit...i make sure i am not in the way of approaching riders.Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.
H.G. Wells.0 -
supersonic wrote:The problem is, as we all agree, is the nominal nature of just 3 or 4 terms to cover a vast array of riding. I can see why a relative novice can ride one black, think it is ok, then ride another and be completety flummoxed.
The rating system needs improving - and a description added. IE does one 'black' obstacle in 20 miles with no chicken run make the whole course black?Mrs Toast wrote:supersonic wrote:The rating system needs improving - and a description added. IE does one 'black' obstacle in 20 miles with no chicken run make the whole course black?
As far as I understand it, yes - the entire trail is graded according to the hardest obstacle/feature that doesn't have an 'official' chicken run.
I like the way they have done things at the cannock dog & monkey trails, there are a few black bits, but there are red options as the main route with a black waymarker in front of the black section, so basically the black parts are like a 'side show' rather than being forced to ride or walk it.
This is far better IMHO than a chicken run with nothing interesting to ride, as you still have the nice red part to ride instead, the trail still has a nice flow about it.0 -
Cannock chase is an excellent example you can be riding certain sections of red and it'll fork off for a black route (which tempting as it was i didn't attempt). Maybe trail builders oughta create black sections and fork off for those who wish not to tackle it. The annoyance is that i was over there, on only my 3rd real off road ride and was literally creaming up the follow the dog and parts of the monkey run and having to slow down for riders who were tootling along in the granny ring taking in the scenery, i'm hardly a rocket ship xc whippet so i can see why more experienced people get frustrated.
With regards to progression I'd strongly suggest instead of going to trail centres to learn on the red routes, hit up the local woods. It's amazing with a little bit of imagination what small lines you can pick up, obstacles you can tackle and terrains you can get to grips with. Steep rutted hills, short techy singletrack sections, steps, jumps etc etc etc all within a mile of my house and probably 99% of everyone elses too. If you can hit these things in your local woods without worry you'll have no problems on a red route, it's evidently the way i learned.0 -
bails87 wrote:Do you know what condone means?
Think it's obvious what he meant, condemn probably. He was miles off base with Pete though.yeehaamcgee wrote:So, do you believe it's reasonable for beginners to attempt something like the black runs in Chatel??
Beginners no, but how about people who've ridden piss-easy blacks elsewhere and think it's going to be comparable? I know that goes back to grading but then that's kind of the point, it's a vicious circle.supersonic wrote:The rating system needs improving - and a description added. IE does one 'black' obstacle in 20 miles with no chicken run make the whole course black?
Nah, in that case it's s**t trail design that makes the whole course black.
Ian P wrote:Was not quite so sure that Glentress black deserved grade .
I think among other things, this is largely about age. If GT black was opening tomorrow, it'd be red IMO, there's a couple of bits that'd be a little harder than average for the grade but by and large it's a red. But it's an older trail and was graded more by the standards of the day. And there's yet another problem with gradings.Uncompromising extremist0 -
cee wrote:Ian P
if someone tried to roll over the caddon bank drops....they would be face first into the trail....they are as big than any other drop on an fc graded xc trail that i have seen.
Rolled over the last drop at Caddon Bank last two times I've been there,no problem..slowly! .0 -
peter413 wrote:Ok, the red at Nevis should be graded red really but they can get away with it sicne not many begginers will go there anyway.
One thing I do find funny is this Orange grading. It doesn't mean anything TBH. Innerleithen is graded orange and so is the FR park at Glentress.
The FR park is easy, everything can be rolled etc etc but DH runs are completely different. They do need to sort out orange grading, either get rid or sort it out so its a proper grade, not just some random colour given to random stuff0 -
Awesome!nick1962 wrote:
Oh, and here's another one!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH-1zv_i ... re=related0 -
I love that second one... FUUUUUUUUUUUncompromising extremist0
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nick1962 wrote:Rolled over the last drop at Caddon Bank last two times I've been there,no problem..slowly! .
sorry...don't believe you...you are the only one that can truly know....
roll the chicken run to the left of the drop...yip...roll over a 4' drop...nope.
for reference...this is it...random image from the web
who reckons the bottom bracket would be all over the lip of the drop and handlebars would reach the ground first...and who reckons they could roll it out at snails pace?Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.
H.G. Wells.0 -
it does look barely rollable, actually. Why you'd bother to just roll it though I have no idea.0
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yeehaamcgee wrote:it does look barely rollable, actually. Why you'd bother to just roll it though I have no idea.
Agree does look like it might be rollable from that pic, looks less likely in the flesh. In reality I guess it is possible to roll some unlikely looking things, in this case I'm pretty sure rolling is harder than dropping it anyway!0 -
damn right someone's photoshoppepd the sky!
During a week up there we had great weather in Glentress, then when we headed to Inners, the heavens opened in a BIG way.0 -
the sun does shine on inners for a brief part of the year...usually mid april...and only if there are no tourists around ;o)
the rest it just slashes it...
My reasoning for saying it is not rollable is that I have seen several people try...all got BB - Rock interface issues, and all bit the trail.Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.
H.G. Wells.0 -
I can believe they're not rollable, it's just in that picture it's not immediately obvious why.
Much more fun to launch off them as fast as possible anyway.0 -
Yeehaa,
Did you by any chance think of coming up to Glentress on Sunday because it absolutely poured down 0 -
no! no, I did not, can't blame me for that!
I was going to head up a mountain though, but I just couldn't be bothered to set off in the rain.0 -
I've seen the big drops at inners rolled, by a mate who couldn't get himself to drop them. The roll-out is pretty good from what I recall so as long as you don't tip over it works.
Funnilly enough it looks a million times scarier and harder to roll it than to drop it but what do I know, when I went there I felt a bit ill just looking at the biggest one never mind trying to ride it. Need to get back at some point so I can at least roll up to the edge THEN bottle it, as opposed to bottling it 2 hours in advance of even seeing them, based on word of mouth
Oh and I got sunburned to hell and back that day Uncompromising extremist0 -
next time someone tries to roll it can they take a video an upload it for us to see the results please!Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.
H.G. Wells.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxD2bmboHqw&feature=related
