Red & Black trail centre routes how much skill required?
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Don't you mean, Glentress Black "Black-long-painful-singletrack"
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peter413 wrote:I know I haven't been to Nevis, yet, but from what I have seen, there is nothing that means the trail must be graded black. It all follows the criteria that allows it be graded red even though most people think it should be a black.
What criteria are those then? The FC says:
"Red grade - difficult trails
* Red grade trails are suitable for: proficient mountain bikers with good off-roading skills.
* Bike required: quality off-road mountain bikes.
* Skills needed: good off-roading skills and techniques to cope with technical trail features.
* Trail and surface types: steeper and tougher, mostly singletrack with technical sections. Expect very variable surface types.
* Gradients or technical trail features: a wide range of climbs and descents of a challenging nature will be present. Expect boardwalks, berms, large rocks, medium steps, drop-offs, cambers and water crossings.
* Suggested fitness level: a higher level of fitness and stamina is required.
Black grade - severe trails
* Black grade trails are suitable for: expert mountain bike users, used to physically demanding routes.
* Bike required: a good quality off-road mountain bike is needed.
* Skills needed: advanced level off-roading skills and technical ability.
* Trail and surface types: as for 'red', but with an expectation of greater challenge and continuous difficulty. Can include any useable trail and might include exposed open hill sections.
* Gradients or technical trail features: expect large, committing and unavoidable technical trail features. Sections will be challenging and variable. Might also have 'downhill' style sections.
* Suggested fitness level: suitable for very active people used to prolonged effort."Uncompromising extremist0 -
So what is there on the Nevis red that isn't in the criteria for it to be able to be graded red0
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dvatc wrote:view this video of spooky wood at glentress trail centre, its a red. no comparison to riding round macc forest area but its fantasic to ride.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdmyxugFMp4
theres seems to be a hell of a lot of air there which I rarely get au nateral,
Is there much air @ degla?0 -
peter413 wrote:So what is there on the Nevis red that isn't in the criteria for it to be able to be graded red
This:
"* Trail and surface types: as for 'red', but with an expectation of greater challenge and continuous difficulty. Can include any useable trail and might include exposed open hill sections. "
You've got to apply the hardest one, otherwise pretty much every black becomes a red by those criteria.
Still, they are s**t criteria and no mistake.Uncompromising extremist0 -
It comes down to what you see as more difficult, it is no where near as hard as the WC track is it and thats black is it not so they have good reason with that one.
Open hill though, yes but so do a lot of blues do they not. Does open hill not refer more to there may be a cliff to drop off and die0 -
Back in the day (cue hovis music) Coed y Brenin didn't have any "grading" but they did have advisory information on what kind of things to expect.
The difference is, it was written by mountain bikers, not some corporate comitte. It made sense.
We also had far fewer numpties who would venture on a mountain bike then, it was still seen as something done by crazy people.
Some, if not most in fact, of CYB's tougher sections have been around since those times, and were ridden using rigid bikes, with rim brakes - Cantilevers were still quite popular back then even.0 -
Forestry Commission wrote:The grades explained:
Cross country singletrack trail grades
Green grade - easy trails
Green grade trails are suitable for: beginners or novice cyclists.
Bike required: most bikes and mountain bike hybrids are suitable.
Skills needed: basic bike skills are required for this grade.
Trail and surface types: these will be relatively flat and wide. Trail surface might be loose, uneven or muddy at times. Might include short flowing singletrack-style sections. Some green routes can take trailers.
Gradients and technical trail features: climbs and descents are mostly shallow. No challenging features.
Suggested fitness level: suitable for most people in good health.
Blue grade - intermediate trails
Blue grade trails are suitable for: intermediate cyclists or mountain bikers with basic off-road riding skills.
Bike required: basic mountain bike or mountain bike hybrid.
Skills needed: basic off-road riding skills to cope with uneven surfaces and small obstacles.
Trail and surface types: as for 'green', plus specially constructed singletrack trails. Trail surface might include small obstacles of root and rock.
Gradients and technical trail features: most gradients are moderate but might include short steep sections. Includes small technical trail features (such as roots and rock).
Suggested fitness level: a good standard of fitness can help.
Red grade - difficult trails
Red grade trails are suitable for: proficient mountain bikers with good off-roading skills.
Bike required: quality off-road mountain bikes.
Skills needed: good off-roading skills and techniques to cope with technical trail features.
Trail and surface types: steeper and tougher, mostly singletrack with technical sections. Expect very variable surface types.
Gradients or technical trail features: a wide range of climbs and descents of a challenging nature will be present. Expect boardwalks, berms, large rocks, medium steps, drop-offs, cambers and water crossings.
Suggested fitness level: a higher level of fitness and stamina is required.
Black grade - severe trails
Black grade trails are suitable for: expert mountain bike users, used to physically demanding routes.
Bike required: a good quality off-road mountain bike is needed.
Skills needed: advanced level off-roading skills and technical ability.
Trail and surface types: as for 'red', but with an expectation of greater challenge and continuous difficulty. Can include any useable trail and might include exposed open hill sections.
Gradients or technical trail features: expect large, committing and unavoidable technical trail features. Sections will be challenging and variable. Might also have 'downhill' style sections.
Suggested fitness level: suitable for very active people used to prolonged effort.
Non-singletrack trail grades
Orange - bike park
Bike parks are suitable for: riders aspiring to an elite level of technical ability; incorporates everything from full on downhill riding to 'big air' jumps.
Trail and surface types: severe constructed trails and/or natural features. All sections will be challenging. Includes extreme levels of exposure or risk. Jumping ability obligatory.
Gradients or technical trail features: will include a range of small, medium and large technical trail features, including downhill trails, freeride sections and mandatory jumps.
Suggested fitness level: a good standard of fitness is recommended but technical skills are more important.
Forest road and similar
Forest roads are suitable for: a wide range of cyclists.
Bike required: most bikes and mountain bike hybrids are suitable
Skills needed: basic map reading will be helpful for roads which are not waymarked or signposted
Trail and surface types: relatively flat and wide. The trail surface might be loose, uneven or muddy at times. These roads might be also be used by vehicles and others including horse riders and dog walkers.
Gradients and technical trail features: gradients can be very variable and might include short, steep sections. Occasional potholes might be present. Routes might not be waymarked or signposted.
Suggested fitness level: a good standard of fitness can help.0 -
peter413 wrote:It comes down to what you see as more difficult, it is no where near as hard as the WC track is it and thats black is it not so they have good reason with that one.
Does open hill not refer more to there may be a cliff to drop off and die
WC route is orange.
The nevis red has a lot of exposure, the boardwalk stuff is fairly straightforward but it's raised and hellishly fast if you're doing it right, so a tiny screwup could be a huge accident. At some points the shortest drop is about 6 feet, other points it's less but onto rock, stuff like that.Uncompromising extremist0 -
Ok, the red at Nevis should be graded red really but they can get away with it sicne not many begginers will go there anyway.
One thing I do find funny is this Orange grading. It doesn't mean anything TBH. Innerleithen is graded orange and so is the FR park at Glentress.
The FR park is easy, everything can be rolled etc etc but DH runs are completely different. They do need to sort out orange grading, either get rid or sort it out so its a proper grade, not just some random colour given to random stuff0 -
Yeah, orange is just "We don't know what to do" The bike park at Kielder is comedy for this, orange 1 dot means "boardwalk 6 inches up, 2 foot across" and orange 2 dots means "boardwalk 9 inches wide with little steps in, IN THE SKY, don't fall off or we'll have to burn it down". No sense of graduation really.
Apparently the "orange bike park" at laggan used to be the blue, now it's scary orange :?Uncompromising extremist0 -
But then the DH runs haven't even got dots.
What is it, no dots (hardest) or 2 dots (easiest) or 1 dot (middle)
And then there is stuff like the timber drop in the FR park, thats 1 dot but the left boardwalk on the essentials is 2 dots (they are basically the same thing, although I do find the timber drop easier), but the others are 1 dot despite the middle being easier IMO0 -
There are things on psychopath in the Glentress freeride park that are not rollable.0
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yeehaamcgee wrote:There are things on psychopath in the Glentress freeride park that are not rollable.
I can do the whole run without getting my wheels off the ground, although I'm not a fan of the skinnies, managed them to start with but have never been able to do them since0 -
yeehaamcgee wrote:that makes sense.
I see a lot of stuff dissappearing from trail centres because too many people assume they're up to it, and complain when they break themselvees.
Take for example this fantastic example of a load of people messing up a tiny drop in llandegla - on the black run.
The drop was at most 1 foot, given enough speed, although the immediate drop from the lip to the gorund was only about 7 inches or so.
Now, despite llandegla being the least challenging black section you'll ever see, it could be argued that none of these numpties (all offence intended) should have been anywhere near anything regarded as a black.
Anyway, that tiny little drop has noe been removed, because so many people were hurting themselves.
It's a pet peve of mine that trail centres are being "domesticated" because people like this who obviously can't ride for crap, believe everything should be rideable, and that enough of them are self righteous enough that they complain.
I mean, seriously, if you can't ride a drop that tiny, you are not ready to take on any moderately challenging terrain.
Keep riding until you get confident enough to ride with some aggression, and quit forcing trails to be smoothed out for those of us who can ride the terrain, and enjoy a challenge.
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Just to go back to page 1, agree with you. MTBers like that who can't even ride that tiny 'drop' shouldn't be classed as a MTBer. All the gear, no idea.0 -
mrfmilo wrote:Just to go back to page 1, agree with you. MTBers like that who can't even ride that tiny 'drop' shouldn't be classed as a MTBer. All the gear, no idea.
I don't really agree with you there TBH.
Some people just can't jump very well on a bike but can beat every single person down a trail and MTBing means different things to different people.
You may see it as lots of jumping, big air etc but others might see it as a relaxing experiance to enjoy the great outdoors. I'd still call riding a green route mountain biking, its just not as exciting as say a red or black0 -
peter413 wrote:mrfmilo wrote:Just to go back to page 1, agree with you. MTBers like that who can't even ride that tiny 'drop' shouldn't be classed as a MTBer. All the gear, no idea.
I don't really agree with you there TBH.
Some people just can't jump very well on a bike but can beat every single person down a trail and MTBing means different things to different people.
You may see it as lots of jumping, big air etc but others might see it as a relaxing experiance to enjoy the great outdoors. I'd still call riding a green route mountain biking, its just not as exciting as say a red or black
Yeah, I agree with you partially. But dropping 5 inches should be part of the fundamental skills learnt when starting out, or not?
Maybe i'm more used to the DH side of things, but I still agree with what I said.0 -
mrfmilo wrote:peter413 wrote:mrfmilo wrote:Just to go back to page 1, agree with you. MTBers like that who can't even ride that tiny 'drop' shouldn't be classed as a MTBer. All the gear, no idea.
I don't really agree with you there TBH.
Some people just can't jump very well on a bike but can beat every single person down a trail and MTBing means different things to different people.
You may see it as lots of jumping, big air etc but others might see it as a relaxing experiance to enjoy the great outdoors. I'd still call riding a green route mountain biking, its just not as exciting as say a red or black
Yeah, I agree with you partially. But dropping 5 inches should be part of the fundamental skills learnt when starting out, or not?
Maybe i'm more used to the DH side of things, but I still agree with what I said.
To do a black route, yes, but just to call yourself an MTBer, no0 -
mrfmilo wrote:
Yeah, I agree with you partially. But dropping 5 inches should be part of the fundamental skills learnt when starting out, or not?
How are they going to learn if riding gods like yourself wont let them on the trail. Everyone starts out wobbling and being scared of little drops the only way to get better is to fall off and try again.
The step at Llandegla you are talking about was removed because someone broke there neck getting it wrong and he wasnt an inexperienced rider just some one who got caught out because he didnt know what was coming and it was a slippery corner when wet.Fig rolls: proof that god loves cyclists and that she wants us to do another lap0 -
The only lines i didn't hit at inners were those three drops at caddon bank, the rest i didn't have a problem with. I may have a go at those drops though next time (or at least the first one or two), they don't look too bad.Northwind wrote:ilovedirt wrote:Red routes at trail centres tend to be rollable everywhere and not what i would call technically challenging, from what i experienced at glentress and inners. In other words, i flew down them my first time with no problems at all. Don't get me wrong though, they are fun.
Did you hit all of the harder lines? The big drops on caddon bank and the left hand line out of pennel's vennel and that?0 -
stubs wrote:mrfmilo wrote:
Yeah, I agree with you partially. But dropping 5 inches should be part of the fundamental skills learnt when starting out, or not?
How are they going to learn if riding gods like yourself wont let them on the trail. Everyone starts out wobbling and being scared of little drops the only way to get better is to fall off and try again.
The step at Llandegla you are talking about was removed because someone broke there neck getting it wrong and he wasnt an inexperienced rider just some one who got caught out because he didnt know what was coming and it was a slippery corner when wet.
Bit in bolt: :roll: Never said I was...
I know everyone starts out as a noob, and maybe what I said isn't completely true when talking bout beginners - I was just using the video as an example - I see so many men out on the trails with all the clothes, expensive bikes with Fox and the like, but can't ride for sh*t. Those are the people who I mean.0 -
mrfmilo wrote:stubs wrote:mrfmilo wrote:
Yeah, I agree with you partially. But dropping 5 inches should be part of the fundamental skills learnt when starting out, or not?
How are they going to learn if riding gods like yourself wont let them on the trail. Everyone starts out wobbling and being scared of little drops the only way to get better is to fall off and try again.
The step at Llandegla you are talking about was removed because someone broke there neck getting it wrong and he wasnt an inexperienced rider just some one who got caught out because he didnt know what was coming and it was a slippery corner when wet.
Bit in bolt: :roll: Never said I was...
I know everyone starts out as a noob, and maybe what I said isn't completely true when talking bout beginners - I was just using the video as an example - I see so many men out on the trails with all the clothes, expensive bikes with Fox and the like, but can't ride for sh*t. Those are the people who I mean.
But maybe they can afford that but are only begginers but have the intentions of improving.
I know I was like that, had fox forks (admitadly very old ones) a nice bike and full DH gear but couldn't ride for $hit, I improved and still am though0 -
peter413 wrote:mrfmilo wrote:stubs wrote:mrfmilo wrote:
Yeah, I agree with you partially. But dropping 5 inches should be part of the fundamental skills learnt when starting out, or not?
How are they going to learn if riding gods like yourself wont let them on the trail. Everyone starts out wobbling and being scared of little drops the only way to get better is to fall off and try again.
The step at Llandegla you are talking about was removed because someone broke there neck getting it wrong and he wasnt an inexperienced rider just some one who got caught out because he didnt know what was coming and it was a slippery corner when wet.
Bit in bolt: :roll: Never said I was...
I know everyone starts out as a noob, and maybe what I said isn't completely true when talking bout beginners - I was just using the video as an example - I see so many men out on the trails with all the clothes, expensive bikes with Fox and the like, but can't ride for sh*t. Those are the people who I mean.
But maybe they can afford that but are only begginers but have the intentions of improving.
I know I was like that, had fox forks (admitadly very old ones) a nice bike and full DH gear but couldn't ride for $hit, I improved and still am though
Yes, but not ALL riders are like that. You can't say there's not riders that fit into the catergory I have described.0 -
I'm not saying that.
What I'm saying is you have no way of knowing which category they fit into so it is wrong of you to judge them in such a way0 -
I call bullcrap on that one.peter413 wrote:yeehaamcgee wrote:There are things on psychopath in the Glentress freeride park that are not rollable.
I can do the whole run without getting my wheels off the ground, although I'm not a fan of the skinnies, managed them to start with but have never been able to do them since
First of all, there's the rock drop after the skinnies, then the three drops (small medium and largeish) then the wallrides, before finishing up on some jumps and the big table.
If you're not commiting yourself, you're not getting the most out of it. And secondly, there's no way you could do the drops wihtout getting at least some air.0 -
They shouldn't be doing black runs then should they? There's drops on the llandegla red run that are bigger than that. Hell, there's KERBS that are bigger than that.peter413 wrote:mrfmilo wrote:stubs wrote:mrfmilo wrote:
Yeah, I agree with you partially. But dropping 5 inches should be part of the fundamental skills learnt when starting out, or not?
How are they going to learn if riding gods like yourself wont let them on the trail. Everyone starts out wobbling and being scared of little drops the only way to get better is to fall off and try again.
The step at Llandegla you are talking about was removed because someone broke there neck getting it wrong and he wasnt an inexperienced rider just some one who got caught out because he didnt know what was coming and it was a slippery corner when wet.
Bit in bolt: :roll: Never said I was...
I know everyone starts out as a noob, and maybe what I said isn't completely true when talking bout beginners - I was just using the video as an example - I see so many men out on the trails with all the clothes, expensive bikes with Fox and the like, but can't ride for sh*t. Those are the people who I mean.
But maybe they can afford that but are only begginers but have the intentions of improving.
I know I was like that, had fox forks (admitadly very old ones) a nice bike and full DH gear but couldn't ride for $hit, I improved and still am though0 -
peter413 wrote:I'm not saying that.
What I'm saying is you have no way of knowing which category they fit into so it is wrong of you to judge them in such a way
If you're talking about the video, no I dont, was using it as an example.
And I know a group of riders, some of them personally and have ridden with them - they fit into that category perfectly - snobby and never really acknowledged me, probably as I was 'just a teen'.What I'm saying is you have no way of knowing which category they fit into so it is wrong of you to judge them in such a way
No I can't / shouldn't judge riders I don't know, but some I can, as in those ^^^^0 -
yeehaamcgee wrote:
I call bullcrap on that one.peter413 wrote:yeehaamcgee wrote:There are things on psychopath in the Glentress freeride park that are not rollable.
I can do the whole run without getting my wheels off the ground, although I'm not a fan of the skinnies, managed them to start with but have never been able to do them since
First of all, there's the rock drop after the skinnies, then the three drops (small medium and largeish) then the wallrides, before finishing up on some jumps and the big table.
If you're not commiting yourself, you're not getting the most out of it. And secondly, there's no way you could do the drops wihtout getting at least some air.
Drops are rollable, two bigger ladders aren't but the little one is and the rock drop is as well, can roll the jumps and there are two lines for the wallrides and the box is fine to roll as well.
It is more fun to get air but it is possible to roll it all0 -
yeehaamcgee wrote:They shouldn't be doing black runs then should they? There's drops on the llandegla red run that are bigger than that. Hell, there's KERBS that are bigger than that.
I wasn't really refering to the video, but I was taken on a black run when I first started, so what.
It's better to try and fail than not try at all0
