Red & Black trail centre routes how much skill required?
Comments
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But if trying and failing leads to folk complaining and threatening legal action, which means those features are taken away for more advanced riders, then they deserve a fist in the face, frankly.0
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yeehaamcgee wrote:But if trying and failing leads to folk complaining and threatening legal action, which means those features are taken away for more advanced riders, then they deserve a fist in the face, frankly.
Thats the kind of people I would call not real mountain bikers.
Mountain Biking is a risky sport, don't go sueing people if YOU get it wrong, its only YOUR fault, not the builders who put it there to be enjoyed0 -
Precisely my point.peter413 wrote:yeehaamcgee wrote:But if trying and failing leads to folk complaining and threatening legal action, which means those features are taken away for more advanced riders, then they deserve a fist in the face, frankly.
Thats the kind of people I would call not real mountain bikers.
Mountain Biking is a risky sport, don't go sueing people if YOU get it wrong, its only YOUR fault, not the builders who put it there to be enjoyed0 -
peter413 wrote:yeehaamcgee wrote:But if trying and failing leads to folk complaining and threatening legal action, which means those features are taken away for more advanced riders, then they deserve a fist in the face, frankly.
Thats the kind of people I would call not real mountain bikers.
Mountain Biking is a risky sport, don't go sueing people if YOU get it wrong, its only YOUR fault, not the builders who put it there to be enjoyed
That's what i've been saying (in a different way)...0 -
It's only the people that sue etc that I call fake mtb'ers, only because the sport poses a risk and you should accept this or not do it, not blame someone else when its your fault0
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What they really should do is put an info board up at the start of the trail, showing a selection of the trail features, to give you an idea of the difficulty that you'll encounter, at the moment you just don't have a clue what you'll come up against because the gradings are so variablethey'll never sort out the grading, so there's really no point in debating that one.
Agree with the guy who said that people find different things difficiult. For instance, i'll do most stuff in in the peaks, but first time i went to a TC and cane across a steep berm and switchbacks, i froze and bailed. You just don't find those type of features on natural trails in England.
The black Innerleithen clip, i would suspect the diffuculty for most of those people wasn't the drop, it's the berm immediately after. stringing two features together is always going to be much more intimidating, because you can't just psych yourself up for it, concentrate and go for it, tho i would agree, most of those riders had no placce on a black route.0 -
How does Lee Quarry red and black rate compared to degla?0
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I think different people have different ideas about
A: Their own ability.
B: Other peoples ability.
Firstly, Ive spent half an hour on TouTube looking for BIG Drops @ Inners ! Caddon Bank !
I'm not interested if this upsets anybody or noy "They are NOT BIG"
See A: Or B: Above !
I have recently rode GISBURN !
This isnt in my opinion a trail centre and it is all the much better for it !
I cant explain the type of riding except for saying its NOT Natural because its been tampered with and its kinda NOT Man made because it follows the Land / ground so well so in some instances its not flowing which keeps you on your toes ! and in others its so sweet it deserves all the credibility everyone i know who rides it has given it !
At the top of some of those runs it clearly States BLACK ! for MONGS who cant read its got a picture of a SKULL & CROSS BONE It even says Full face Helmet !
Why then when i came into the top drop was a W@nker riding up it in full XC attire with two kids bikes under the drop and his Stupid wife stood on the take off taking a picture of said Husband with kids running about !
I,m sorry if people cant ride Black Runs really i am !
But there is no legislating for stoopid people............. Practice somewhere else.
And as some one has quite rightly stated there are kerbs in Edinburgh higher than that drop ! the fact that theres an off camber right hand bend after the tiny drop means this to me as i can ride BLACK hit it hard and fast and hip it onto the down slope ! if i come up short and stack then suck it up ! i took the chance and put the helmet and gloves on what ever else happens is down to the rider.0 -
santacrews wrote:Firstly, Ive spent half an hour on TouTube looking for BIG Drops @ Inners !
You'd be a better judge fo the trail if you'd ridden it
Uncompromising extremist0 -
Northwind
I've been riding at Innerleithen for 10 years !
I was riding at Innerleithen before they put in an XC loop there !
The section that has these aclaimed BIG drops refer to finish near to the bottom of the DH runs, I can remember the trail section being constucted around 2003 or 04
at least a couple of years after Glentress.
My idea of a big drop is not 3 little poppers at the trail head of a tame XC run.
That is why I put A or B above
Imagine if you can a group of riders who want trails with big drops step down gap jumps or step ups ? On a black run !
How can bike riders progress if 10cm steps are to be removed from black runs in an attempt to create the feel good factor for the masses ! We all need to think realistically about this and apply a modicum of common to it !
Black is black ! If u can't ride it or risk injury stay on the red !
Personally there isn't enough unridable black in my opinion, so the taking away of any is not good news.0 -
santacrews wrote:Northwind
Black is black ! If u can't ride it or risk injury stay on the red !
That's the point tho, black is not black. The ratings are SO inconsistent that I can comfortabley ride a black in England, but potentially struggle on a red in Scotland. They should really provide basic info or a few pictures so that people can judge roughly what level of skill is needed
I also think that they should only grade on technical difficulty, and be nothing to do with length or amount of climbing. Most people know what length of routes they're capable of.0 -
true, especially since the length of each trail is clearly stated anyway.0
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mea00csf
I understand the predicament and agree with the colour classification, without sounding too presumptious I look at a trail and never think oooooooh Black best I take precaution and and unclip just in case I need to bail !
On the flip side of this I'm sure there are people who think ah Black ! I've seen that in a Magazine I wonder if !!!!!!!!!
Then when they get there get off their bike leave it in the middle of the trail and stand between a gap jump or in front of a drop !
Surely these kind of adventures happen to other riders an it's not just me ?
If so then u should come out for a ride with me it's a right laugh !
The last time I came down inners I landed on the back of a rider in front of me who rolled over the table top an stopped on the top !0 -
There's braking bumps in llandegla on the downslopes of the tabletops. :roll:0
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peter413 wrote:It comes down to what you see as more difficult, it is no where near as hard as the WC track is it and thats black is it not so they have good reason with that one.
Open hill though, yes but so do a lot of blues do they not. Does open hill not refer more to there may be a cliff to drop off and die
IIRC the Nevis Red was designed as an XC track for people wanting to experience what a DH track is like but without needing a "big bike".
The first year Nevis Red had some bermed raised boardwalk that you had to be fully commited for. You couldn't slowly potter along or you would just fall off; no chicken runs. These sections were removed for this year as I guess it caught too many people out.0 -
santacrews wrote:My idea of a big drop is not 3 little poppers at the trail head of a tame XC run.
Then you obviously want to be on DH trails not red XC trails. It works both ways, if you look at those drops and say "little poppers" then obviously your whole perception is nothing like that of most riders, which is who they're graded for. If you stand in the car park and talk about those "little poppers" how many people will know what you're talking about? If you say "The big drops" everyone will know exactly which ones. You grade trails for the majority of riders.
They're not big in DH terms (though they'd fit right in on the wc dh route up on the moor) but then that's kind of the point, they're on a red XC trail.weescott wrote:The first year Nevis Red had some bermed raised boardwalk that you had to be fully commited for. You couldn't slowly potter along or you would just fall off; no chicken runs. These sections were removed for this year as I guess it caught too many people out.
Can't say as I noticed that, they've actually added a fairly tricky bermed boardwalk section to replace that corner that didn't work but the other boardwalk seemed the same as last year? I did my first lap on it at real slow pace as a sighting lap and there was nothing in the boardwalk that needed any real commitment.Uncompromising extremist0 -
You mean this bit:
Yeah there were a couple of parts that were changed. Can't remember exactly what parts as it was 2 years ago.0 -
Perhaps there needs to be 2 seperate classification systems. A XC type which concentrates on how physically demanding the course is ie a trail with 1,000 ft+ climbs on rough exposed going needing more than average fitness would be a XC black.
A technical course with lots of get it wrong and you will need a ride in a helicopter drops would be a DH black.
I have ridden Nevis Red on my XC full suss wearing a XC lid and some borrowed knee pads and I am not ashamed to admit it was a bit much for me and it scared the piss out of me the speeds I was doing in fact I went about a minute slower on my 2nd run because I knew what was coming. I did it because it was there and thank you very much but I wont go back now I have done it.Fig rolls: proof that god loves cyclists and that she wants us to do another lap0 -
santacrews wrote:............. Practice somewhere else.
Why :?:
Seriously, do you expect anyone to get better if they aren't allowed to practice anywhere because people like you don't want newbies on 'their spot'
That just seems really really unreasonable to me0 -
Went To Cannock Chase Today, not been back long. Did Follow The Dog inc The Monkey Trail (never done Monkey Trail before)
Boy it was tough, 16 miles, hot, dry, bumpy, slippy, steep downhill rock gardens, steep up & downhill rutted tight switchbacks with drops as you turn with big drops of the edge if you screw up. Fast banked swooping bits & the Rollers are fun! You have stay focussed continualy! Quite a few crashes today, one sounded nasty. Found some bits very tricky & was just hanging on a couple of times.
Glad to get back in one piece bar a few small grazes & feeling knackered.
Great fun (I thinK) & day out though!
As tiring & more technical than as the 30 miler I did in The Peaks a couple of weeks ago.0 -
peter413 wrote:santacrews wrote:............. Practice somewhere else.
Why :?:
Seriously, do you expect anyone to get better if they aren't allowed to practice anywhere because people like you don't want newbies on 'their spot'
That just seems really really unreasonable to me
I,m sorry that it seems really really unreasonable to you ! however
I dont think "newbies" should be tackling BLACK runs ! i,m sure thats what this whole thread was intended around !
I READ THE COLOUR CLASSIFICATION AS FOLLOWS
GREEN: Family's Centre Parks, Forest roads
BLUE: Some forest road and a bit of adventure on some single track
RED: If you can ride GREEN & BLUE feel free to crack on ! HELMET a must pads optional;
ORANGE: Dunno ? Bike Parks.
BLACK: If you can ride GREEN / BLUE / RED then progress, However the fact that you are wearing a helmet and probably padded up means one thing, there's a good chance something could go wrong..................
Its not an open invitation to litter up a black trail with NEWBIES !
It is in fact a WARNING !
Not only does this lead to the Mongs who cant abide to the warning signs hurt and injured it also results in the rider Who thinks he is riding a run with other skilled riders becoming sprottled because its really really unreasonable for unskilled riders to not be able to walk stuff they have no intention of riding over !
For gods sake its people like you that get peole hurt, your probably one of the Hard Core Elite riders that condones the wearing of a helmet because it clashes with your Bike !
I could take my Nephew riding to Wharncliffe ! its not even graded, now that would be really really unfair ! he is a Newbie ! so in your unreasonable statement who is the idiot Me or You ?
I think people need to get a grip and get a reality check ! its one thing fawning over YouTube at drops and jumps and quite another getting out there rolling into a drop and cleaning it !
I think its reasonable to summise that there should be no grading system and we can all ride where we like !
That way we can all be Reasonable to each other !0 -
Hard core elite rider eh? I wish
Try a teenager who has been riding for just over a year.
You are saying people should not be able to practice just because it is for more experianced riders, well maybe some people are trying to become better riders by pushing their limits, so why shouldn't they be allowed to ride wherever they want.
I know I go on plenty of trails I shouldn't be on and yes, I maybe walk some bits but in the end its fun and it increases my skill level, and in the end, the whole pointing of mtbing is fun
And blues can be very good fun and a little more than a little bit of singletrack. Take the Glantress Blue for example, plenty of experianced riders ride it just for a bit of fun0 -
Peter,
The original poster asked,
Red & Black Trail centre routes, How much skill is required ?
By youre own posts what you are saying is this !
NOT MUCH ! IF ANY !
You stick to the black runs then and i'll play on the blue ones "seeing as they are so much fun"
I think the general idea is that you learn youre skills and then progress onto black that way you can avoid risk & injury to both yourself and fellow riders,
I feel quite strongly about this as you can probably see from my posts, I have had the unfortunate happen to me whilst riding where i ended up having a dog run out after me on a run, i ended up coliding with a 9 year old girl who was out riding with her Dad and the Family pet, she had some pretty bad injuries, to her head, hip, broken leg and half a ripped off ear from my brake lever / bars as well as internal bruising. It was my fault as i had NO respect for other trail users.................
i would NOT expext to see inexperienced riders littering a fast BLACK run at any Trail Centre ! By the same token I would not hammer down a GREEN family trail wearing Full Face Helmet, goggles & Body armour on a big bike with triple clamp forks at full tilt bowling everyone out of the way !
I,m clearly in the minority here and this topic has been done to the death !0 -
To clear up and get on topic,
I'm a natural rider in terms of terrain, peaks/moorland + unsculpted/unsignposted
I wanted to compare this kind of riding technically to a red or black route.
Some great replies so far - thanks
What it seems to have shown is red/black varies so greatly between different trailcentres its hard to advise.
Best suggestion i've read would be to have
Length/Climbing grade = blue/red/black
Technical/skills greade = blue/red/black
With a brief synopsis of what to expect on the ride.
I'm going to give Degla a try in a few weeks as my first trailcentre ride, then perhaps Lee Quarry, which I could do with some feedback on how it compares to degla in red/black rating.0 -
santacrews wrote:i ended up coliding with a 9 year old girl who was out riding with her Dad and the Family pet, she had some pretty bad injuries, to her head, hip, broken leg and half a ripped off ear from my brake lever / bars as well as internal bruising. It was my fault as i had NO respect for other trail users.................
Jesus christ! Where were you riding? How the hell did you do that!?! You really shouldn't be riding beyond what you can see, in terms of braking distance, when there are likely to be other people around.
As for the rest of your posts, frankly, they don't make a huge amount of sense.think the general idea is that you learn your skills and then progress onto black that way you can avoid risk & injury to both yourself and fellow riders,
I agree with that.
But this:
?!?!For gods sake its people like you that get peo[p]le hurt, you'r[e] probably one of the Hard Core Elite riders that condones the wearing of a helmet because it clashes with your Bike !
Do you know what condone means? In any case, how does Peter413 not wearing a helmet lead to other people getting hurt?0 -
Red Route wrote:Went To Cannock Chase Today, not been back long. Did Follow The Dog inc The Monkey Trail (never done Monkey Trail before)
Boy it was tough, 16 miles, hot, dry, bumpy, slippy, steep downhill rock gardens, steep up & downhill rutted tight switchbacks with drops as you turn with big drops of the edge if you screw up. Fast banked swooping bits & the Rollers are fun! You have stay focussed continualy! Quite a few crashes today, one sounded nasty. Found some bits very tricky & was just hanging on a couple of times.
Glad to get back in one piece bar a few small grazes & feeling knackered.
Great fun (I thinK) & day out though!
As tiring & more technical than as the 30 miler I did in The Peaks a couple of weeks ago.
Totally agree. Ive only been into mtb'ing for 6months. The first time I went I did Degla blue in the morning, then the red in the afternoon on an old banger of a bike. £rd time I went I was on the black so assumed that I must be a natural! then went to Cannock and did the Monkey expecting to be able to fly round it, and how wrong I was! Very technical and a few times I was hanging on for dear life!
To be fair I was a little hung ove from the night before and the first time I do any trail I find it difficult. If I wen again Id probably find it much easier.
How fast are those couple of long straigh downhill sections?!! Just a long wide gravelly track on a serious incline (decline??)...anyway downhill. I hit that flat out and didnt brake. Would love to have had a speedo on to see what I got up to lol0 -
santacrews wrote:Peter,
I feel quite strongly about this as you can probably see from my posts, I have had the unfortunate happen to me whilst riding where i ended up having a dog run out after me on a run, i ended up coliding with a 9 year old girl who was out riding with her Dad and the Family pet, she had some pretty bad injuries, to her head, hip, broken leg and half a ripped off ear from my brake lever / bars as well as internal bruising. It was my fault as i had NO respect for other trail users.................
I think the unfortunate happened to the small girl you ran over, not you.
Perhaps these people you are so pissed off with have done other black rated trails with no problems. There are many trails where a rider could easily do 95% of the trail with one or two features they can't, does this mean they can't use the trail as they may feel they have to walk a section?santacrews wrote:without sounding too presumptious I look at a trail and never think oooooooh Black best I take precaution and and unclip just in case I need to bail !
really? even when you weren't confident on everything. The time in question was the first time i ever encountered a berm. it was steep and dropped away to the side. Not the best place for a first attempt. Maybe it's the people who ride past their abiliteis in areas where the consequences are high if they fail whho should be stopped from using trails, they're the ones who are going to break their necks/backs/die leading to trail closures or "dumbing down". those who recognise they're out of their depth and move out of the way of the trail are no problems.....0 -
capoz77 wrote:What it seems to have shown is red/black varies so greatly between different trailcentres its hard to advise.
I think this is the problem when trying to compare.
I don't know for certain, but it seems most trails are graded on Difficulty/Length at a local level.
I ride at Thetford a lot (because it's close), but I've heard (read) that the Red would qualify for Blue status at most other places. I think the colour "Grading" is just to show Black - difficult trail, Red - Intermediate, Blue - Easy, Green - Family.
Maybe there should be a National Standard. Or is there one already?0 -
Just for the record, I do wear a helmet, quite often a full face on reds or harder.
Santacrews
Where, in any of my posts did I say that not much skill is required to ride a red or black trail
What I am getting at is you are saying everyone should go and "practice somewhere else" so how do you expect people to progress if they cannot practice new skills
I wouldn't expect to see innexperianced riders trying out even a red, never mind a black but if they look like they are really trying and not there because they have no idea what is going on, I don't think 'what a tosser, get off the trail', what I actually think is 'good for them for giving it a go'
And clearly you have never done any decent blue runs if you think they are all $hit, I know plenty of DH type guys that love the blue at Glentress just because it isn't to serious, its just good fun0 -
mea00csf wrote:Maybe it's the people who ride past their abiliteis in areas where the consequences are high if they fail whho should be stopped from using trails, they're the ones who are going to break their necks/backs/die leading to trail closures or "dumbing down".
Don't know the exact details, but this has happened at Thetford.
Leading to the small techy "Northshore" parts of the Red being removed.
Depite the many warning signs.0
