Tour de Suisse Stage 4 **SPOILER**

cougie

Its not shoulders - Hausslers front wheel hits Cavs back wheel - taking them both down.

To me it looked like Cav was drifting off his line to his left, and Haussler may have been moving right slightly. But I reckon it was mainly Cavs fault - if he had sprinted straight - I doubt it would have happened.

How lucky was Flecha - rode straight through the middle of the carnage !

SpaceJunk

Tusher wrote:

Doobz and Stefrees- wow, you're right.

Cav is completely innocent.


But, of course, deep down, we all knew that.

No wonder he's raging. One moment he's on target for a win, the next he's on the deck being run over by all and sundry.

On this basis, it's Haussler who should be fined and docked 30 seconds (for all the difference that'll make to a sprinter).


Although, no malicious intent from Barbie either, it's just been an accident. It's a dangerous game and these things happen.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or honest in your appraisal here.

** completely innoncent ** ????

tomb8555

Rick Chasey wrote:

I wonder how the crash would have played out had Cavendish been on metal rims...

Exactly the same. The wheel bending like that is a common outcome of a crash like that, not a cause. Seen it plenty of times at Hillingdon where someone's swerved wide in the last corner and taken a load of people out.



Caused by the rider behind the guy in orange. You can just spot his wheel at a crazy angle.

AidanR

cougie wrote:

Its not shoulders - Hausslers front wheel hits Cavs back wheel - taking them both down.

To me it looked like Cav was drifting off his line to his left, and Haussler may have been moving right slightly. But I reckon it was mainly Cavs fault - if he had sprinted straight - I doubt it would have happened.

How lucky was Flecha - rode straight through the middle of the carnage !

Sorry, but you're completely wrong - have you seen the overhead footage? Cav is maybe 3 inches further forward than Haussler. For all intents and purposes they were side-by-side. There is simply no way that his back wheel was taken out by Haussler's front wheel. From all camera angles you can see their shoulders touch.

SpaceJunk

Doobz wrote:

Very tough one to call from the pics as it looks like they are both in the wrong a bit

I agree, both appear to be in the wrong.

It would be interesting to determine the cause of HH's front wheel turning into Cav's.

It's hard to tell from the this shot, but could their elbows locked, causing HH to turn right?

Cav was moving past HH at the time, so I wonder if the initial contact was elbows???

andrew_s

It looked to me like Cav was drifting across, and Haussler dug his shoulder into Cav's armpit/side to fend him off.

It's interesting to compare the Pez photo with the Bikeradar photo.
On Pez, Cav has apparently only just started to go down, and has a broken front wheel.
On Bikeradar, he's apparently about to hit the deck, but has an intact front wheel.
Did the wheel repair itself? Did Cav bounce?

disgruntledgoat

I don't doubt there was no malice involved Tusher, but that's not bad luck. He's gone against everything he'll have been taught about sprinting twice in 300m and as a result ridden into the side of another rider who, whilst fading and really throwing his bike, has come off a wheel and held his line to that point. Its unsafe, poor sprinting from Cav.

And that's coming from a Cav fan!

nferrar

Yeah looks like as Cav drifts over, Haussler reacts and goes to fend him off with his shoulder but Cavs a bit in front so Haussler ends up leaning over more than he anticipated which takes him off-balance and causes his bars to twist sending his front wheel into Cav's and folds it. Still think Cav deserves the penalty for moving over so much but 99/100 that would probably just have been a bit of barging as usually happens in bunch sprints and no crash so I don't think Cav deserves any flak from the peloton.

frenchfighter

At the end of the day, had Cav sprinted in a straight line there wouldn't have been a crash.

Yes Haussleur comes slightly off his line, but that would have been perfectly fine if Cav was not 1.5m swinging.

You can watch the Cycling.tv video and measure how far H and C are from the barriers with a ruler @28secs then at @32secs to see just how much more C moves than H.

Either way, not a big deal I think. (Unlike Pettachi taking out all the sprinters for his Belgian win last year, and then kept his win).

No_Ta_Doctor

andrew_s wrote:

It's interesting to compare the Pez photo with the Bikeradar photo.
On Pez, Cav has apparently only just started to go down, and has a broken front wheel.
On Bikeradar, he's apparently about to hit the deck, but has an intact front wheel.
Did the wheel repair itself? Did Cav bounce?

It's a split second where his wheel is folded, it springs back as soon as HH's wheel comes back off it. If you watch the vid you'll have to be fairly focussed to notice it.

Kléber

Looks like the rim broke but the spokes and the tub pulled it back into shape, at least when it's in the air and without any weight on it.

No_Ta_Doctor

I'd be interested in seeing what happened when Cav goes all the way out to the barriers earlier, was he closing the door on someone or was he forced out - looks like both Ciolek and HH make quite a swerve as well. Might be a contributory factor if he was forced that way, either through rush of blood to the head or feeling he had a moral right to the centre line somehow, or even just a slight lack of awareness of exactly where he was on the road after zig-zagging across it so violently - anyone got a slow-mo or overhead?

Pross

My tuppence. Cav was definately riding at an angle but it was constant, he didn't swerve or anything. Haussler the same but to a lesser degree. Is it possible they started their lines based on the barriers which we saw on the previous lap were designed to create a funnel and I wasn't surprised at all to see a crash (especially with the roundabouts and corners on the approach that forced riders out of position). Cav did put in a dangerous manoeuvre earlier in the sprint though when someone jumped early and he was boxed in. To be honest it was lucky no-one was more seriously injured, it was the worst bunch sprint crash I can remember for a good few years.

Great bit of handling by Flecha, very un Sky like! Maybe he can give the others some lessons

glauciaregina9

I thought it looked like Cavendish just yanked a bit hard on his handlebar, causing his front wheel to slide across and into Haussler...

(although Cav was already slowly drifting across to his left at this point :-) )

camerone

i think the last 2 pages are a fair summary. i really like Cav , and think it was 70% his fault. it wouldnt have happened had he stayed on line, but at the point of impact haussler turned in too, slight dip of shoulder - i imagine as a brace rather than malicious.
the organisers seem to agree, a 30 second penalty isnt representative of them thinking it was too severe a transgression.
really bad crash, worst i've seen for a while, hope haussler ok to challenge in tdf sprints, like i say i like Cav and would like to see some close sprints in the tour.

also have to say HTC lost control 1.5km's out, Cavendish only had Renshaw from then on and this i am sure contributed as the pace at the beginning of the sprint was not so high and caused a congested final 200m.

some of the sky trains this year would have delivered him better 8)

deejay

NapoleonD wrote:

closeup of Cav's cardboard rim...

Is this what happens at Hillingdon. ??
The shiet carbon rim is what threw Cavendish off.

The speed of this action is represented by the polka dot dot guy arriving on that lump of shiete.

Pross

How do you work out that the wheel caused it? The wheel only folded after impact, he'd have probably been going down hard in any case.

deejay

Pross wrote:

How do you work out that the wheel caused it? The wheel only folded after impact, he'd have probably been going down hard in any case.

Impact with What ???" Two guys rubbing shoulders ???
Pictures speak louder than prattle. I think the little manx needs a round wheel to continue otherwise without it being round we know where he is going.
As I said earlier that it is to do with "Side Stresses" and the carbon strength cannot cope with it.

Homer J

Don't know much about pro riders but KOM in the sprint with Cav??

Cumulonimbus

No tA Doctor wrote:

I'd be interested in seeing what happened when Cav goes all the way out to the barriers earlier, was he closing the door on someone or was he forced out - looks like both Ciolek and HH make quite a swerve as well.

Looked to me like cav jumped across to Ciolek's wheel and was then forced to swerve dangerously due to Haussler barging into him?

Was lucky for Petacchi that he eased up at that point.

Cumulonimbus

Homer J wrote:

Don't know much about pro riders but KOM in the sprint with Cav??

I assumed it was that too but i think it is actually the Points jersey

AidanR

Hmm, OK, I'm modifying my explanation a bit - I still think that the fact both were rocking side-to-side is significant, and that there was some unfortunate timing in that Haussler was rocking towards Cav but Cav rocking away from Haussler at the point of impact. However, it seems that the main thing that brought them down wasn't Cav simply being knocked off balance, but Haussler's front wheel riding up the rim of Cav's wheel, collapsing it. Bit of a freak accident really.

Of course, none of that changes the fact that Cav drifted right over into Haussler, and looking at the overhead it wasn't down to being funnelled by barriers.

greasedscotsman

Tusher wrote:

Cycling Weekly reporting "We think he's okay physically, even if mentally he's shaken up and he's very angry," added team manager Rolf Aldag.

He's probably angry with the internet forum experts

pitchshifter

I think Cav had the better of Ciolek hence jumping infront of him getting anyone on his wheel off his wheel in the process. Cav was also ahead of Haussler.

Haussler caused the crash as much as Cavendish. They both went off line.

One thing is for sure Cavendish is showing signs of lack of confidence.

frenchfighter

Pross wrote:

it was the worst bunch sprint crash I can remember for a good few years.

This last year was pretty bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atLARyU24kU

Maurice Thepity

Unbelievably Norman Stanley Flecha rides through the gap just before Boonen goes down and closes it off then manages to swerve and avoid hitting Haussler’s head with his pedal.

Pross

deejay wrote:

Pross wrote:

How do you work out that the wheel caused it? The wheel only folded after impact, he'd have probably been going down hard in any case.

Impact with What ???" Two guys rubbing shoulders ???
Pictures speak louder than prattle. I think the little manx needs a round wheel to continue otherwise without it being round we know where he is going.
As I said earlier that it is to do with "Side Stresses" and the carbon strength cannot cope with it.

From what I saw Haussler's bike hit the wheel which caused it to collapse. I could be wrong but I don't think it broke without direct contact :?

RichN95.

Maurice Thepity wrote:

Unbelievably Norman Stanley Flecha rides through the gap just before Boonen goes down and closes it off then manages to swerve and avoid hitting Haussler’s head with his pedal.

And he was so cool and calm about it. It was like something out of The Matrix.

sonny73

Well the race have apportioned blame on Cav: http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/473403/cavendish-fined-for-causing-suisse-sprint-crash.html

No_Ta_Doctor

deejay wrote:

Pross wrote:

How do you work out that the wheel caused it? The wheel only folded after impact, he'd have probably been going down hard in any case.

Impact with What ???" Two guys rubbing shoulders ???
Pictures speak louder than prattle. I think the little manx needs a round wheel to continue otherwise without it being round we know where he is going.
As I said earlier that it is to do with "Side Stresses" and the carbon strength cannot cope with it.

Haussler rides over Cav's front wheel. Whether it folded or not there was no way they were both staying up at that point.