Massively offtopic: 'future financial dependants'

wgwarburton

DonDaddyD wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Ex-pat scot wrote:

Without trying to scare you (oops! too late), a more realistic picture is:
You spend each month:
£1000 on mortgage.
£1000 on food, fuel, child clothes & shoes & nappies & other essentials
£1000 on bills - utilities, repairs, swimming lessons, toddler groups
£0 divided between yourself and savings.

Isn't this again just about how you choose to budget allocate and where you choose to shop etc than real life allocation?

....that assumes a 'take home' pay of £3k a month so you need a salary of £48k by the time HMRC get their chunk

So?

More like £52K, I think. I don't see car costs in there, either (apart from fuel), and for a Merc or Honda that's probably going to amount to a fair chunk, what with depreciation, insurance, maintenance and potentially finance, too.
Will you be sticking to one car for the family? Children can be hard on resale values for upmarket vehicles.

I don't know what sort of deposit/mortgage payments would be needed to finance a large house with garage in your area, but my suspicion is that £1000 month implies a very substantial deposit.

I guess what it comes down to is that most of us have found that the combined impact of increased expenditure on children and the reduction in family income has made it difficult to maintain our lifestyles.

I think the issue that is moot here is the "my money" concept. It's all the family's money- I simply wouldn't go out and spend a grand on a shiny new fixie because I could be spending it on something that the whole family would enjoy. "Providing for the family" doesn't mean (for me, anyway, and others judging by the postings we've seen) that a budget is set and "they" live within it while "I" go and buy toys...
To my mind the level of financial security that allows everyone to have whatever they want (even within some semblance of reason) is a long way above my (not insubstantial) income... I would probably classify that as being "rich", and I'm not rich... though I am well aware that I am earning more money than most.

Cheers,
W.

Stevo_666

DonDaddyD wrote:

Why would I need to hide my spendings from my girlfriend/wife if:

i) All the bills are paid
ii) The family is provided for and looked after

Agreed, that's the way it should be and my conscience is clean on the two points above. However when the finances are a bit 'marginal' and/or she is not financially independent, this can become a bone of contention.

woodford2barbican

Here is some advice I took from a friend 10 yrs ago, when I was 25 and he was 28 with 2 kids under 3.

He said

- you are never ready
- if you wait until you are ready you will wait until it is too late.

My thoughts on the matter?

- it is more about what you gain not what you lose

DonDaddyD

rhext wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

My budget will secure money so that I can develop professionally to get a better job, earn more money and provide more for my family. But should I want a 'toy' I want to manage the family budget in such a way that I'm not a broken man with nothing in my pocket.

When you get that budget sorted out, any chance of posting it? I don't know about everyone else, but I'd love to have access to a budget like that. I thought I had one, once, but every time I try to take cash out of the 'left over for savings and stuff' account, I find there's nothing there.

I just can't accept that there is no way of effectively managing your personal finances the minute you have a child.

lost_in_thought

DonDaddyD wrote:

rhext wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

My budget will secure money so that I can develop professionally to get a better job, earn more money and provide more for my family. But should I want a 'toy' I want to manage the family budget in such a way that I'm not a broken man with nothing in my pocket.

When you get that budget sorted out, any chance of posting it? I don't know about everyone else, but I'd love to have access to a budget like that. I thought I had one, once, but every time I try to take cash out of the 'left over for savings and stuff' account, I find there's nothing there.

I just can't accept that there is no way of effectively managing your personal finances the minute you have a child.

I think (from a child-free perspective) that what people are saying is more along the lines of 'you would not believe how much children cost, but they're worth it'.

UndercoverElephant

WGWarburton wrote:

I think the issue that is moot here is the "my money" concept. It's all the family's money- I simply wouldn't go out and spend a grand on a shiny new fixie because I could be spending it on something that the whole family would enjoy. "Providing for the family" doesn't mean (for me, anyway, and others judging by the postings we've seen) that a budget is set and "they" live within it while "I" go and buy toys...
To my mind the level of financial security that allows everyone to have whatever they want (even within some semblance of reason) is a long way above my (not insubstantial) income... I would probably classify that as being "rich", and I'm not rich... though I am well aware that I am earning more money than most.

Cheers,
W.

Spot on. If you are the sole provider for a family, I can't understand how you could think that the money is yours.

Clever Pun

TailWindHome wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Ex-pat scot wrote:

Without trying to scare you (oops! too late), a more realistic picture is:
You spend each month:
£1000 on mortgage.
£1000 on food, fuel, child clothes & shoes & nappies & other essentials
£1000 on bills - utilities, repairs, swimming lessons, toddler groups
£0 divided between yourself and savings.

Isn't this again just about how you choose to budget allocate and where you choose to shop etc than real life allocation?

That seems a pretty realistic breakdown to me.

However that assumes a 'take home' pay of £3k a month so you need a salary of £48k by the time HMRC get their chunk

It's more than 50k...

and baring that in mind £1000 for bills and mortgage is very low indeed

Edit

DDD wrote:

Why would I need to hide my spendings from my girlfriend/wife if:

i) All the bills are paid
ii) The family is provided for and looked after

Seriously, I'm not into someone else telling me or controlling what I can and cannot buy with my money once all my financial responsibilities have been taken care of. There is also the point that things I place value and importance in Ms DDD may not, like a new PC. So I will buy it with my own money.

I used to think the same as you... I went to buy a tattoo and the missus got really narked.. cause she deemed we didn't have enough.. when I... I knew I did... Logic doesn't work I'm afraid

tailwindhome

WGWarburton wrote:

"Providing for the family" doesn't mean (for me, anyway, and others judging by the postings we've seen) that a budget is set and "they" live within it while "I" go and buy toys...

Buns, as he usually does, hits the nail square and centre.

R_T_A

WGWarburton wrote:

I think the issue that is moot here is the "my money" concept. It's all the family's money- I simply wouldn't go out and spend a grand on a shiny new fixie because I could be spending it on something that the whole family would enjoy. "Providing for the family" doesn't mean (for me, anyway, and others judging by the postings we've seen) that a budget is set and "they" live within it while "I" go and buy toys...
To my mind the level of financial security that allows everyone to have whatever they want (even within some semblance of reason) is a long way above my (not insubstantial) income... I would probably classify that as being "rich", and I'm not rich... though I am well aware that I am earning more money than most.

Cheers,
W.

+1 - well said that man. I've got a 20 month old with another on the way. My wife has given up work, and we're coping fine. It just means we have watch what we spend and you quickly realise a lot of things that were "essential" quickly become luxuries.

For example, I commute on a £500 bike instead of a £1000 bike because I couldn't justify the amount (although really wanted it!).

DonDaddyD

To my mind the level of financial security that allows everyone to have whatever they want (even within some semblance of reason) is a long way above my (not insubstantial) income... I would probably classify that as being "rich", and I'm not rich... though I am well aware that I am earning more money than most.

I do alright.

All of this money stuff is perplexing.

It's also nigh-impossible to discuss because:

- Everyones perspective of expense and value is different. Some people shop in Waitrose, I see that as a waste of money.

- We can only speculate on how much each other earns we can only speculate based on our own experiences and pay levels.

More like £52K, I think. I don't see car costs in there, either (apart from fuel), and for a Merc or Honda that's probably going to amount to a fair chunk, what with depreciation, insurance, maintenance and potentially finance, too.
Will you be sticking to one car for the family? Children can be hard on resale values for upmarket vehicles.

I don't know what sort of deposit/mortgage payments would be needed to finance a large house with garage in your area, but my suspicion is that £1000 month implies a very substantial deposit.

Many families manage to have a car (nice, new or otherwise) and children.

I haven't factored in the Honda's costs but it shouldn't cost much more to run than my current car. The VED is about the same and it should be more economical based on the driving I do. I don't do car finance. (The Merc, again, is more aspirations over the next few years). I want one.

The £1000 mortgage post wasn't an indication of how much mortgage I am, would or want to pay it was just an example of how salary allocation could work.

I think the issue that is moot here is the "my money" concept. It's all the family's money- I simply wouldn't go out and spend a grand on a shiny new fixie because I could be spending it on something that the whole family would enjoy.

Why can't you do both.
Buy something the whole family could enjoy and save for your fixie?

cee

DonDaddyD wrote:

Why would I need to hide my spendings from my girlfriend/wife if:

i) All the bills are paid
ii) The family is provided for and looked after

Seriously, I'm not into someone else telling me or controlling what I can and cannot buy with my money once all my financial responsibilities have been taken care of. There is also the point that things I place value and importance in Ms DDD may not, like a new PC. So I will buy it with my own money.

do you not think the whole 'my money' thing is a bit of a red flashing light for someone thinking about marriage and children. Surely 'my' becomes 'ours'...and vice-versa...hers becomes 'ours'?

Not a dig...honest question.

edit...maybe didn't read until the end of the thread...someone else has said this too.

rhext

DonDaddyD wrote:

rhext wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

My budget will secure money so that I can develop professionally to get a better job, earn more money and provide more for my family. But should I want a 'toy' I want to manage the family budget in such a way that I'm not a broken man with nothing in my pocket.

When you get that budget sorted out, any chance of posting it? I don't know about everyone else, but I'd love to have access to a budget like that. I thought I had one, once, but every time I try to take cash out of the 'left over for savings and stuff' account, I find there's nothing there.

I just can't accept that there is no way of effectively managing your personal finances the minute you have a child.

That's not what I'm saying. You have to manage your personal finances effectively when you have a child. What I'm saying is that there tends to be precious little left over, and always something 'family-related' to spend it on.

Your budget view is very clean: the cost of providing for a family is £x, I earn £y, therefore I always have £y-£x to spend on myself at the end of the month. But real life doesn't seem to work out that way. Just as I'm patting myself on the back that I have actually managed to save £y-£x this month, the car starts making strange noises, or I'm told that I have to buy a costume if junior is going to appear in the dance show she's been rehearsing for for the last 6 months. I mean, I don't have to buy it, but trying to explain to mother and daughter that it's my money and I'd rather spend it on an evening out with my mates - well, it's easier just to pay over the cash!

If it helps, I'm well aware that there are plenty of people who do manage their finances in the way you describe: pay over the housekeeping and spend the remainder on themselves. My own view is that this approach places a very unfair division of responsibility on the non-wage-earner. Can't afford that costume? Must be your fault because you didn't save enough from the food budget! Try and make sure she's stopped crying by the time I get back from the pub would you!

I have a pretty well developed budget, which I maintain. For large-scale discretionary expenditure, I discuss with my wife what we're going to do. I'm currently in a situation where our washing machine is on its last legs and I'd like a new mountain bike. I could say "save for the washing machine out of the housekeeping". But I'm not going to![/i]

tailwindhome

Clever Pun wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

However that assumes a 'take home' pay of £3k a month so you need a salary of £48k by the time HMRC get their chunk

It's more than 50k...

True

£48k was only a very rough estimate to illustrate the salary required

DonDaddyD

lost_in_thought wrote:

I think (from a child-free perspective) that what people are saying is more along the lines of 'you would not believe how much children cost, but they're worth it'.

Yeah, I get that, but they are also saying. "They get paid hand over all their money to the baby and missus and that's it." Both missus and baby get new shoes and Daddy gets needle and thread to repair his shoes from the change...

That's the bit I can't get my head round. In fact this guy explains it best:

RTA wrote:

+1 - well said that man. I've got a 20 month old with another on the way. My wife has given up work, and we're coping fine. It just means we have watch what we spend and you quickly realise a lot of things that were "essential" quickly become luxuries.

For example, I commute on a £500 bike instead of a £1000 bike because I couldn't justify the amount (although really wanted it!).

But you still commute on a bike. But still spent money on a bike. And you have a baby? Heavens no!

The way some people in this thread are posting, its like once you've had a baby you can't spend money, ever, because you won't have any or won't be allowed to.

DonDaddyD

cee wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Why would I need to hide my spendings from my girlfriend/wife if:

i) All the bills are paid
ii) The family is provided for and looked after

Seriously, I'm not into someone else telling me or controlling what I can and cannot buy with my money once all my financial responsibilities have been taken care of. There is also the point that things I place value and importance in Ms DDD may not, like a new PC. So I will buy it with my own money.

do you not think the whole 'my money' thing is a bit of a red flashing light for someone thinking about marriage and children. Surely 'my' becomes 'ours'...and vice-versa...hers becomes 'ours'?

Not a dig...honest question.

edit...maybe didn't read until the end of the thread...someone else has said this too.

The money in the joint accout is ours. The money in my current account is mine. "The when she isn't working" is the bit I freely admit I'm struggling with.

I think and I believe Ms DDD, a family/divorce court lawyer, would agree that each party in a relationship should have their own measure of freedom and maintaining a portion of your own finances is key to doing so.

I'm not one of those guys who wants one bank account where both our money is paid into. She doesn't want that either. We do have a joint account where we both make equal deposits to pay for bills etc.

greg66_tri_v2.0

DDD, if you keep thinking like this, there's only one certainty that you'll ever face.

Come the time when you'll called upon to Do The Deed, you'll be so anxious about whether you'll get your way on the budget front, that you'll never even get out of the starting gate, let alone cross the line, arms aloft.

Just get on, sh@g the poor girl, and be done with it.

rjsterry

DDD you can still spend some money on yourself and have a baby, just less than you used to be able to, or could justify. But as someone else pointed out, if you get to the end of the month and there's a hundred quid left over, you genuinely will often think that you'd rather spend it on treating the little one, or taking the family out, rather than buying that nice new saddle or whatever It's not a planned thing, it just happens.

bigmat

DonDaddyD wrote:

cee wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Why would I need to hide my spendings from my girlfriend/wife if:

i) All the bills are paid
ii) The family is provided for and looked after

Seriously, I'm not into someone else telling me or controlling what I can and cannot buy with my money once all my financial responsibilities have been taken care of. There is also the point that things I place value and importance in Ms DDD may not, like a new PC. So I will buy it with my own money.

do you not think the whole 'my money' thing is a bit of a red flashing light for someone thinking about marriage and children. Surely 'my' becomes 'ours'...and vice-versa...hers becomes 'ours'?

Not a dig...honest question.

edit...maybe didn't read until the end of the thread...someone else has said this too.

The money in the joint accout is ours. The money in my current account is mine. "The when she isn't working" is the bit I freely admit I'm struggling with.

I think and I believe Ms DDD, a family/divorce court lawyer, would agree that each party in a relationship should have their own measure of freedom and maintaining a portion of your own finances is key to doing so.

I'm not one of those guys who wants one bank account where both our money is paid into. She doesn't want that either. We do have a joint account where we both make equal deposits to pay for bills etc.

I have that set up. The money in the joint account is for the family. The money in my account is for the family. My money in my wife's account is for the family. I'm part of the family so I will happily spend money on myself, but I would never consider it "my money" to the detriment of my wife and kid.

I agree some poeple on here are a bit extreme saying you can never spend money on non-essentials again, but I think your focus should (and will) shift regarding what you actually want to spend money on and what is important to you.

DonDaddyD

TailWindHome wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

However that assumes a 'take home' pay of £3k a month so you need a salary of £48k by the time HMRC get their chunk

It's more than 50k...

True

£48k was only a very rough estimate to illustrate the salary required

Including student loan repayments to earn £3000 a month you would need to take home a salary of around £56,680.


For reference:
http://listentotaxman.com/index.php

jedster

Two kids, 7 and 5.

My wife went back to work part time when our first child was about 1. She worked three days, grandparents took our boy for one, a nursery the other two.
She stopped work when she was 8 months pregnant with our second and has not gone back to work yet. Her plan was to start working when both children were in full-time school. That has just happened and she's hatching business ideas. She'll will probably start up some kind of "lifestyle" business that allows her to work flexibly and makes some contribution to the household finances but is as much for her satisfaction as for the money.

Two years before we had our first child, my wife and I were earning about the same and had plenty of disposable cash. Fortunately for us, my career and pay carried on growing quite strongly so it was not too tough financially when my wife went part-time/stopped working. It did mean that we stopped being able to save money for a couple of years.

Given that we're fortunate that I'm on pretty good money, the big impact from children has been time rather than living standards. Weekends are (nearly) all about the kids until they are in bed. Grandparents are invaluable in freeing up a bit of time for my wife and I to get things done.

DDD, although I'm a bit surprised that you've been surprised by the revelation that children require lots of time and money, I think it is great that you are thinkinig through all the implications now.

As your better half is 29 and thinking about babies, you probably have 2-3 years to prepare. I'd suggest that before you start a family the two of you focus on
a) you getting the qualificiations that will put you in position to earn more money (it will be really hard trying to combine study, work AND a new baby)
b) putting some money aside and
c) spending some special time together (particularly the kind of holiday that is difficult with young kids - these don't need to cost a fortune, you ).
Personally I'd deprioritise spending on stuff that depreciates fast (cars, techie toys, etc.). If money is tight after you have kids, you'll look at that stuff and feel like an idiot.

Please consider how tough this situation could be for Mrs DDD. My wife still feels guilt for the 2 days a week that our son spend in nursery when he was 1-2 (I don't think she should but it IS how she feels). At the same time she feels that she has lost some of her identity by not working. She feels a bit conned as she feels that society led her to believe that she "could have it all" but now believes that to some extent women have to choose between compromising their career or compromising the quality of their children's upbringing. I think she would feel even more torn if she had been earning more than me.

And this is why other posters are right when they say this is the ultimate MTFU moment. You MTFU by providing for your family as well as you can. THis could mean by staying at home and looking after the kids if that is what will make you and the missus most happy (not normally the case) but most likely it is about maximising what you can earn* and avoiding p1ssing money away on stuff that doesn't matter.

*there is some research that shows that men's careers tend to kick on when they have kids - it gives them a bit more focus and purpose now they have more responsibilities to meet.

Good luck,
J

sarajoy

DonDaddyD wrote:

Why can't you do both.
Buy something the whole family could enjoy and save for your fixie?

I think the problem there is that 'the family' gets something to share and then you get a shiny treat. Why are they not allowed shiny treats?

DonDaddyD

rhext wrote:

That's not what I'm saying. You have to manage your personal finances effectively when you have a child. What I'm saying is that there tends to be precious little left over, and always something 'family-related' to spend it on.

You're right.

rjsterry wrote:

DDD you can still spend some money on yourself and have a baby, just less than you used to be able to, or could justify.

You're right

Greg66 wrote:

Just get on, sh@g the poor girl, and be done with it.

Not yet.

tailwindhome

sarajoy wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Why can't you do both.
Buy something the whole family could enjoy and save for your fixie?

I think the problem there is that 'the family' gets something to share and then you get a shiny treat. Why are they not allowed shiny treats?

To come back on topic

When you have kids you will spend your money on bike stuff for them than you will on bike stuff for yourself.

You'll know you're a dad when you realise that way round makes you happier.

DonDaddyD

TailWindHome wrote:

sarajoy wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Why can't you do both.
Buy something the whole family could enjoy and save for your fixie?

I think the problem there is that 'the family' gets something to share and then you get a shiny treat. Why are they not allowed shiny treats?

To come back on topic

When you have kids you will spend your money on bike stuff for them than you will on bike stuff for yourself.

You'll know you're a dad when you realise that way round makes you happier.

I do that for my brother already. He is 12 years younger than me. I'm not saying that I won't spend money on my family.

What I'm struggling with are those who claim that you will never spend money on a non-essential item again, ever.

It's like the person who queried my want of a car when I have kids. It came across like no one could possibly buy a car when they have children. Obviously some people do and in most cases the family benefits from it.

Cafewanda

9 pages and you still not sorted this out in your head DDD?

Tell you what, book the upstairs room at the 'peth one Friday evening and get the guys to meet you there (those who can). Get your dad and grandad(s) to come along. 2 hours and it's sorted and you have a definite plan of action.

Jeeze I thought men were more decisive than wimmin :roll:

DonDaddyD

jedster wrote:

Two kids, 7 and 5.

My wife went back to work part time when our first child was about 1. She worked three days, grandparents took our boy for one, a nursery the other two.
She stopped work when she was 8 months pregnant with our second and has not gone back to work yet. Her plan was to start working when both children were in full-time school. That has just happened and she's hatching business ideas. She'll will probably start up some kind of "lifestyle" business that allows her to work flexibly and makes some contribution to the household finances but is as much for her satisfaction as for the money.

Two years before we had our first child, my wife and I were earning about the same and had plenty of disposable cash. Fortunately for us, my career and pay carried on growing quite strongly so it was not too tough financially when my wife went part-time/stopped working. It did mean that we stopped being able to save money for a couple of years.

Given that we're fortunate that I'm on pretty good money, the big impact from children has been time rather than living standards. Weekends are (nearly) all about the kids until they are in bed. Grandparents are invaluable in freeing up a bit of time for my wife and I to get things done.

DDD, although I'm a bit surprised that you've been surprised by the revelation that children require lots of time and money, I think it is great that you are thinkinig through all the implications now.

As your better half is 29 and thinking about babies, you probably have 2-3 years to prepare. I'd suggest that before you start a family the two of you focus on
a) you getting the qualificiations that will put you in position to earn more money (it will be really hard trying to combine study, work AND a new baby)
b) putting some money aside and
c) spending some special time together (particularly the kind of holiday that is difficult with young kids - these don't need to cost a fortune, you ).
Personally I'd deprioritise spending on stuff that depreciates fast (cars, techie toys, etc.). If money is tight after you have kids, you'll look at that stuff and feel like an idiot.

Please consider how tough this situation could be for Mrs DDD. My wife still feels guilt for the 2 days a week that our son spend in nursery when he was 1-2 (I don't think she should but it IS how she feels). At the same time she feels that she has lost some of her identity by not working. She feels a bit conned as she feels that society led her to believe that she "could have it all" but now believes that to some extent women have to choose between compromising their career or compromising the quality of their children's upbringing. I think she would feel even more torn if she had been earning more than me.

And this is why other posters are right when they say this is the ultimate MTFU moment. You MTFU by providing for your family as well as you can. THis could mean by staying at home and looking after the kids if that is what will make you and the missus most happy (not normally the case) but most likely it is about maximising what you can earn* and avoiding p1ssing money away on stuff that doesn't matter.

*there is some research that shows that men's careers tend to kick on when they have kids - it gives them a bit more focus and purpose now they have more responsibilities to meet.

Good luck,
J

Thank you for the post. It echoes most of my thoughts and aspirations.

Ms DDD and I do want at least one more holiday.

It is the ultiamte MTFU, I don't want to be found wanting. But to some degree the only way to find out is as Greg66 was saying having the sprog...

I can see your point that men's salaries tend to go up when they have kids. I think age and experience also plays a part.

jedster

By the way on the whole joint account / your money thing, we put all our money into a joint account from the day we were married. It was all OUR money. It works for us.

This actually became more important when my wife stopped earning her own money. Like I said, she felt a bit diminished by giving up her career. She would have felt it all the more painfully if she had been effectively asking me for house-keeping money. Just because I earn the money doesn't make it mine. I get to earn it in part because my wife frees me to do so by organising the rest of our lives. We are a team. The money is ours.

So what about buying things for myself? Well, I think I do spend on myself a little more easily than my wife spends on herself. She is still a bit conscious that I earned the cash and feels a little gulity when she splashes out. I try to tell her not to be so silly. I could be a lot more free with spending on myself - I could buy myself a Sunday best road bike or a bespoke suit or something without upsetting my wife. What stops me is the sense that what I already have will do me just as well in the real world and the money would be better put aside for holidays/retirement savings/university fees/ etc. I think my point is that when you have kids, you can always think of a better use for spare cash than buying stuff for yourself. Doesn't mean that you never to spend on yourself, it just tends to happen less freely and in more moderation.

J

rjsterry

Very well put jedster. Your post also prompted one other thought. Ms DDD might change her mind if and when DDD Jr arrives. Just ask any HR department how many mums don't return after their maternity leave. There are countless other things that might not turn out the way you planned. That's not to say that any planning is wasted, just that you might need to adjust those plans as you go along.

tailwindhome

rjsterry wrote:

There are countless other things that might not turn out the way you planned. That's not to say that any planning is wasted, just that you might need to adjust those plans as you go along.

Yeah

You might have twins.........

jedster

Ms DDD might change her mind if and when DDD Jr arrives. Just ask any HR department how many mums don't return after their maternity leave.

Very true that. IME it is very difficult to predict how women will feel when they have children - some of the most ambitious female colleagues have got a totally different set of priorities after becoming mums.