O, Danny Boy

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  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    Once you decide to start doping , you have decided to cross a line.

    You cannot look for excuses and say Armstrong forced me.

    More so if you are forced to talk or see your racing life go down the sink.

    It's all a bit late.
  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Crankbrother wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:

    The argument I'm making is if you've made that choice, you've probably made it on the basis that everybody is doing it and you've grown up with that through your pro career. DZ's testimony tells us that USPS was the first time he'd been based in Europe, it was certainly his first pro contract. Suddenly a Tour Winner and your DS are telling you it's EPO and bloodbags or back to Utah and making $15,000 on the domestic circuit.

    So the choice is ... Take the DZ shortcut ... or be Chris Horner?

    You'll notice in that example how the rider who made the wrong decision's actions have gone on to have a negative impact on the other ...


    Exactly, there's no winners!

    I'd class DZ as a winner in this ... He collected Pro/WT salary from 3 top teams and put together a decent string of results ... He retired on his terms ... Some of you even have him down as a 'victim' thanks to the Vaughters magic PR machine ...
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    rayjay wrote:
    Once you decide to start doping , you have decided to cross a line.

    You cannot look for excuses and say Armstrong forced me.

    More so if you are forced to talk or see your racing life go down the sink.

    It's all a bit late.

    good-and-bad-mold.jpg
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    Crankbrother wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Crankbrother wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:

    The argument I'm making is if you've made that choice, you've probably made it on the basis that everybody is doing it and you've grown up with that through your pro career. DZ's testimony tells us that USPS was the first time he'd been based in Europe, it was certainly his first pro contract. Suddenly a Tour Winner and your DS are telling you it's EPO and bloodbags or back to Utah and making $15,000 on the domestic circuit.

    So the choice is ... Take the DZ shortcut ... or be Chris Horner?

    You'll notice in that example how the rider who made the wrong decision's actions have gone on to have a negative impact on the other ...


    Exactly, there's no winners!

    I'd class DZ as a winner in this ... He collected Pro/WT salary from 3 top teams and put together a decent string of results ... He retired on his terms ... Some of you even have him down as a 'victim' thanks to the Vaughters magic PR machine ...

    I have said that before , Garmins PR machine is first class. The UCI could have used their help.
    A team run by an ex doper, many of their riders are ex dopers and everyone loves them, Brilliant.

    If DI Luca was at Garmin most of the posters giving him stick would now be saying how tough he had it and how happy they are to see him back in the peloton.

    Vaughter's is a clever man and very media savvy.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    rayjay wrote:
    Crankbrother wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Crankbrother wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:

    The argument I'm making is if you've made that choice, you've probably made it on the basis that everybody is doing it and you've grown up with that through your pro career. DZ's testimony tells us that USPS was the first time he'd been based in Europe, it was certainly his first pro contract. Suddenly a Tour Winner and your DS are telling you it's EPO and bloodbags or back to Utah and making $15,000 on the domestic circuit.

    So the choice is ... Take the DZ shortcut ... or be Chris Horner?

    You'll notice in that example how the rider who made the wrong decision's actions have gone on to have a negative impact on the other ...


    Exactly, there's no winners!

    I'd class DZ as a winner in this ... He collected Pro/WT salary from 3 top teams and put together a decent string of results ... He retired on his terms ... Some of you even have him down as a 'victim' thanks to the Vaughters magic PR machine ...

    I have said that before , Garmins PR machine is first class. The UCI could have used their help.
    A team run by an ex doper, many of their riders are ex dopers and everyone loves them, Brilliant.

    If DI Luca was at Garmin most of the posters giving him stick would now be saying how tough he had it and how happy they are to see him back in the peloton.

    Vaughter's is a clever man and very media savvy.


    Clearly not everyone loves them.

    Some thing there approach is the only realistic way to accept cycling's past and move on.

    If Di Luca had been given a chance at Garmin and doped a 3rd time he'd be torn apart on here.

    Suggesting otherwise is drivel.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Why do you suppose he was never afforded a chance at a team like Garmin? or even Amore e Vita who were the mainstay for second chances in Italy for about 15 years, thanks to their boss's admirable, if naive sense of forgivness?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    I doubt he would have ever got a Garmin ride it was just a play act.

    Vaughter's is a smart cookie and if by some chance Luca did get a ride at Garmin I doubt he would be banned and most likely would be seen as a reformed rider.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    rayjay wrote:
    Vaughter's is a smart cookie and if by some chance Luca did get a ride at Garmin I doubt he would be banned and most likely would be seen as a reformed rider.
    The reason that Di Luca isn't seen as a reformed rider isn't because of the teams he rode for, but because he proved he wasn't reformed by getting caught again. Twice.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • nic_77
    nic_77 Posts: 929
    rayjay wrote:
    I doubt he would have ever got a Garmin ride it was just a play act.

    Vaughter's is a smart cookie and if by some chance Luca did get a ride at Garmin I doubt he would be banned and most likely would be seen as a reformed rider.

    Or maybe if he'd been given a ride at Garmin he would actually have become a reformed rider - i.e. he would have been on a team where the need/inclination to dope was removed. Perhaps that is why the Garmin dopers are treated differently... because they took the second chances they were given and changed their behaviour! DDL didn't.
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  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    nic_77 wrote:
    rayjay wrote:
    I doubt he would have ever got a Garmin ride it was just a play act.

    Vaughter's is a smart cookie and if by some chance Luca did get a ride at Garmin I doubt he would be banned and most likely would be seen as a reformed rider.

    Or maybe if he'd been given a ride at Garmin he would actually have become a reformed rider - i.e. he would have been on a team where the need/inclination to dope was removed. Perhaps that is why the Garmin dopers are treated differently... because they took the second chances they were given and changed their behaviour! DDL didn't.

    That's one way of looking at it and it makes for a solid point.

    IMO there is something of a dodgy car salesman vibe about Garmin and Vaughter's. No matter what happens like with Ryder for instance he always comes out shiny.

    The statute of limitations meant that Ryder could have talked before he knew chickens books was on the way but he did not.
    He doped in 2004 so he could have talked a year earlier, funny how he never said anything.

    Vaughters got ahead of the game, they knew what was coming and got in first. Like I said very clever.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    rayjay wrote:
    The statute of limitations meant that Ryder could have talked before he knew chickens books was on the way but he did not.
    He doped in 2004 so he could have talked a year earlier, funny how he never said anything.
    He did. He talked to USADA and CCES (Canadian Anti-Doping) in early 2013
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • nic_77
    nic_77 Posts: 929
    Yep, I don't buy the Garmin approach. It's spin, but it is possibly the only way to get through the dark until clean cycling can actually exist (without destroying the sport in the meantime).
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  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    rayjay wrote:
    Once you decide to start doping , you have decided to cross a line.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    RichN95 wrote:
    rayjay wrote:
    The statute of limitations meant that Ryder could have talked before he knew chickens books was on the way but he did not.
    He doped in 2004 so he could have talked a year earlier, funny how he never said anything.
    He did. He talked to USADA and CCES (Canadian Anti-Doping) in early 2013

    I also saw a thing by INRNG I think, questioning if Ryder served a six month ban at the end of 2012 season.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,710
    Come to think of it, didn't di Luca's first ban (drugs for oil)
    conveniently take place during the closed season?
    So, effectively, he got off scott free.
    A bit like getting a life ban, when you've already retired. :P
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Crankbrother wrote:
    DZ is not a 'victim' ... He had options, chose the one that was best for him and set about creating a career based on false performances ...

    Easier said than done though isn't it?

    Somebody offers ou a pill that makes you better at your job at a time when you're making sod all and clinging to your tiny 2 year fixed contract, what would you do?

    You are assuming everyone has no scruples and are prepared to lie and cheat to maintain a job that is not that well paid, for the majority of riders.

    Me? Even though I love cycling, and worked very hard at it, I realised I was not good enough, and no I did not believe all the guys that were better than me were doping. Also I think that, like me, most of the even semi intelligent hopefuls realise that a cycling career is short, and its not worth damaging your future health and reputation for a few years as an average domestique, and that, even with doping, would have been the best I and most like me could achieve.

    Dont simply assume everyone has your relaxed personal view on cheating.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    I think it was JV who said years ago, that if you look at the type of guy who becomes a pro, he's sacrificed a whole lot of his youth, not going out drinking, going to bed early, working hard etc etc. Probably fairly "moral" people but something changes along the way.

    The whole thing can become quite rationalised when you're in the culture. If I was a pro in the 90's or 00's, I don't doubt I would've been on the gear.

    Not related to cycling and an altogether different thing but there are some lessons to be taken from The Act of Killing.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    iainf72 wrote:
    The whole thing can become quite rationalised when you're in the culture. If I was a pro in the 90's or 00's, I don't doubt I would've been on the gear.

    That kinda sums it up, didn't Hamilton say he could beat a lie detector test because he didn't believe he was cheating. Everyone was going it so he had to to keep up.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    iainf72 wrote:
    Not related to cycling and an altogether different thing but there are some lessons to be taken from The Act of Killing.

    Sounds like you really liked that film! (if like is the right word for it)
    _
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,538
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    Not related to cycling and an altogether different thing but there are some lessons to be taken from The Act of Killing.

    Sounds like you really liked that film! (if like is the right word for it)

    It sounds like a good film, but one I couldn't watch.

    Can we substitute Hannah Arendt's "Banality of evil" for it in future references though? Does the same work as a reference phrase.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    CONI summoned Di Luca to meet with them today re his allegations that everyone's on it and the rest of his tv interview guff

    In a move that surprised precisely no one, Di Luca declined the opportunity to back up his claims, and refused to meet with CONI

    http://www.spaziociclismo.it/altro-ital ... enza-34868
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    I reiterate - d1ck!
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver

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