Kids - convince me they're worth it

Roastie

woodford2barbican wrote:

Entirely personal decision so my advice actually means nothing. ...

(I may perhaps have missed a similar sentiment in the thread, but) so nice to hear someone with children not making someone who isn't particularly interested or keen on having kids implying that they are either somehow selfish, weird or missing out on some wonderful rite of passage.

linsen

Roastie wrote:

woodford2barbican wrote:

Entirely personal decision so my advice actually means nothing. ...

(I may perhaps have missed a similar sentiment in the thread, but) so nice to hear someone with children not making someone who isn't particularly interested or keen on having kids implying that they are either somehow selfish, weird or missing out on some wonderful rite of passage.

I hope I didn't come across that way. I think it is an entirely personal opinion, but IP was asking for the other view to be put (having managed to convince me that having children is a terrible idea, and I have two of them :shock: )

Roastie

linsen wrote:

Roastie wrote:

woodford2barbican wrote:

Entirely personal decision so my advice actually means nothing. ...

(I may perhaps have missed a similar sentiment in the thread, but) so nice to hear someone with children not making someone who isn't particularly interested or keen on having kids implying that they are either somehow selfish, weird or missing out on some wonderful rite of passage.

I hope I didn't come across that way. I think it is an entirely personal opinion, but IP was asking for the other view to be put (having managed to convince me that having children is a terrible idea, and I have two of them :shock: )

No, not your comments specifically at all. In fact, I do agree that it isn't something that you can justify (either way) rationally.

Perhaps I'm a little sensitive from having so many friends and acquaintances "with spawn" who seem to think anyone who doesn't follow the same well trodden route is somehow damaged or lacking. I think W2B pit it very succinctly - it is a very personal decision.

This is something I have thought about a lot recently - mostly because a very close friend apparently can't have kids but would make a great mother. Besides her own dissapointment, the social and family pressure on her is immense and frankly unfair. It makes me angry. It is such a shame that some people that shouldn't be parents are (be it through accident, or just going through the motions), and those that really should aren't.

And so if one doesn't think one is up for being a parent, perhaps it is better that one doesn't. The species will probably be just fine regardless...

jedster

Male friends who have kids and are happy about it have all said they realised they were envisaging them and their partners with children, or that the idea of it didn't scare them, rather excited them, or made them happy.

Probably not an epiphany, more a slow realisation.

spot on in my case, LiT. And when the first one arrived I realised that I had actually been ready a couple of years earlier.

I wouldn't actually say it was ideal to rush into having children too early in a marriage particularly if you haven't been cohabiting but 5 years was longer than we needed.

jedster

so nice to hear someone with children not making someone who isn't particularly interested or keen on having kids implying that they are either somehow selfish, weird or missing out on some wonderful rite of passage.

Roastie,

I think it is perfectly understandable why people would not want children. I'm not for a moment suggesting that it is "wrong" to choose not to have children. But if you choose not to then you obviously ARE "missing out on some wonderful rite of passage". You are also missing out on lots of unattractive things, as IP points out, so sacrificing the rite of passage may be exactly the right decision.

Cheers,

J

Clever Pun

I must admit to getting a random kid in trouble in toy shops a few years ago, a kid comes up and asks me about something I suggest it's the best toy in the world and if your mummy says no shout and scream and they'll say yes to keep you quiet

I wondered off forgetting about it and had a look at some puzzles (I'm shopping for someones kid before you ask) and all of a sudden I see the little fella screaming his heart out and the poor mother not having a clue where this ball of evil has emerged from... I made my escape swiftly

linsen

Clever Pun wrote:

I must admit to getting a random kid in trouble in toy shops a few years ago, a kid comes up and asks me about something I suggest it's the best toy in the world and if your mummy says no shout and scream and they'll say yes to keep you quiet

I wondered off forgetting about it and had a look at some puzzles (I'm shopping for someones kid before you ask) and all of a sudden I see the little fella screaming his heart out and the poor mother not having a clue where this ball of evil has emerged from... I made my escape swiftly

Remind me never to introduce you to my children
Having said that, I have raised a proper pair of rule-abiders. Most likely one of the three of us to raise hell in a shop is me

lost_in_thought

Clever Pun wrote:

I must admit to getting a random kid in trouble in toy shops a few years ago, a kid comes up and asks me about something I suggest it's the best toy in the world and if your mummy says no shout and scream and they'll say yes to keep you quiet

I wondered off forgetting about it and had a look at some puzzles (I'm shopping for someones kid before you ask) and all of a sudden I see the little fella screaming his heart out and the poor mother not having a clue where this ball of evil has emerged from... I made my escape swiftly

'But mummy the giant told me to do it!'

sarajoy

Quoted you a couple of times LiT only because your posts twanged a heart string.

lost_in_thought wrote:

My mum heartily believes (and has drummed it into me and my brother from a young age) that once you have kids you no longer come first, they do. Until when? Until they're in their 30s, or moved out and with someone, apparently. Whichever comes sooner.

I'm now 26 - Mum was talking to me about her and my stepfather's will the other day.

Because I am as yet unmarried/unsettled - if she alone or both of them should die any time soon, I'd get a whopping payout. It'd be over and above that of my stepfather's children because as she put it "You don't have anyone else here who has truly got you in their heart." - and she didn't want to leave me both fairly poor /and/ stuck without the one person who truly has me as a priority.

I'm sure my stepfather would be gracious but it's probably true that it'd be a bit different asking him for lots of support if everything went wrong, as opposed to mum. Just typing out the above has given me a lump in my throat and got my eyes watering.

lost_in_thought wrote:

I agree, you can do most things with kids and a bit of work, it certainly didn't stop my parents. It's more a change of mentality - for me, I've been my main priority for the past 27 years, and I'm not prepared to change that just yet.

My sister, as an example, sees her kids as a burden, resents them and says as much. My mum doesn't think she ever stopped putting herself first, and I'm inclined to agree.

Funny, I have another friend who says that of her older sister. The family is very critical of how she's bringing up her daughter - who at 10 years old seems to be unaware of politeness or unselfishness.

As for personal priorities I think it goes from yourself > your partner > your kids.

I can see that having kids with my boyfriend would be wonderful - he'd be a jovial, silly-yet-sensible, planning-for-their-future dad who'll jump at the chance to tell the kids a completely untrue pseudo-scientific story for his own amusement or completely embarrass them as teenagers.

Not yet, for sure. But I think we both would agree that assuming we're a couple for good, we will have kids, and they will become No 1.

Jay dubbleU

Get a dog

Bassjunkieuk

Jay dubbleU wrote:

Get a dog

But even with one of them you still have them pi$$ing and $hitting all over the place until they are housetrained and a baby won't make such a mess if they try and eat your sofa or shoes :-D

roger_merriman

For us (my self and the wife) neither was very keen on having children so we haven't, we wouldn't of been against the idea if the other simply had to have children.

We love being uncle/auntie but also like handing them back as well ;-)

in short there is no point doing it if your not keen.

ride_whenever

borrowing kids is much better than having your own...

you can get them all wound up on sugar and then give them back when you're bored.

gabriel959

jedster wrote:

To be fair, nearly all of your downside points are completely accurate. The "lack of nookie" one may be an exception but only because that's going to happen in time with or without kids

That said, I have no regrets about having kids. In fact, I might have got on with it a little sooner if I had my time again (we married at 27 but didnt start a familly until we were both 32 - thought we weren't ready any earlier but I think we were).

The thing is, while being expensive and time consuming, they are a lot of fun and very rewarding. I don't see much of my kids in the week - half an hour in the morning and a peek at them when they are asleep when I get home - but they are very special moments. When I look at them sleeping, I have a very physical reaction - any stress seems to drain away and a grin spreads on my face. Normally on a Friday morning, they'll ask me "Daddy, is it the weekend tomorrow" and when I say yes, their faces just light up. They like school but the weekend means I'll be there. Their reaction just feels very good.

Little things like teaching them to ride a bike - charging round the park, steadying them and then finally seeing them wobble off... Their first words, the first words they read, the first story they read you... it's all just very satisfying.

And for most of us, what else do we do of any real significance over a lifetime? Hedonism is fine as far as it goes (and I don't mean debauchery, just doing what you enjoy) but I think at some point most of us would suffer existential angst ("what's it all for?"). Children provide one convincing answer.

The last night that my Dad was alive, my sister and I were sitting with him. He wasn't a very demonstative person (very British) and he said "you are my greatest achievements".

I think your answer is in there somewhere.

Cheers,
J

My daughter is only 13 months but I feel 110% like you do.

She is the best thing ever, even when she has a poo just minutes before you prepare lunch!

One thing though, don't have children just because, its incredibly cruel on them - I have seen small babies or children been left for hours just because their parents were bored and wanted to go to the cinema or theatre. People expect to have children and contine doing what they did before. That is just impossible if you want to have quality time with them.

bikey2009

I think that at times of child induced stress this video can sum up parents thoughts.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaj3jJI6cSk

sampras38

Clever Pun wrote:

verloren wrote:

Comparing it to something you've already had experience of, why did you get married? It's a lot cheaper to get nookie from some slapper down the pub, or from a range of 'retail outlets', and chances are it would be more obliging too. Companionship can be dealt with at the pub/footie/sunday ride. A cleaner doesn't cost much, especially when it's just you to clean up after. And you don't have to justify yourself to anybody.

So, why did you get married? Because you 'love' her? How could love compare to the ideal life I just described? It's only an emotion, after all.

he's not married, they're not even living together yet going to be more whipped than DDD

I've been with my significant other for nearly 10 years now, if we (I mean she) choose(s) to have kids we'd get married as it's just easier that way. but as we're not religious there's no point in marriage imo

Can I ask a question?

If you had kids and one day they found out you really didn't want them and it was only your other half that did, how would that make you feel?

I'll buy the fact that it's very common for one partner to want children either before the other or slightly more, but if you don't want them, please don't do it for your other half.

sampras38

Sewinman wrote:

My mate and I hatched a plan - stay single until forties - party, fish, cycle etc. Then find some vacuous twenty something year old who likes hand-bags and the good life and start a family then.

How to miss the point....

sampras38

ride_whenever wrote:

borrowing kids is much better than having your own...

you can get them all wound up on sugar and then give them back when you're bored.

That's the job of the grandparents. All the fun without the responsibility.

sarajoy

The way I see it, kids aren't something you just factor into your life, like a dog, a fish tank or a book club...

The child is you creation, entirely reliant upon you, and eventually capable of SO much.

If you bring up a puppy without enough love and attention, you may get an animal that's a bit snappish and growly. If it goes really wrong - you can have it put down for the safety of others. Can't really do that with a little person.

Absolutely they should become your priority. If your partner is already your priority above yourself - I don't see that as such a big step... The family unit becomes what is most important - the rest happens around that.

Am I being idealistic?

DonDaddyD

This thread is making me want to try. I'm going ride home doubly quick tonight and put my best efforts in. She's protected from such seedlings but a man can try :P

I'll report it in the SCR thread tomorrow:

Before I set out I checked to see if the pressure in my tube was fine, it wasn't so I had some air blown into to it to get it up to task. I'm ready to go. It was dark, but my front light had lit the road ahead as though it was a runway awaiting for me to land. My prey ahead of me. Bent over, clutching the bars her thighs pulsating. I position myself perfectly behind her, caught in her draft she's going no where. I draw closer and closer.

She performs the lifesaver, checking over her shoulder to see who is there. I smile. The arch of her back displaying the perfect flexibility. She doesn't seem to mind that I'm drafting, I near to an impossible closeness. Locked and engaged.

She accelerates, I accelerate, we accelerate. The world outside, the world around us a blur and our speed becomes fury. I put the hammer down, mashing in my highest gear possible, her spinning those cranks her hips moving perfectly in time with her legs. I overpower and overtake. I lay down a thick layer of armageddon everywhere.

I scalp, I win.

8)

mudcovered

sarajoy wrote:

Absolutely they should become your priority. If your partner is already your priority above yourself - I don't see that as such a big step... The family unit becomes what is most important - the rest happens around that.

No. If you aren't willing to make bringing up a child top priority then you shouldn't have one. From what I have seen parents that don't care about their children tend to raise children that don't care about anything.

Priority doesn't mean completely giving up on your personal life but I cannot see any sane way to raise a child properly without one (preferably both) of the parents making some sacrifices.

Thinking like this is probably one of the reasons I'm still single although much more likely that I'm just not a very social person.

Mike

gabriel959

sarajoy wrote:

The way I see it, kids aren't something you just factor into your life, like a dog, a fish tank or a book club...

The child is you creation, entirely reliant upon you, and eventually capable of SO much.

If you bring up a puppy without enough love and attention, you may get an animal that's a bit snappish and growly. If it goes really wrong - you can have it put down for the safety of others. Can't really do that with a little person.

Absolutely they should become your priority. If your partner is already your priority above yourself - I don't see that as such a big step... The family unit becomes what is most important - the rest happens around that.

Am I being idealistic?

Sara, you are spot on IMO!

MrChuck

Wasn't there something on R4 a while back about a sizeable percentage of parents wishing they hadn't had kids?

Not sure how much weight you can put in that though, since they're coming from a position where they do have kids. It's easy to say you could do without something when you've still got it.

the_hundredth_idiot

jedster wrote:

To be fair, nearly all of your downside points are completely accurate. The "lack of nookie" one may be an exception but only because that's going to happen in time with or without kids

+1 OP summed up the downsides pretty well given he doesn't have kids (yet).

jedster wrote:

The thing is, while being expensive and time consuming, they are a lot of fun and very rewarding. I don't see much of my kids in the week - half an hour in the morning and a peek at them when they are asleep when I get home - but they are very special moments. When I look at them sleeping, I have a very physical reaction - any stress seems to drain away and a grin spreads on my face. Normally on a Friday morning, they'll ask me "Daddy, is it the weekend tomorrow" and when I say yes, their faces just light up. They like school but the weekend means I'll be there. Their reaction just feels very good.

Little things like teaching them to ride a bike - charging round the park, steadying them and then finally seeing them wobble off... Their first words, the first words they read, the first story they read you... it's all just very satisfying.

+1 again. When the little chaps (two boys) achieve something new (speaking, walking, feeding themselves!) it makes my heart sing. I love it when I can get home before the toddler is asleep and he comes running to his bedroom door for a hug with his daddy.

jimmypippa

I have three: girl boy, girl, 2-years apart, the eldest is just turning eleven.

I have often complained about the lack of sleep when they were young (a word of advice, chose a partner who is a lighter sleeper than you).

I am now feeling the advantage of starting fairly young (26), as there are now three additional people who can share love with. I still get a lift coming through the door and saying hello to them. I think about them constantly at work.

In my case the disadvantages were far outweighed by the benefits.

tailwindhome

Perhaps a better poll would have been "Who regrets having kids?". I'd wager not many people lie on their death bed wishing they'd had fewer children.

PP

Jose and Kitty Menendez?

tailwindhome

Greg66 wrote:

PedalPedant wrote:

Perhaps a better poll would have been "Who regrets having kids?". I'd wager not many people lie on their death bed wishing they'd had fewer children.

PP

[bad taste]

Women who die in childbirth?

[/bad taste]

Disappointed in you

I'd have thought you'd go down the classical route and mention Oedipus' Mom and Pop

Instead you went the low road

Shame

carbonfiend

I have 3 boys 2/4/7, they mean so much to me you can could take everything away from me including my last breath and it wont come close to how I would feel if something happend to one. Yeah there are hard and very frustrating times but the moments of joy no matter how small are so much bigger that the hardest strain they bring. I might add all this could have changed in about 10yrs as I know people with teenagers who say that you wake up one day and somebody has kidnapped your lovely chlld and replaced it with a some sort of evil monster :shock:

il_principe

I've spawned a monster...


... er no hang on, that's what we're debating.

A little IP - clearly he/she/it would have to be colour coordinated.

Ooooh Pinarello do a kids roadie:



I'm sold.

rjsterry

carbonfiend wrote:

I have 3 boys 2/4/7, they mean so much to me you can could take everything away from me including my last breath and it wont come close to how I would feel if something happend to one. Yeah there are hard and very frustrating times but the moments of joy no matter how small are so much bigger that the hardest strain they bring. I might add all this could have changed in about 10yrs as I know people with teenagers who say that you wake up one day and somebody has kidnapped your lovely chlld and replaced it with a some sort of evil monster :shock:

+1. I used to be a very easy going person, who would turn the other cheek to just about anything, but since Little M was born (actually since M was pregnant with Little M), I have developed a rather scary "If you so much as look at my daughter the wrong way I'll..." tendency. I think I'm going to be very embarrassing when she gets interested in boys :twisted: