Kids - convince me they're worth it

il_principe

OT I know, but come on.

Now that I'm approaching old age - having recently turned 30, it's occurred to me that having children will probably be looming large on my radar over the next few years and frankly I'm not convinced. Of course most people I know that have kids tell me that the pros far outweigh the cons, but honestly (as a typically selfish youngish man) I find the benefits hard to see. Thing is I know the missus is going to want children, she's already taken to staring at babies for what can seem like hours - whereas I don't even like them. So people, are they worth the hassle of:

Vomiting on you and your belongings, at home, in the shops, in the car, the cinema etc.
Pissing/crapping the bed/floor/car etc
Destroying your home, sticking toast in the Bluray player, putting their hands through framed photos, traipsing dirt everywhere
The massive lack of sleep
The spending entire weekends ferrying them about
The constant worry
The enormous expense
The ingratitude
The arguments
The inability to just 'pop out' without taking a buggy and enough wipes/nappies/clothes/food to survive a nuclear holocaust
The lost cycling time
The lack of nookie :shock:
The nightmare of finding/applying for/getting into decent schools
The inevitable experiments with drugs & alcohol
The fear that they will go completely off the rails/need to be supported until you die
No more sunday's spent watching footie and drinking wine
No more 'me' time basically until they've left home.

The list is endless, and I struggle to see the pros - 'unconditional love?', I'm not convinced; you'll always love your kids more than they love you, and frankly a dog would be far less hassle!

Ok I'm probably being overly negative (and selfish), but is it really all it's cracked up to be - or are many of us just driven by biological imperative/expectations of loved ones/societal 'norm'

@BassJunkie - I'm looking at you fella - you've got enough of 'em.

linsen

So people, are they worth the hassle of:

Vomiting on you and your belongings, at home, in the shops, in the car, the cinema etc.
Pissing/crapping the bed/floor/car etc
Destroying your home, sticking toast in the Bluray player, putting their hands through framed photos, traipsing dirt everywhere
The massive lack of sleep
The spending entire weekends ferrying them about
The constant worry
The enormous expense
The ingratitude
The arguments
The inability to just 'pop out' without taking a buggy and enough wipes/nappies/clothes/food to survive a nuclear holocaust
The lost cycling time
The lack of nookie
The nightmare of finding/applying for/getting into decent schools
The inevitable experiments with drugs & alcohol
The fear that they will go completely off the rails/need to be supported until you die
No more sunday's spent watching footie and drinking wine
No more 'me' time basically until they've left home.

You can't do the maths.

Were YOU worth these things?

UndercoverElephant

It does rather change your viewpoint on who you are, and what's important to you. It takes more out of you than you think it will, but you get back more than you think is possible.

That said, I'm glad I went down the vet's after the third.

verloren

Comparing it to something you've already had experience of, why did you get married? It's a lot cheaper to get nookie from some slapper down the pub, or from a range of 'retail outlets', and chances are it would be more obliging too. Companionship can be dealt with at the pub/footie/sunday ride. A cleaner doesn't cost much, especially when it's just you to clean up after. And you don't have to justify yourself to anybody.

So, why did you get married? Because you 'love' her? How could love compare to the ideal life I just described? It's only an emotion, after all.

Clever Pun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q72gvldxoA

nookie hur hur

DonDaddyD

I'm 27, younger than you. I would 'seed' my girlfriend in an instant, if we had a big enough place.

Having kids, I think, isn't something that should require convincing.

You either want them or you don't.

What you see in your own kids, what makes them special to you, is something that no one else can describe to you or tell you about. You love them becuase they came from and are a part of you. It's like magic.*

*Or so I'm told...

King Donut

@ IP I love the way you think you have a choice

Sewinman

Some of my mates are kidded up and bang on about them constantly....one of my other mates who is a keen fisherman (i.e. had hobbies) is like a brocken man now he has kids. It depends on your mentality.

Have some and see them every other weekend, that is what my Dad did.

Clever Pun

verloren wrote:

Comparing it to something you've already had experience of, why did you get married? It's a lot cheaper to get nookie from some slapper down the pub, or from a range of 'retail outlets', and chances are it would be more obliging too. Companionship can be dealt with at the pub/footie/sunday ride. A cleaner doesn't cost much, especially when it's just you to clean up after. And you don't have to justify yourself to anybody.

So, why did you get married? Because you 'love' her? How could love compare to the ideal life I just described? It's only an emotion, after all.

he's not married, they're not even living together yet going to be more whipped than DDD

I've been with my significant other for nearly 10 years now, if we (I mean she) choose(s) to have kids we'd get married as it's just easier that way. but as we're not religious there's no point in marriage imo

il_principe

verloren wrote:

Comparing it to something you've already had experience of, why did you get married? It's a lot cheaper to get nookie from some slapper down the pub, or from a range of 'retail outlets', and chances are it would be more obliging too. Companionship can be dealt with at the pub/footie/sunday ride. A cleaner doesn't cost much, especially when it's just you to clean up after. And you don't have to justify yourself to anybody.

So, why did you get married? Because you 'love' her? How could love compare to the ideal life I just described? It's only an emotion, after all.

I'm not married... in fact not convinced by marriage either.

shoulder_of_orion

after a while you just get bored of not having kids and then you're not bored anymore.

Roastie

If you feel the need to procreate, you should. If you don't, you shouldn't.

Personally I like the idea of having kids at some point, but not sure if we will. Perhaps it is selfishness, maybe that I don't see the point. Or maybe that I'm just not wired that way. Sure, the instinct is there to want to sow the seed, but in my heart I don't think it is for me.

jedster

To be fair, nearly all of your downside points are completely accurate. The "lack of nookie" one may be an exception but only because that's going to happen in time with or without kids

That said, I have no regrets about having kids. In fact, I might have got on with it a little sooner if I had my time again (we married at 27 but didnt start a familly until we were both 32 - thought we weren't ready any earlier but I think we were).

The thing is, while being expensive and time consuming, they are a lot of fun and very rewarding. I don't see much of my kids in the week - half an hour in the morning and a peek at them when they are asleep when I get home - but they are very special moments. When I look at them sleeping, I have a very physical reaction - any stress seems to drain away and a grin spreads on my face. Normally on a Friday morning, they'll ask me "Daddy, is it the weekend tomorrow" and when I say yes, their faces just light up. They like school but the weekend means I'll be there. Their reaction just feels very good.

Little things like teaching them to ride a bike - charging round the park, steadying them and then finally seeing them wobble off... Their first words, the first words they read, the first story they read you... it's all just very satisfying.

And for most of us, what else do we do of any real significance over a lifetime? Hedonism is fine as far as it goes (and I don't mean debauchery, just doing what you enjoy) but I think at some point most of us would suffer existential angst ("what's it all for?"). Children provide one convincing answer.

The last night that my Dad was alive, my sister and I were sitting with him. He wasn't a very demonstative person (very British) and he said "you are my greatest achievements".

I think your answer is in there somewhere.

Cheers,
J

DonDaddyD

Clever Pun wrote:

he's not married, they're not even living together yet

In that case lets keep our heads on! You have to live with the woman for at least a year before you get her preggers.

I say a year at least because it takes that long to get used to the smell of all her high heeled shoes. Let alone be attracted to that smell. Ask LiTs.

CP wrote:

going to be more whipped than DDD

I'm only whipped because I like it!

I've been with my significant other for nearly 10 years now, if we (I mean she) choose(s) to have kids we'd get married as it's just easier that way. but as we're not religious there's no point in marriage imo

Ah marriage, thinking about it myself. However, my parents have yet to meet her parents and I've said that it ain't happening until this is done.

il_principe

Roastie wrote:

If you feel the need to procreate, you should. If you don't, you shouldn't.

Personally I like the idea of having kids at some point, but not sure if we will. Perhaps it is selfishness, maybe that I don't see the point. Or maybe that I'm just not wired that way. Sure, the instinct is there to want to sow the seed, but in my heart I don't think it is for me.

The problem is that it's not really a decision that's left to just you is it? I do suspect that some people have children simply because they 'feel' like they should, or their other half really wants them, just like I'm sure that many people marry whoever they're with when they hit their 30's, cos that's kinda what you do. All this stuff about 'the one' is a nonsense, I was with the same girl for nearly 5 years, had we met each other 5 years later I suspect we'd have ended up getting married - it seems to come down to timing.

Meh I'm feeling rather cynical today, cynical and nervous as I only have 3 more nights of bachelordom left. :shock:

always_tyred

Shoulder of Lamb wrote:

after a while you just get bored of not having kids and then you're not bored anymore.

I'm with IP on this one.

I can imagine lots of things I could do with the money I'd spend on children that would stave off any boredom for as many years as I can think ahead.

In the next government, there may be a tax advantage to marriage. Then I might be convinced. Other than that, its an excersise in giving the deposit you need for a new house, or car, or bike, to a greedy opportunist venue owner and caterers.

Christophe3967

If you have any doubts then 30 is perhaps too soon to be considering children. You still have at least a 10 year window to decide whether this is really something you want. Also you might have the option of being a 'real' uncle, something that could be much more fun - you get the interaction and involvement without all the other stuff - and you get to 'road test' someone else's children.

Sewinman

jedster wrote:

To be fair, nearly all of your downside points are completely accurate. The "lack of nookie" one may be an exception but only because that's going to happen in time with or without kids

That said, I have know regrets about having kids. In fact, I might have got on with it a little sooner if I had my time again (we married at 27 but didnt start a familly until we were both 32 - thought we weren't ready any earlier but I think we were).

The thing is, while being expensive and time consuming, they are a lot of fun and very rewarding. I don't see much of my kids in the week - half an hour in the morning and a peek at them when they are asleep when I get home - but they are very special moments. When I look at them sleeping, I have a very physical reaction - any stress seems to drain away and a grin spreads on my face. Normally on a Friday morning, they'll ask me "Daddy, is it the weekend tomorrow" and when I say yes, their faces just light up. They like school but the weekend means I'll be there. Their reaction just feels very good.

Little things like teaching them to ride a bike - charging round the park, steadying them and then finally seeing them wobble off... Their first words, the first words they read, the first story they read you... it's all just very satisfying.

And for most of us, what else do we do of any real significance over a lifetime? Hedonism is fine as far as it goes (and I don't mean debauchery, just doing what you enjoy) but I think at some point most of us would suffer existential angst ("what's it all for?"). Children provide one convincing answer.

The last night that my Dad was alive, my sister and I were sitting with him. He wasn't a very demonstative person (very British) and he said "you are my greatest achievements".

I think your answer is in there somewhere.

Cheers,
J

Beautiful :oops:







:twisted:

dynastarg9

I know it's profound:

You'll never be ready for them and once they're around you never want to be without them.
I've got a 10 month old daughter and she's amazing! Sure the bike gets out a little less than it used to. I'm not getting any less exercise though as I run with her in the buggy.

Everyday is a new experience for her and it's a privilege to be part of that.

So, what are you waiting for.. Grab the missus and don't waste any time!

Sewinman

Il Principe wrote:

Roastie wrote:

If you feel the need to procreate, you should. If you don't, you shouldn't.

Personally I like the idea of having kids at some point, but not sure if we will. Perhaps it is selfishness, maybe that I don't see the point. Or maybe that I'm just not wired that way. Sure, the instinct is there to want to sow the seed, but in my heart I don't think it is for me.

The problem is that it's not really a decision that's left to just you is it? I do suspect that some people have children simply because they 'feel' like they should, or their other half really wants them, just like I'm sure that many people marry whoever they're with when they hit their 30's, cos that's kinda what you do. All this stuff about 'the one' is a nonsense, I was with the same girl for nearly 5 years, had we met each other 5 years later I suspect we'd have ended up getting married - it seems to come down to timing.

Meh I'm feeling rather cynical today, cynical and nervous as I only have 3 more nights of bachelordom left. :shock:

You never know, you could be a jaffa and worrying about nothing.

il_principe

Christophe3967 wrote:

If you have any doubts then 30 is perhaps too soon to be considering children. You still have at least a 10 year window to decide whether this is really something you want. Also you might have the option of being a 'real' uncle, something that could be much more fun - you get the interaction and involvement without all the other stuff - and you get to 'road test' someone else's children.

This would be wonderful, unfortunately in order to do this I really need to be with a 30 year old when I'm 40, my GF is 29 and getting broody, I sense tricky waters ahead! I know a couple who had their first child when she was 38 and the pregnancy was a nightmare, let alone the birth (which lasted 16 hours I think), clearly 38 is a little late to be leaving things. Also I'm the eldest of four and none of my siblings are showing any inkling of marriage or kids, none whatsoever (much to one would be Grandma's increasing consternation).

Time is of the essence. I should have fallen in love with a younger model. :oops: :shock:

il_principe

Sewinman wrote:

You never know, you could be a jaffa and worrying about nothing.

Thanks Morgan :shock:

DonDaddyD

One thing I have to say. It stops being *uck me hard sex when you're trying for a baby. No 90degree angles when you're 'trying'.

I mean you're trying to create life, the deed suddenly becomes an act of grave responsiblity and maturity as oppose to an act of waton carnal filth with a slight physical pain filled with regret in the morning.

That's something that is going to be missed. Irresponsible sex. When she starts telling you the days you are going to do it because her womb is at the optimum setting. It's just not fun anymore.

teagar

Sounds to me, unlike whoever Florence and the machine is singing to, you don't have the love.

Makes all you reasons against obsolete...

Loving your other half, loving having childen, loving being a dad, loving having children with your other half, etc etc.

Apparantly.

alfablue

Serious answer:

If you want to stay with your partner, and your partner wants kids, then I think you have to. It is a biological imperative for many (but not all) women, and to be denied the chance to at least try for kids is bad, she will go to the grave unfulfilled. If you really don't want kids, part ways asap so she has the chance to find someone else who does (I did this with a partner some years ago - we are still best mates, but unfortunately her attempts to have kids have sadly, so far, ended in miscarriage - but at least she had the chance, I couldn't live with myself if I had prevented her).

I had 2 kids, boys, in my marriage. It was hard work, but rewarding, however, when the ex wife got completely psychopathic (and I am not using this term lightly!) and the marriage ended, it was extremely distressing, it was like losing my boys, made me thoroughly depressed, and made me question if it had been worth it. Years have passed, my lads are grown up and live far away (at uni / working), we have the best relationship ever, and they truly do love me as much as I love them, they are incredible! They are all coming to Bristol (with their g/f's) for a family bike ride / pub crawl / curry at the weekend

I now have a g/f (looks long term), who has had her kids and who is as averse to the idea of any more as I am. She is a keen cyclist, and I have recently converted her to be a beer lover! Life is great

I think it is natural to see the negatives, I saw them all, but I entered in to it as I was committed to the wife (I took that promise seriously - how young and stupid I was!).

So - man up, or ship out Il Principe Though I think you are just rehearsing the arguments in your mind (which is good) prior to accepting your fate.

jedster

All this stuff about 'the one' is a nonsense, I was with the same girl for nearly 5 years, had we met each other 5 years later I suspect we'd have ended up getting married - it seems to come down to timing.

Yeah, I totally agree.

I think the point of marriage (not being religious myself) is that you are making a clear commitment that you intend to spend the rest of your life together. WIthout marriage, that MAY not be clear, kind of "we're together for as long as it feels right".

From what I've seen of marriages, most of them have very difficult patches but generally people are glad that they work through them and came out the other side. I think being married makes it more likely that people will work through those difficult times rather than calling it quits.

Obviously it is entirely possible to not be married and still make the same commitments to each other so I'm generalising here and I think marriage is modestly helpful rather than a silver bullet.

andrewjoseph

if you need convincing to have kids, then you probably shouldn't have any.

they are not an accessory, they are not an afterthought. They will change your life forever, for good or bad.

You either need to have kids to feel complete, or you don't.

Eau Rouge

The point of marraige is the state's way of trying to avoid too much of a mess when you seperate, either through death or divorce. It's not a terribly romantic notion, but nevertheless it is the main reason to get married.

il_principe

andrewjoseph wrote:

You either need to have kids to feel complete, or you don't.

Yeah but surely the only way to know this is to have one? Problem is, you can't exactly take him/her back can you now?

I never knew my biological Dad so I want to be pretty damn sure that I'm going to be doing the right thing by having kids. Argh, it's a Catch22.

Don't hold with the argument someone made about not wanting kids meaning you're not in love with your partner though.

Anyway, it's not like I don't want them, I just have serious reservations. Time for a poll.

itboffin

All I can say is look at the former king of SCR Greg T is that what you want? Is it...!?

*Shudder*

Bassjunkieuk

*Cracks knuckles*

Having started rather young on the whole kids thing I was in a slightly advantageous position in that I have never really known any different. I left college about halfway through my second year, shortly after the now eldest arrived, so didn't do the whole partying/drugs/alcohol thing that is typical of college/university.

I can try and cover off some of the points you made:

Vomiting on you and your belongings, at home, in the shops, in the car, the cinema etc. - This one can be a pain, especially when they don't make it out of bed in the middle of the night, it can look like something out of the exorcist!

Pissing/crapping the bed/floor/car etc - See above, can be negated somewhat by keeping them in a nappy all the time but that's not really fair. Get plenty of those 3D clothes and some baby wipes for the non-urine, wooden floors help here :-)

Destroying your home, sticking toast in the Bluray player, putting their hands through framed photos, traipsing dirt everywhere - Can be grown out of eventually, I still however find I need to clean the telly weekly......

The massive lack of sleep - I'm a heavy sleeper ;-)

The spending entire weekends ferrying them about - Can't comment as this hasn't really happened yet......

The constant worry - I'm fairly laid back, again this might change once the 4 girls reach their teens

The enormous expense - This is a tricky one, it can become cheaper as time goes on as after the first one you have some of the bigger items out of the way such as buggy, cot, clothing. All things that can be re-used on the next one :-)

The ingratitude - That's just kids!

The arguments - I have enough with the other half, one's with the kids are easier to win

The inability to just 'pop out' without taking a buggy and enough wipes/nappies
/clothes/food to survive a nuclear holocaust - Fair point, but you get into a routine for this.

The lost cycling time - I still get some time to cycle (Wales :-)) and once they are older I imagine I'll be riding a lot with them!

The lack of nookie - NA, I'm not saying anymore except that I was rather fortunate with my wife

The nightmare of finding/applying for/getting into decent schools - I admit we got lucky on this one, we live 5-10 minutes walk away from one of the best schools in our area, once we got the eldest in it was no problems getting the others in :-)

The inevitable experiments with drugs & alcohol - I'd like to think I've raised them better then that, but only time will tell!

The fear that they will go completely off the rails/need to be supported until you die - Hadn't even crossed my mind! Cheers IP

No more sunday's spent watching footie and drinking wine - Not a footie or wine person but spending time with the kids just playing around is rather enjoyable, especially in summer when outside!

No more 'me' time basically until they've left home. :shock: - See UndercoverElephants post, sums it up pretty well :-)

For me some of the positives include never really having to give up playing with toys, the wife often says I'm the biggest kid :-) Water guns (and the ensuing water fights!), radio control cars, lego, an excuse to play in the various kids adventure areas (as I need to "supervise" :-)) the list is rather long!

Overall the good far outweighs the bad, all those sleepless nights, time spent cleaning beds and tidying up after them all seem insignificant when you see them do things like learning to walk, take, ride a bike properly or put in a cracking performance in the school play - the moments that make you so proud you could almost burst!