Astana: le merde hits the fan

BikingBernie

teagar wrote:

dougzz wrote:

I just can't stand the pretence it was all about the weight loss and the training and the attention to detail.

S'what my gut told me about Wiggins. :?

If you work it out from the figures he gave, prior to last year's Tour he was supposedly racing with a body fat percentage of almost 13%. (And he took pains to claim that his weight-loss program had been carefully managed so he didn't lose any muscle mass). He claimed that he slimmed down to 71 kg, losing 7 kg in the process, this leaving him with a 4% body fat level. So 4% of 71 kg is 2.84 kg, giving him a lean mass of 68.16 kg. His old body fat mass was 2.84 + 7 kg = 9.84 kg. This gives him an 'old' racing weight of 78kg with a body fat percentage of 12.6%. At my best my body fat percentage was around 10% and I still looked fat! :?

redddraggon

BikingBernie wrote:

teagar wrote:

dougzz wrote:

I just can't stand the pretence it was all about the weight loss and the training and the attention to detail.

S'what my gut told me about Wiggins. :?

If you work it out from the figures he gave, prior to last year's Tour he was supposedly racing with a body fat percentage of almost 13%. (And he took pains to claim that his weight-loss program had been carefully managed so he didn't lose any muscle mass). He claimed that he slimmed down to 71 kg, losing 7 kg in the process, this leaving him with a 4% body fat level. So 4% of 71 kg is 2.84 kg, giving him a lean mass of 68.16 kg. His old body fat mass was 2.84 + 7 kg = 9.84 kg. This gives him an 'old' racing weight of 78kg with a body fat percentage of 12.6%... :?

So do you believe him?

BikingBernie

redddraggon wrote:

So do you believe him?

On what ground should he be believed? That he is British? That he is a professional cyclist? If he was clean he did a remarkable job given the evidence showing that at least one of his main competitors was up to the old blood doping lark.

I would be more inclined to believe him if the 'explanatory' figures he gave were a bit more credible. This is where Armstrong fouled up, as every 'explanation' he gave for his miraculous transformation from Tour also-ran to multiple 'winner' failed to hold water, suggesting the real reason was being concealed: the old 'the proof is in the cover-up' principle.

BikingBernie

redddraggon wrote:

So do you believe him?

P.s. Do you believe that at his old racing weight he really had a 12.6% body fat percentage?

redddraggon

BikingBernie wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

So do you believe him?

P.s. Do you believe that at his old racing weight he really had a 12.6% body fat percentage?

Nope

DaveyL

BikingBernie wrote:

teagar wrote:

dougzz wrote:

I just can't stand the pretence it was all about the weight loss and the training and the attention to detail.

S'what my gut told me about Wiggins. :?

If you work it out from the figures he gave, prior to last year's Tour he was supposedly racing with a body fat percentage of almost 13%. (And he took pains to claim that his weight-loss program had been carefully managed so he didn't lose any muscle mass). He claimed that he slimmed down to 71 kg, losing 7 kg in the process, this leaving him with a 4% body fat level. So 4% of 71 kg is 2.84 kg, giving him a lean mass of 68.16 kg. His old body fat mass was 2.84 + 7 kg = 9.84 kg. This gives him an 'old' racing weight of 78kg with a body fat percentage of 12.6%. At my best my body fat percentage was around 10% and I still looked fat! :?

Puts everything out a bit if there was 1-2 kg of lean mass in that 7 kg though. Those calculations hinge on Bradders losing zero muscle mass, and you've already shown you're quite rightly not prepared to take what he says at face value...

avoidingmyphd

did he ever claim he lost ZERO muscle mass? I thought the claim was that he carefully managed his weight loss to MINIMISE muscle loss. He certainly talked about losing some top end power...

BikingBernie

avoidingmyphd wrote:

did he ever claim he lost ZERO muscle mass? I thought the claim was that he carefully managed his weight loss to MINIMISE muscle loss. He certainly talked about losing some top end power...

'I was climbing fairly well in the 2007 Tour, but I've lost seven kilos since then: 78 to 71. It's taken nine months, in little increments, without any sort of crash diet. I've had regular check‑ups with Nigel Mitchell, the nutritionist at the Olympic team, to make sure I'm only burning fat, not any muscle.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/20 ... -de-france

avoidingmyphd

touché bernie.

I still think we should take that as hyperbole before we do any maths to test its for truthfulness though.

calvjones

BikingBernie wrote:

avoidingmyphd wrote:

did he ever claim he lost ZERO muscle mass? I thought the claim was that he carefully managed his weight loss to MINIMISE muscle loss. He certainly talked about losing some top end power...

'I was climbing fairly well in the 2007 Tour, but I've lost seven kilos since then: 78 to 71. It's taken nine months, in little increments, without any sort of crash diet. I've had regular check‑ups with Nigel Mitchell, the nutritionist at the Olympic team, to make sure I'm only burning fat, not any muscle.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/20 ... -de-france

Whilst I share your skepticism, I wouldn't want every media interview I've ever done trawled for absolute scientific accuracy.

BikingBernie

Interestingly enough, he and his coach seem to be singing from a different song sheet now...

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Wiggins rode the Olympic Games last summer weighing 82kg. In the past he has ridden the Tour and Giro d'Italia at about 77kg or 78kg. The aim was to start the Tour this year at 72kg. It stands to reason that if you can produce 450 watts for 10 minutes weighing 72kg instead of 78, the gain in performance is going to be considerable. Enough, Parker says, to put him in the front group on the climbs.

"You develop a lot of muscle mass, particularly on the upper body, while training for the track over the winter," says Parker. "We wanted him to lose that, but to do it slowly, so that it didn't affect his power.

"Everyone has focused on the weight loss, but it's not been radical. It's been managed very sensibly and safely. If you lose weight too quickly you don't maintain the power and you can affect the immune system. Radical weight loss in sport is never good."

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... ation.html

So now he has gone from 82 kg to 71 kg, but a lot of that was supposedly upper body muscle mass. I can only ever remember him looking like a bean pole. Eleven kg is over 24lb. That's an awful lot of beefsteak!

Here he is when he was supposedly rippling with upper body muscle and weighing 82 kg.

BikingBernie

By the way, perhaps I should add that I would like to believe that Wiggins was clean, as he became something of a hero of mine for the way he used to speak out about doping. For example:

---

...Vinokourov - hopefully we'll never see him back in the sport which is encouraging for me really. These guys are looked upon as heroes to some young guys - but for me they're not the heroes of the Tour de France - they never were for me. I spent a lot of time in the group finishing an hour down most days and that's where the heroes are for me. Guys like Geriant Thomas, 21 years old - for the last two weeks I've watched him drag himself through the Alps and the Pyrenees on nothing but bread and water - for me - they are the real heroes of the Tour de France - not the guys on the million Euro contracts who are being done for blood transfusions and things like that.

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/web/si ... script.asp


Wiggins: Landis "took us riders for fools"

Bradley Wiggins of Cofidis is ashamed of his sport. "After last year's Tour de France I didn't feel proud to be a professional cyclist," he told the Daily Mirror. "And I feel the same now. Doping problems affect everyone in the peloton," noted the 26 year-old. "I've got children, a wife and a house and I could lose my livelihood because someone who tests positive finishes ahead of me. It's about time someone had some balls and told it how it was. There are enough of us who think the way I do."

"They say it's only one or two but I'm sure more people are doing these things. So it's my role as a role-model to expose it and not pretend it isn't happening," he continued. "I don't think it's right I should come up in front of everyone and put up a smokescreen and say everybody is OK and there are only one or two people doing this. My big motivation this year is to prove that you can win clean."

He was particularly upset at Tour de France winner Floyd Landis, who tested positive for testosterone. "I was really angry with Landis. It sickens me. He tested positive and then he was denying it. He took us riders for fools."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... feb05news2

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Unfortunately, the key phrase above is probably 'used to'. For example, I don't recall him having anything to say about the evidence that Armstrong was up to his old blood-doping tricks in last years Tour. Given that Armstrong kept him off the podium I have feeling the 'old' Wiggins would definitely have had something to say. 'It's about time someone had some balls and told it how it was....it's my role as a role-model to expose it and not pretend it isn't happening'... Mmmmm

DaveyL

Perhaps he's happier to shoot his mouth off about someone who's actually tested positive and been convicted, rather than someone whose blood values just look a bit suspect but no action is taken over them.

I believe he has also had something to say, via twitter, about more recent +ves.

But then again, you are very good at finding things which back up your "points" and ignoring things which don't.

dulldave

To be fair to Wiggins, I'm sure he has a view on quite a few riders. But he'd be a fool to speak out about them before they were caught. I doubt he thought DDL was clean at the Giro but he's hardly likely to say anything until he tests positive.

The difference between Wiggins and Lance is that when they do test positive Wiggins doesn't hold back in letting people know what he thinks.

Lance just talks about dodgy labs or people making mistakes.

iainf72

DaveyL wrote:

Perhaps he's happier to shoot his mouth off about someone who's actually tested positive and been convicted, rather than someone whose blood values just look a bit suspect but no action is taken over them.

Also, possibly, because if you apply similar standards which are being applied to Lance some of Wiggins blood values are "odd"

dave_1

so, when is the investigation going to be completed? They said they had caught Armstrong with drugs and stuff...we're waiting

Monty Dog

Knowing the French judicial process, I reckon the 'investigation' will be complete for the beginning of July

paulcuthbert

If it's an investigation against a team rather than an individual rider, doesn't that mean Astana might get kicked out of the Tour- rather than a rider getting a doping ban?

micron

But Astana could reasonably argue that the Tour winning team, management and infrastructure now trades under the name Radioshack - nothing to do with us guv.

thamacdaddy

I don't know what is so hard to believe about the weight loss, for me I am pretty sure he looks to have also lost muscle mass in his legs no matter what they say:




http://www.flickr.com/photos/slipstream ... 434625727/

iainf72

paulcuthbert wrote:

If it's an investigation against a team rather than an individual rider, doesn't that mean Astana might get kicked out of the Tour- rather than a rider getting a doping ban?

As they have individual DNA samples, I'd expected they'd target riders.

dave_1

micron wrote:

But Astana could reasonably argue that the Tour winning team, management and infrastructure now trades under the name Radioshack - nothing to do with us guv.

what if the DNA is matched to Alberto Contador-? And LA? Two teams out of the TDF. ASO will be working behind the scenes to make this go away

nickwill

Maybe Contador might be worried! Everybody seems happy to point fingers at Armstrong on here. When Armstrong was out of the sport, I seem to remember Contador having the nickname of 'Contadoper' on here. It's funny that when Armstrong returns all that is forgotten, and Contador can assume the hero's role that Ulrich played to the anti-Armstrong clique.
At present I would tend to regard Spanish riders with great cynicism, particularly those that are built like climbers, and yet time trial at a higher level than specialist time triallists.

afx237vi

Nickwill wrote:

Maybe Contador might be worried! Everybody seems happy to point fingers at Armstrong on here. When Armstrong was out of the sport, I seem to remember Contador having the nickname of 'Contadoper' on here. It's funny that when Armstrong returns all that is forgotten, and Contador can assume the hero's role that Ulrich played to the anti-Armstrong clique.
At present I would tend to regard Spanish riders with great cynicism, particularly those that are built like climbers, and yet time trial at a higher level than specialist time triallists.

It works two ways. Read the last couple of pages in this thread to see that some people are skeptical about time trial specialists who outclimb flyweight climbers.

symo

iainf72 wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Perhaps he's happier to shoot his mouth off about someone who's actually tested positive and been convicted, rather than someone whose blood values just look a bit suspect but no action is taken over them.

Also, possibly, because if you apply similar standards which are being applied to Lance some of Wiggins blood values are "odd"

Yes but as has been said look at what they say. Wiggins "Cheaters are scum" or Armstrong "People make mistakes". If he is not clean poor Bradley as one hell of sword to fall upon.

finchy

BikingBernie wrote:

Unfortunately, the key phrase above is probably 'used to'. For example, I don't recall him having anything to say about the evidence that Armstrong was up to his old blood-doping tricks in last years Tour. Given that Armstrong kept him off the podium I have feeling the 'old' Wiggins would definitely have had something to say. 'It's about time someone had some balls and told it how it was....it's my role as a role-model to expose it and not pretend it isn't happening'... Mmmmm

I'm coming into this a bit late, but given LA's past record of litigation, would you publicly accuse him of doping unless he tested positive?

Or, for that matter, anybody else?

In the past year I've seen him call Di Luca a w**ker and Ricco a parasite.

Monty Dog

Tested positive? - but he already has, except the statute of limitations prevented him from being charged. Read Lance to Landis if you want the details - following his injunction of Pierre Ballister and LA Confidentiale, the same facts were reproduced in L-2-L and no proceedings were issued

finchy

Monty Dog wrote:

Tested positive? - but he already has, except the statute of limitations prevented him from being charged. Read Lance to Landis if you want the details - following his injunction of Pierre Ballister and LA Confidentiale, the same facts were reproduced in L-2-L and no proceedings were issued

OK, I've never read the book, but it refers to Lance's 2nd cycling career, rather than 3rd. BikingBernie was, I believe, talking about LA doping in 09, and suggesting that Wiggins should have said something about that.

Rushie

You know, there are times when I am very jealous of the lifestyle of a professional rider. Fabulous ride locations, the luxury of being able to train all the time, bling bikes. And then I read about all the doping - both alleged and substantiated - and I am so glad that as a struggling Cat 4 who aspires only to the dizzy heights of Cat 3 that I am not going to be be found with anything stronger than coffee and doughnuts in my system.

jerry3571

Has anyone made the poor attempt at a joke that Lance is getting so old that incontinence is becoming an issue?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstro ... to-illness

Nah, not worth it I guess,

Cheers Jerry.

PS- I'm shocked that any pro cyclists have been involved in drugs; shocked, no really.... :shock: , good job I'm sat down. It's a shame that none of us are quick enough to get a pro contract and go and do an in depth undercover investigation on this issue. Less time on the computer and more on the bike Lads and Lasses!!