Astana: le merde hits the fan

lochindaal

Interesting how LA is jumped on so quickly. Contadors time trial looked the most potentially suspicious performance to me.

Couldn't care less about any of them just so long as if you have been cheating you get caught.

attica

lochindaal wrote:

Interesting how LA is jumped on so quickly. Contadors time trial looked the most potentially suspicious performance to me.

Couldn't care less about any of them just so long as if you have been cheating you get caught.

+1, Assuming Levi has dodged a bullet isn't it more likely that it's one of the lesser riders in the team who was riding on bread and water alone?

EDIT, crikey that sounds cynical

iainf72

Attica wrote:

+1, Assuming Levi has dodged a bullet isn't it more likely that it's one of the lesser riders in the team who was riding on bread and water alone?

EDIT, crikey that sounds cynical

Not really. I think because all of the team except Bertie have jumped ship to the Shack, it's more likely Bertie was excluded and was taking care of his own preparation

Unless one guy was excluded for him to be the first to come down for blood tests and the like.

markwalker

iainf72 wrote:

Attica wrote:

+1, Assuming Levi has dodged a bullet isn't it more likely that it's one of the lesser riders in the team who was riding on bread and water alone?

EDIT, crikey that sounds cynical

Not really. I think because all of the team except Bertie have jumped ship to the Shack, it's more likely Bertie was excluded and was taking care of his own preparation

Unless one guy was excluded for him to be the first to come down for blood tests and the like.

What does that mean?

attica

One guy didn't dope so he could present first and give clean blood while everyone else frantically cleaned their own blood up.

that's how I read it anyway

blazing_saddles

Latest conspiracy is that it's the krafty Kazakhs and that it's "Dear Departed Dimitri", who will be welcomed back into the fold. Bertie, is the other dodging the bullet.

Anyhow, if somebody fancies a Tour flutter on His Highness, now is the time.
Mysteriously, his odds seem to have dropped through the floor!
Those bookies don't miss a trick.

http://www.oddschecker.com/other-sports ... -de-france

sampras38

Unless they find any evidence of specific PED use, then as far as I'm concerned it's a lot of fuss about nothing...as per usual. Syringes are used for other stuff as well as drugs.

I'm not saying they're clean, but until there's more evidence I'll reserve judgement.

iainf72

sampras38 wrote:

Unless they find any evidence of specific PED use, then as far as I'm concerned it's a lot of fuss about nothing...as per usual. Syringes are used for other stuff as well as drugs.

I'm not saying they're clean, but until there's more evidence I'll reserve judgement.

Blood won't show up as a PED, will it?

I find the anti-hypertension drugs an interesting find.

moray_gub

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Latest conspiracy is that it's the krafty Kazakhs and that it's "Dear Departed Dimitri", who will be welcomed back into the fold. Bertie, is the other dodging the bullet.

Anyhow, if somebody fancies a Tour flutter on His Highness, now is the time.
Mysteriously, his odds seem to have dropped through the floor!
Those bookies don't miss a trick.

http://www.oddschecker.com/other-sports ... -de-france

Dropped through the floor ? lol he is a 10-1 shot 3rd fav according to that.

PBo

Moray Gub wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Latest conspiracy is that it's the krafty Kazakhs and that it's "Dear Departed Dimitri", who will be welcomed back into the fold. Bertie, is the other dodging the bullet.

Anyhow, if somebody fancies a Tour flutter on His Highness, now is the time.
Mysteriously, his odds seem to have dropped through the floor!
Those bookies don't miss a trick.

http://www.oddschecker.com/other-sports ... -de-france

Dropped through the floor ? lol he is a 10-1 shot 3rd fav according to that.

and thats the best price - he's as low as 7/2 on one site. 3rd fav seems reasonable....

tri-sexual

innocent until proven guilty,
all the cycling teams have medical teams with their own doctors (its the same as most other sports eg football, rugby etc) so its hardly surprising to find medical equipment travelling with the team.
the find of anti hypertension drugs (not a banned drug) is not relevant unless it is found in very large quantities and is PROVEN to be used a masking agent or used deliberately for performance enhancement. the drug can be for the personal use of one or more members of the team (includes ALL staff inc mechanics, cooks, publicity staff etc etc.) as a presciption drug for the control of an illness or disease.
the suggestion that its finding as significant is very misleading and dangerous (like a witch hunt where there is no evidence but people are found guilty and sentenced to death merely by lies and accusations).
coffee beans are often used to disguise the odour of drugs when smuggled, i'm surprised that the story did not say that coffee was found on the astana team bus then highlight its potential shady use and then go on to suggest that the team must be heroin smugglers and that the cycling team is a front for a drugs cartels (even though no heroin was found) the whole piece has NO evidence and lots of unproven accusations.
Matthew K (a very well known tv celebrity) was accused of being a paedophile a few years ago, the press and in fact the police "suggested" that during a search of his house that a number of "childrens videos" were found, the public made up their mind and decided that he must be guilty, these children videos were later discovered to be disney cartoons and not ones of an illegal nature- the guy was found not guilty but his reputation and life never recovered
i find it sad that many of you have already made up your minds from such poor journalism and have already found the astana team guilty without trial
i'm not saying that astana or indeed any of the teams are innocent or guilty of using performance enhanceing drugs but they MUST be found GUILTY before we pass judgement. we should all assume them to be innocent until proven otherwise and if they are found guilty then they should be punished with career ending bans
(20yrs or more), massive fines and imprisonment (for sporting fraud) not just the riders but team managers, doctors and suppliers and whoever had knowledge of it but turned a blind eye to it.

afx237vi

^ A true Christmas miracle - we've found a soulmate for Dennis!

Pokerface

tri-sexual wrote:

but they MUST be found GUILTY before we pass judgement.

Errr - no. We can make up our own minds thanks.


By the same token, Valverde could be considered 'innocent' too - until his ban goes worldwide, etc, etc.

This is an internet forum - not court of law and as such it's full of opinions that are not legally binding.


Just because someone dodges a bullet or manages to get off, doesn't make them innocent.


(I'm not making any judgement on this one myself yet though).

iainf72

Is having that kind of equipment illegal at a French sporting event?

Yes, yes it is. So if nothing else they appear to have broken the law of the land.

hommelbier

http://www.velo-club.net/article?sid=55957

Seems like JB isn't too troubled by all this according to todays reports. He has "a strong feeling of deja-vu" and puts it all down to a vendetta by the French media about which he can't really do anything. Not going to keep him awake at night anyway

shinyhelmut

hommelbier wrote:

http://www.velo-club.net/article?sid=55957

Seems like JB isn't too troubled by all this according to todays reports. He has "a strong feeling of deja-vu" and puts it all down to a vendetta by the French media about which he can't really do anything. Not going to keep him awake at night anyway

He's hardly likely to say;

Oh sh1t! I hoped you'd never find out about our blood doping procedures

is he?

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Is having that kind of equipment illegal at a French sporting event?

Yes, yes it is. So if nothing else they appear to have broken the law of the land.

I haven't seen the codified rules so you could be right... I can't help but feel people are clutching a straws...LA is smart, way way too smart to leave trails like that

Monty Dog

tri-sexual, unfortunately your whole argument has very little substance in this case.

If it can be demonstrated that this medical waste belongs to Astana - where there is no 'legal' justification in France for their use in sport - it's not about what's in the bags, its the use of the bags themselves that's the problem - compounded by the fact that there are trace elements of other substances in there, and potential DNA evidence then the whole lot is appearing to create an almighty stench.

dave_1

Monty Dog wrote:

tri-sexual, unfortunately your whole argument has very little substance in this case.

If it can be demonstrated that this medical waste belongs to Astana - where there is no 'legal' justification in France for their use in sport - it's not about what's in the bags, its the use of the bags themselves that's the problem - compounded by the fact that there are trace elements of other substances in there, and potential DNA evidence then the whole lot is appearing to create an almighty stench.

they will have to find something as they'll look silly if they find nothing...also, what really are the rules on drips and stuff...and what are the WADA rules? i admit I don't know...if you do, tell us? if you know what kit they found and what rule it broke, tell us

dave_1

http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/docu ... art_En.pdf

Article 2.6

http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/World ... 009_EN.pdf

blazing_saddles

Crickey Dave. That's a lot of homework you've been putting in!

This much was made clear, yesterday.
Deputy Prosecutor of Paris, Dominique Pérard said today that "the possession of infusion sets is itself a crime" It is also banned under WADA rules.
Its a criminal investigation. Potentially, with a heavy jail sentence and fine.
Of course, this won't be the case, in this instance. A prosecution could prove very difficult.


To me, this really all boils down to what comes out of the investigation and the way in which the ASO choose to interpretate the findings. I think the UCI will stand clear.
Of course, since it is criminal, they may not get to examine the findings.
Will we see the old hardline ASO coming out with a total ban on their races, or will Prudhomme adopt the more pragmatic and financially rewarding, wait and hope it blows itself out

Very much like OP in this respect.

dave_1

Blazing Saddles wrote:

This was made clear, yesterday.
Deputy Prosecutor of Paris, Dominique Pérard said today that "the possession of infusion sets is itself a crime" It is also banned under WADA rules.
Its a criminal investigation. Potentially, with a heavy jail sentence and fine.
Of course, this won't be the case, in this instance. A prosecution could prove very difficult.


To me, this really all boils down to what comes out of the investigation and the way in which the ASO choose to interpretate the findings. I think the UCI will stand clear.
Of course, since it is criminal, they may not get to examine the findings.
Will we see the old hardline ASO coming out with a total ban on their races, or will Prudhomme adopt the more pragmatic and financially rewarding, wait and hope it blows itself out

Very much like OP in this respect.

teams banned from using drips? Drs on a race not allowed to treat with drips?...do they have to cart riders to the ASO Dr for anything infusion like? Hotels 40 miles away? Sounds like BS to me And possession by whom?

sonny73

I've only just logged on today to read this, oh dear, oh dear... sad state of affairs.

dave_1

TUEs permit drips...

Langman

So if Astana had nothing to hide why didn't they let the UCI know that had transfusion kits.....

dave_1

Langman wrote:

So if Astana had nothing to hide why didn't they let the UCI know that had transfusion kits.....

what does a rider do if dehydrated or suffering food poisoning and 50 or 60 miles away from TDF medical center? No saline drip allowed? No glucose drips? S :?

teagar

Dave_1 wrote:

Langman wrote:

So if Astana had nothing to hide why didn't they let the UCI know that had transfusion kits.....

what does a rider do if dehydrated or suffering food poisoning and 50 or 60 miles away from TDF medical center? No saline drip allowed? No glucose drips? S :?

They ring the UCI, then do it?

NervexProf

Langman wrote:

So if Astana had nothing to hide why didn't they let the UCI know that had transfusion kits.....

Transfusion, Infusion, TUE's - I confess to being both lost,confused, if not wholly out of date..

I would like to hear from members, in simple language what the terms, mentioned in my first paragraph mean? - anyone?

Until then I retain a 'healthy' suspicion that the governing bodies, or is it the media? - who are seeking to bring down the successful?

moray_gub

Dave_1 wrote:

Monty Dog wrote:

tri-sexual, unfortunately your whole argument has very little substance in this case.

If it can be demonstrated that this medical waste belongs to Astana - where there is no 'legal' justification in France for their use in sport - it's not about what's in the bags, its the use of the bags themselves that's the problem - compounded by the fact that there are trace elements of other substances in there, and potential DNA evidence then the whole lot is appearing to create an almighty stench.

they will have to find something as they'll look silly if they find nothing...also, what really are the rules on drips and stuff...and what are the WADA rules? i admit I don't know...if you do, tell us? if you know what kit they found and what rule it broke, tell us

I suspect nobody really knows do they, there are posters in here who think they do and like to make themselves look like they know whats going on but the reality is they know the square root of diddly squat.

Jez mon

NervexProf wrote:

Until then I retain a 'healthy' suspicion that the governing bodies, or is it the media? - who are seeking to bring down the successful?

So long as I can retain a "healthy" suspicion that the UCI will do whatever they can to prevent Lance's name from being tarnished.