Astana: le merde hits the fan

The Prodigy

The very fact that this thread has tuned into an analysis of whether LA is good for the sport or not based on a story about possible doping practices would suggest that those supporting LA on this thread don't doubt his guilt, they are just prepared to look past it for the prosperity of the sport.

I do think some people get way over excited by a new doping story/investigation/bit of tittle tattle. They seem to live for the latest doping scoop.

Monty Dog

Quote: congrats on avoiding the question I asked yet again. Do you agree or disagree that big increases in viewing audience of racing are good for sponsorship? Yes or a no is all you need to say

Yes - of course big audiences are good for sponsorship - you don't need to be a marketing genius to work that one out. However, it's the sustainability of that audience and the attraction of the sport to the broader population that will guarantee it's survival - if pro cycling turns into some circus freakshow between teams sponsored by the drugs industry, it's not exactly attractive to the man on the street? If I was acting on behalf of a new business with sponsorship money, I'd be inclined to give it to the likes of Sky, Garmin and Columbia - teams that have brought more fresh sponsorship money into cycling than those with associations with individuals and practises that have tarnished this sport.

top_bhoy

The Prodigy wrote:

I do think some people get way over excited by a new doping story/investigation/bit of tittle tattle. They seem to live for the latest doping scoop.

In all fairness.....most doping stories turn out to have a large grain of truth about them. I have no doubt this latest one will eventually find something 'sinister' surrounding it also - whether it will be enough to catch the top Astana boys at the time.....who knows and I guess that what is being currently investigated.

rake

:|javascript:emoticon(':|') nobody knows

The Prodigy

Top_Bhoy wrote:

The Prodigy wrote:

I do think some people get way over excited by a new doping story/investigation/bit of tittle tattle. They seem to live for the latest doping scoop.

In all fairness.....most doping stories turn out to have a large grain of truth about them. I have no doubt this latest one will eventually find something 'sinister' surrounding it also - whether it will be enough to catch the top Astana boys at the time.....who knows and I guess that what is being currently investigated.

You may well be right about how much truth there is to them, I just find it strange that there seems to be such an appetite for them from some people on this forum. There is certainly more of an appetite for doping stories than actual pro racing stories from some members of the forum. All the lenghty threads tend to about one subject. They are certainly not about actual racing!

moray_gub

Monty Dog wrote:

I find it bizarre that some people seem to imply these activities are justified because it's good for the sport? It's also apparent that the argument appears to be polarised between those who are fans of the sport of cycling and those who feel that the unsullied reputations of a few are best for the sport.

You must be reading a different forum from me i havent seen anyone imply these actions (if proved) are justified becuase thay obviously arent.. What i have seen are several posters remaining to be convinced of any wrong doing yet and waiting to see how it pans out before condemning. So can i suggest you get off this cycling moral high horse you seem to be on .

moray_gub

The Prodigy

I just find it strange that there seems to be such an appetite for them from some people on this forum. There is certainly more of an appetite for doping stories than actual pro racing stories from some members of the forum. quote]

+1

dave_1

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

congrats on avoiding the question I asked yet again. Do you agree or disagree that big increases in viewing audience of racing are good for sponsorship? Yes or a no is all you need to say

Dave_1 wrote:

well done at avoiding the question...and sponsors that were personal sponsors of one rider and continued for 2 season after is not bad. Answer the question pls...

And bravo for asking a leading question that has nothing to do with the current investigation.
Not uncommon in certain sectors.

While viewing audiences probably have increased by a reasonable figure in the US, their starting point, I believe is low. No idea of his impact upon European viewing figures.
He's certainly made an impression upon the ardent cycling fans......most of it negative.

How about some statistics and evidence for us to go on, Dave? might help to get you diversionary question answered.
After all, it's apparent evidence and multiple links is what got this thread up and running.

AS for 7 magical TUEs appearing. Aren't these now not back datable?

Can't really be bothered starting a new thread, see below...you sending off your CV to pro teams hoping one of them will find a vacancy for you for 2010? I doubt it...and that explains a lot of how you see the sport's problems

http://www.morethanthegames.co.uk/cycli ... ures-surge

afx237vi

Moray Gub wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

What races were on TV last year that I wasn't able to watch in previous years? There was less cycling on Eurosport last year - no Tour de Suisse, no Pais-Vaso, no Gent-Wevelgem. They probably blew the budget on "Planet Armstrong".

None of those races were shown in season 2008 on Europsort prior to Armstrong's return so irrelevant to the discussion. As to your question Tour of Calif was live this year so even if thats all there was its still had an effect on your viewing.........no ?

G-W and Pais-Vasco most definitely were live in 2008, but I agree that it is irrelevant to the discussion, as is the whole thread-inside-a-thread about LA's effect on cycling sponsorship What is has to do with medical equipment being found in the Astana camp, I don't know.

calvjones

This 'sport' doesn't deserve to grow. It's by and large venal, corrupt, uncaring of the life outcomes of participants; DS' are overwhelmingly prepared to bully, dope and cheat their way to success; the governing body (like Dave seems to) places growth and attention above all ethics and will bend over backward to protect a rider who greased their palms with $400k (?) of money that has no audit trail.

Armstrong's fault? No, been like this forever. But cycling has no 'right' to grow unless it can prove its house is in order. If it doesn't, it will die as a pro sport an only we will notice.

So we'd better start by giving up on defending this shower of sh1te that was Astana '09, which plainly represents pretty much all that is wrong with this sport. And don't give me 'innocent until proven guilty' please, cos not one of you would bet a plugged nickel that Astana were using blood bags and drips for above board purposes.

Or is it just me


:P

top_bhoy

No...Dave_1 attitude shows how much the sport (and he) would prefer young athletes to put their lives on the line through drug use rather than try and clean the sport up.

dave_1

Top_Bhoy wrote:

No...Dave_1 attitude shows how much the sport (and he) would prefer young athletes to put their lives on the line through drug use rather than try and clean the sport up.

I think David Millar was right when he said the pro scene is getting a lot cleaner and riders aren't faced with the choices the likes of him had...in which case you are perhaps exaggerating things with your "young athletes putting their lives on the line" posting...things maybe improving more than you think

moray_gub

calvjones wrote:

This 'sport' doesn't deserve to grow. It's by and large venal, corrupt, uncaring of the life outcomes of participants; DS' are overwhelmingly prepared to bully, dope and cheat their way to success; the governing body (like Dave seems to) places growth and attention above all ethics and will bend over backward to protect a rider who greased their palms with $400k (?) of money that has no audit trail.

Armstrong's fault? No, been like this forever. But cycling has no 'right' to grow unless it can prove its house is in order. If it doesn't, it will die as a pro sport an only we will notice.

So we'd better start by giving up on defending this shower of sh1te that was Astana '09, which plainly represents pretty much all that is wrong with this sport. And don't give me 'innocent until proven guilty' please, cos not one of you would bet a plugged nickel that Astana were using blood bags and drips for above board purposes.

Or is it just me


:P

I get a laugh when prophets of doom like you get all dramatic like this you remind me of this guy

.

irrespective of how this turns out the cycling season will soon start and the year after that it will start again and so on and so on. Its not going to die as a pro sport as a result of this so calm yourself

paulcuthbert

Moray Gub wrote:

The Prodigy

I just find it strange that there seems to be such an appetite for them from some people on this forum. There is certainly more of an appetite for doping stories than actual pro racing stories from some members of the forum. quote]

+1

+2

dave_1

paulcuthbert wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

The Prodigy

I just find it strange that there seems to be such an appetite for them from some people on this forum. There is certainly more of an appetite for doping stories than actual pro racing stories from some members of the forum. quote]

+1

+2

+3

top_bhoy

I don't know what you guys expect. Its a quiet time with all the major signings and moves been made and the team of the previous TdF winner and also a 7 times TdF winner has been the subject of a news story involving doping. I can't remember posters saying anyone is guilty yet (though I am sure some hope he is) - but it is a topic for discussion. If this is not news to be discussed, what is?

moray_gub

Top_Bhoy wrote:

I don't know what you guys expect. Its a quiet time with all the major signings and moves been made and the team of the previous TdF winner and also a 7 times TdF winner has been the subject of a news story involving doping. I can't remember posters saying anyone is guilty yet (though I am sure some hope he is) - but it is a topic for discussion. If this is not news to be discussed, what is?

You didnt see Calv Jones' post from earlier then ? He is just one of the many with minds already made up regarding guilt . Anyway nobody as far as i can see is saying its not to be discussed how could we anyway its an open forum , we are merely pointing out that for some it seems that there raison d'être for being here is doping stories.

blazing_saddles

Dave_1 wrote:

Can't really be bothered starting a new thread, see below...you sending off your CV to pro teams hoping one of them will find a vacancy for you for 2010? I doubt it...and that explains a lot of how you see the sport's problems

http://www.morethanthegames.co.uk/cycli ... ures-surge

Thanks for the link, Dave. That is interesting. I genuinely hadn't seen anything on this. Quite a bump, even in Europe.

As for not getting a job with most pro teams. That says more about their attitudes to the sport's problems, than ours.

blazing_saddles

Moray Gub wrote:

You didnt see Calv Jones' post from earlier then ? He is just one of the many with minds already made up regarding guilt .

Your mind is equally made up, regarding guilt, just in the opposite way.
Isn't that the way a forum is supposed to work?

The Prodigy

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

You didnt see Calv Jones' post from earlier then ? He is just one of the many with minds already made up regarding guilt .

Your mind is equally made up, regarding guilt, just in the opposite way.
Isn't that the way a forum is supposed to work?

I thought MG said he was yet to be convinced?? How the hell some people can jump all over this story with such gusto as they have on this thread is sad. I wonder why they get so wound up about it all. Its the never ending pro racing forum story. When does the bloody racing start.

Where is Frenchie with some nice pictures!!! Would be alot better than all this doom, gloom, everybody is guilty, the end is nye rubbish.

k-dog

Oh... and to be a bit pedantic the title of this thread should be "Astana: La merde hits the fan" - Merde is quite appropriately feminine - Wink

Fantastic! Pedantry on a whole new level.

calvjones

k-dog wrote:

Oh... and to be a bit pedantic the title of this thread should be "Astana: La merde hits the fan" - Merde is quite appropriately feminine - Wink

Fantastic! Pedantry on a whole new level.

Pedantry and misogyny in one. Gotta love it

back on topic; can someone explain To me how exactly Astana can be innocent here if illegal infusion equipment was discovered on their medical gear? Even JB isn't suggesting it was planted is he?

blazing_saddles

The Prodigy wrote:

I thought MG said he was yet to be convinced?

Of what, exactly?

Do I believe some of the equipment found is illegal in France? Yes
Do I believe the french found 7 seperate DNA strands? Yes
Has any illegal substance been linked to said DNA? No
Have I seen direct proof that doping took place? No
Do I think this will lead to a prosecution of either JB, or LA? Very unlikely, IMO
Will the ASO not invite The Shack To the Tour? No idea, as yet.

Is this a long way from what MG thinks?
Not sure, but he seems to be saying it's a different story.

moray_gub

Blazing Saddles wrote:

The Prodigy wrote:

I thought MG said he was yet to be convinced?

Of what, exactly?

Do I believe some of the equipment found is illegal in France? Yes
Do I believe the french found 7 seperate DNA strands? Yes
Has any illegal substance been linked to said DNA? No
Have I seen direct proof that doping took place? No
Do I think this will lead to a prosecution of either JB, or LA? Very unlikely, IMO
Will the ASO not invite The Shack To the Tour? No idea, as yet.

Is this a long way from what MG thinks?
Not sure, but he seems to be saying it's a different story.

Thanks for making up my mind for me as i havent actually offered an opinion on this latest allegations as of yet, i have merely commenetd on the glee and back slapping going on amongst some posters in here yourself included at the linking LA to a live drug story. Lets wait and see what pans out before apportioning guilt like most things like this the truth lies somewhere between the two positions.

rake

nobody knows how many sporting greats were taking supplements when testing was in its infancy.

Tusher

Blimey- did you lot not have sprouts to cook, turkeys to carve and dishes to wash up recently? What a lot of posts to catch up on.


Nothing to add to Blazing Saddles' words of wisdom, but does anyone with more time and better French than myself know what's being said on the French forums (or should that be fori- my Latin was better then my French. Shame no-one still speaks it.) Ho-hum.

shinyhelmut

Tusher wrote:

(or should that be fori- my Latin was better then my French. Shame no-one still speaks it.) Ho-hum.

fora surely? Isn't fori Latin for spectacles? ;-)

Echo et les Boniments

Tusher wrote:

does anyone with more time and better French than myself know what's being said on the French forums (or should that be fori- my Latin was better then my French. Shame no-one still speaks it.) Ho-hum.

I believe St. Lance gets a few more haters on French forums than in here but then he probably has more supporters and more people that don't really mind him than you would imagine. These days the average French bike racing fan is too cynical to hate. That said, the 'debate' is pretty much the same...

" About time... Same old story, much ado about nothing... No, this time they're done... No they aren't, Lance's too clever... That Armstrong guy I hate him, he killed bike racing and now he must pay... Yeah I hate him too, he's done so much harm... Shut up twats Lance is a hero... A hero? Lance is evil... No he ain't you're just jealous... Would you diss him if he was French?... Well I dunno, for one French teams don't do this kind of things... How do you know they don't? French teams DON'T dope! You mean French teams like Festina or Cofidis?... They found nothing, it's just those Le Monde basterds at it again, taking another cheap shot at our sport... Na, this time they found the kits. Astana will have to explain themselves. Man, even if they found something they wouldn't tell you, Lance's friends with Sarkozy... Come on, these days the Tour's a travelling freak show, they're all using PEDs anyway... Cycling is dead... No it ain't dead, the new generation is different, Andy Schleck is clean, he's the real 2009 Tour winner... Andy Schleck? Are you for real'? That guy's managed by Mr 60% for chrissake... I know he's clean... What do you know actually? You weren't there... By "clean" do you mean he uses untraceable stuff? Well I mean cleaner of course but then why don't they search for doping in Footie or tennis? Yeah... As usual cycling's the scapegoat! They're out to destroy pro cycling! They've no respect for champions! They're trying to get rid of cheats you dumbass... What cheats? Where's the proof in all this? France's just a nation of whiny losers, we just cannot stand the fact we do not rule anymore, Lance's simply the best! Listen ya anus-licker, if you don't like it here why don't you move to America? Pro bike racing is a sick joke... If it's a sick joke why are you on this forum? Just to wind up naive idiots like you...

You get the idea. Well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Tusher

Merci, Echo.


(Fora, fora, yes, of course it is, must remember, f-o-r-a)

dulldave

Fora is the Latin, Forums is the English. Now you've got me started