OT - Is there an All Powerful entity out there?
Comments
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Il Principe wrote:Wallace1492 wrote:To me the first step to uniting the people of the world is the realisation that there is no god/big man/allah. Then we can maybe start making this a better planet for everyone.
Religion or no religion there will always be discord among humanity I'm afraid.
although i'm critical of lots of aspects of religion, and see the role it has played in conflicts etc. we need to be careful about causality..
humans seem to naturally form social groupings (which has some logic from a survival point of view) but then differentiate themselves against others. look at football hooligans - no religion there, and of course football has nothing to do with it really, it's just a convenient vehicle to use for the conflict between groups.
so i don't think religion causes us to form social groups, nor caused our natural instinct for conflict between those groups - but it sure as hell is good at hitching a ride on those instincts and then amplifying the effect which does help its own survival.
have i just described parasitical behaviour?0 -
Wallace1492 wrote:What I do believe is that as we mature as a species, we will drift away from religion. We can seperate out the concepts of right and wrong, good and evil, make laws, have sophisticated societies and economies, all without the need for religion behind it. As we further mature, the need for religion decreases, and I think it will naturally die out.
This assumes several things, off the top of my head two things are:
i) God is in fact not real and no one can truly answer that question.
ii) We stay on our evolutionary and technical path and not destroy our civilisation and have to rebuild from the ground up. Think Planet of the Apes where the Humans worshipped a nuclear weapon.
The thing you're not considering Wallace is that while we both believe that Humans don't need religion in its current format. We have throughout history worshipped or made deities of things we don't fully understand. Our ability to peceive beyond our perceptions (i.e. you can visualise a main road, full of cars and know the sound and smell) has also given us the ability to believe in metaphysical things that aren't there like God. It's with us and arguably part of our nature.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
WheezyMcChubby wrote:Wallace1492 wrote:What I do believe is that as we mature as a species, we will drift away from religion. We can seperate out the concepts of right and wrong, good and evil, make laws, have sophisticated societies and economies, all without the need for religion behind it. As we further mature, the need for religion decreases, and I think it will naturally die out.
How would we do that?
Surely you do not need someone wearing a frock, quoting another guy who lived thousands of years ago to tell you what is right and wrong, good and evil. Can you not think for yourself and decide on these values as a compassionate human being?
Right and wrong, good and evil are the values that we live with as a society, that we have as human beings. These have absolutely nothing, at all to do with religion. Religion has hijacked them for its own purposes."Encyclopaedia is a fetish for very small bicycles"0 -
Wallace1492 wrote:
What I do believe is that as we mature as a species, we will drift away from religion. We can seperate out the concepts of right and wrong, good and evil, make laws, have sophisticated societies and economies, all without the need for religion behind it. As we further mature, the need for religion decreases, and I think it will naturally die out.
It will however take some time, as a lot of religion's are at different points and there are a lot of splinter groups that get formed for their own purposes, from virtually all religions.
Was typing my previous response whilst you posted this.
I don't think this will happen, because as in my previous post, religion has become a very good parasite. Because the worlds major religions are massive, powerful, entrenched institutions (and that is not meant as a value judgement), they will not let go of us so easy....
it's easy on an individual level to be mature and sophisticated enough to reject the idea of a deity - but it is hell of a lot harder for society to unentwine the threads of organised religion running through it.0 -
so i don't think religion causes us to form social groups, nor caused our natural instinct for conflict between those groups - but it sure as hell is good at hitching a ride on those instincts and then amplifying the effect which does help its own survival.
Our species survived to evolve into us because we have a hieghtend sense of social structure. There is no way pre-humans could have survived without working in groups. Its part of our instinct.
Equally we naturally fear what is different and what we don't understand. Often resorting to destorying it.
Intelligence and knoweldge and a drive to understand developed over 1000s years has helped us overcome the above though we may still sucumb to that base destructful instinct.Wheezy wrote:Wallace wrote:We can seperate out the concepts of right and wrong, good and evil.
How would we do that?
You writing that tells me you don't read my posts.
In short, religion didn't give us our moral compass or sense of right or wrong.
Our sense of society and laws existed long before the paper the first New testament was even invented.
Even Apes (like Gorilla's and Chimps) have a social structure with its own laws of do's and don'ts. Good and evil are just concepts born out of do and don't's and the emotions felt afterwards.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:Wallace1492 wrote:What I do believe is that as we mature as a species, we will drift away from religion. We can seperate out the concepts of right and wrong, good and evil, make laws, have sophisticated societies and economies, all without the need for religion behind it. As we further mature, the need for religion decreases, and I think it will naturally die out.
This assumes several things, off the top of my head two things are:
i) God is in fact not real and no one can truly answer that question.
ii) We stay on our evolutionary and technical path and not destroy our civilisation and have to rebuild from the ground up. Think Planet of the Apes where the Humans worshipped a nuclear weapon.
The thing you're not considering Wallace is that while we both believe that Humans don't need religion in its current format. We have throughout history worshipped or made deities of things we don't fully understand. Our ability to peceive beyond our perceptions (i.e. you can visualise a main road, full of cars and know the sound and smell) has also given us the ability to believe in metaphysical things that aren't there like God. It's with us and arguably part of our nature.
You are correct in the assumptions. I have to assume i am right, otherwise there is no point in writing these. But by making my own assumptions, then i am by default conflicting with many others views!! This does not help the "everyone pulling together" concept. Not till we either all abandon religion, or all all follow the one true religion, whatever that is, after all there is either 1 or none.....
Yes, I am assuming we develop, but who knows how. Maybe we will escape from worshipping what we do not understand, maybe it will not be part of our nature - actually i don't agree that it is, I think we are inquisitive, and always seeking answers, where none were forthcoming, religion took its place.
I think we will be more factual based, seeking answers, but from facts rather than God's.
My head hurts now..... I think it is too early in the year for such a philosophical debate!! :shock:"Encyclopaedia is a fetish for very small bicycles"0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:You writing that tells me you don't read my posts.
I did and was interested in what you had to say, though at the time didn;t have the time to come back with all the the reasons why I thought you were wrong.
This discussion really requires a couple of pints, pity the Morpeth is about 400 miles away.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Wallace1492 wrote:Maybe we will escape from worshipping what we do not understand
If I worshipped what I didn't understand I'd be prostrate in front of my phone for a start.
In fact I'd pretty much have to give up mu day job and draw up a long list of major and minor deities to pray to.
My swipe card at work - doesn't even touch the scanner - major God
Plastic - made from oil somehow - no idea - member of first circle of angels
Biro - ink is dry on paper but never dries in the tube - fantastical
Time - bends around planets - runs faster closer to heavy stuff - I don't know just saw it on telly - Top order stuff.
Telly.
Microwaves - how does that work?Fixed gear for wet weather / hairy roadie for posing in the sun.
What would Thora Hurd do?0 -
Wallace1492 wrote:You are correct in the assumptions. I have to assume i am right, otherwise there is no point in writing these. But by making my own assumptions, then i am by default conflicting with many others views!! This does not help the "everyone pulling together" concept. Not till we either all abandon religion, or all all follow the one true religion, whatever that is, after all there is either 1 or none.....
Here's another option for you. How about we leave people to their own individual choice of whether they choose to practice or not practice a religion? How about we don't try to enforce or preach either way.Yes, I am assuming we develop, but who knows how. Maybe we will escape from worshipping what we do not understand, maybe it will not be part of our nature - actually i don't agree that it is, I think we are inquisitive, and always seeking answers, where none were forthcoming, religion took its place.
I think we will be more factual based, seeking answers, but from facts rather than God's.
My head hurts now..... I think it is too early in the year for such a philosophical debate!! :shock:
Lol, facts?
Which religion are you speaking of?
Fact is there are too many examples of religions, some 3000yrs older than Jesus for me to think that 'religion' was merely an answer to unanswerable questions. There is too many examples of worship around the World (when one group of worshipers weren't even aware of the other - Aztec and Egypt for example) for a species to collectively (on a global scale) decide that religion would simply be a tool for what we cannot comprehend. There are also too many common trends between religions of varying era's for us to not consider them as having some plausible justification of actually being true, in whatever capacity that truth is.
I choose not to follow religion, but I will remain openminded about them and their teachings, when those teachings are of a positive nature.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
I think you're right - gods are a substitute for the unknown and a prop for those who can't make their own decisions. Once it was the weather, the return of the sun, crops growing or failing - now we know largely how such things work gods have become more of a moral issue than a physical being - I suspect as we learn more there will be less room for gods - except for those people who do what the little voices tell them to.
We should not confuse gods with wonder though - just because we know a star collapses when the energy from its internal reaction becomes insufficient to sustain it doesn't make it any the less fascinating0 -
It's the wife in our house.......0
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WheezyMcChubby wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:You writing that tells me you don't read my posts.
I did and was interested in what you had to say, though at the time didn;t have the time to come back with all the the reasons why I thought you were wrong.
This discussion really requires a couple of pints, pity the Morpeth is about 400 miles away.
Religion didn't give me a sense of good or bad. Life did. What your suggesting is that religion shaped my life, it didn't.
Which religion gives us a sense of right or wrong or shapes our emotions and moral compass? Were these different when said religion wasn't so widely practiced? What you're saying is that religion has shaped all of our social practices. Societies and its rules existed before religion and the religion of that society has been known to change without much impact of the moral compass of the people. You are entitled to your blind refusal of what I'm saying, which is fine my beliefs don't require me to know that you think I'm right.Greg T wrote:If I worshipped what I didn't understand I'd be prostrate in front of my phone for a start.
In fact I'd pretty much have to give up mu day job and draw up a long list of major and minor deities to pray to.
My swipe card at work - doesn't even touch the scanner - major God
Plastic - made from oil somehow - no idea - member of first circle of angels
Biro - ink is dry on paper but never dries in the tube - fantastical
Time - bends around planets - runs faster closer to heavy stuff - I don't know just saw it on telly - Top order stuff.
Telly.
This is funny, but put all these things infront of someone born 200years ago and they'd call it witch craft and have you burned at the stake for possessing such magic.Jay wrote:I think you're right - gods are a substitute for the unknown and a prop for those who can't make their own decisions. Once it was the weather, the return of the sun, crops growing or failing - now we know largely how such things work gods have become more of a moral issue than a physical being - I suspect as we learn more there will be less room for gods - except for those people who do what the little voices tell them to.
We should not confuse gods with wonder though - just because we know a star collapses when the energy from its internal reaction becomes insufficient to sustain it doesn't make it any the less fascinating
The way the Universe works, I'm sure that if god was real there would be some sciencentific application to his feats, doesn't make the 'creator' any less of a God.
I.e. If I created artificial life ala Skynet or iRobot or somethign Asimov, regardless of the means would I not be its creator. Now if it decided to worship me to it, would I not be God irrespective of what means I used to create it.
No one said a or any God uses magic (or is even self aware in the way that we understand it) all that is said is that they have done stuff that merited worship.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:Wallace1492 wrote:You are correct in the assumptions. I have to assume i am right, otherwise there is no point in writing these. But by making my own assumptions, then i am by default conflicting with many others views!! This does not help the "everyone pulling together" concept. Not till we either all abandon religion, or all all follow the one true religion, whatever that is, after all there is either 1 or none.....
Here's another option for you. How about we leave people to their own individual choice of whether they choose to practice or not practice a religion? How about we don't try to enforce or preach either way.
I am all for that, but would fear that those practicing a religion would assume that they are correct and try and convert everyone else! I am not talking about options though, I am merely speculating as to what will happen, my speculation is that religious beliefs will die out as time goes by, faster in some area's than others. We are talking hunderds of years though...Yes, I am assuming we develop, but who knows how. Maybe we will escape from worshipping what we do not understand, maybe it will not be part of our nature - actually i don't agree that it is, I think we are inquisitive, and always seeking answers, where none were forthcoming, religion took its place.
I think we will be more factual based, seeking answers, but from facts rather than God's.
My head hurts now..... I think it is too early in the year for such a philosophical debate!! :shock:
Lol, facts?
Which religion are you speaking of?
Fact is there are too many examples of religions, some 3000yrs older than Jesus for me to think that 'religion' was merely an answer to unanswerable questions. There is too many examples of worship around the World (when one group of worshipers weren't even aware of the other - Aztec and Egypt for example) for a species to collectively (on a global scale) decide that religion would simply be a tool for what we cannot comprehend. There are also too many common trends between religions of varying era's for us to not consider them as having some plausible justification of actually being true, in whatever capacity that truth is.
I choose not to follow religion, but I will remain openminded about them and their teachings, when those teachings are of a positive nature.
I was not speaking of a particular religion, i mean we will follow facts rather than religious teachings. Religious teachings are all very well when they co-incide with your natural thoughts of right and wrongs, or other things you agree with, but then they can subtly start brainwashing.... that is how they get the following.
As to historic worshipping - Aztec's etc, all people have common ancestor, therefore common traits. The Sun rises, the moon circles, there are stars, clouds, rain, harvests etc., it is not surprising that there are common trends, all for the same reason. There are dozens of other common trends - weapon development, farming, clothes, so why not the form of worship.
I too choose not to follow any religion, although I was brought up in one, till I could make up my own mind. Now, looking at them all from the outside, although some of the teachings on most are quite acceptable, you do not need religion for this, and we would be better off without them.
However, it may never happen..... but my belief is that it will eventually die out."Encyclopaedia is a fetish for very small bicycles"0 -
Always Tyred wrote:We could have a referrendum.
And keep having them until we came up with the right answer
Bike1
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Bike 2
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New Bike
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PBo wrote:Because the worlds major religions are massive, powerful, entrenched institutions (and that is not meant as a value judgement), they will not let go of us so easy....
it's easy on an individual level to be mature and sophisticated enough to reject the idea of a deity - but it is hell of a lot harder for society to unentwine the threads of organised religion running through it.
I disagree. If individually we all turn away from religion, they will collapse. They rely on the hard core of supporters and the income from them. They have no choice, they have to let you go, humans have moved on, it is not the middle ages..... well not for Western European religions. As I said different tribes are at different stages of evolution, much the same was as economic evolution.
Some tribes have virtually elimanated religion from the state paraphenalia, others have a long way to go.
Agree with Wheezy this discussion over a pint would be good...... but pretty glad it will not happen.... could turn nasty!! :P"Encyclopaedia is a fetish for very small bicycles"0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:WheezyMcChubby wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:You writing that tells me you don't read my posts.
I did and was interested in what you had to say, though at the time didn;t have the time to come back with all the the reasons why I thought you were wrong.
This discussion really requires a couple of pints, pity the Morpeth is about 400 miles away.
Religion didn't give me a sense of good or bad. Life did. What your suggesting is that religion shaped my life, it didn't.
Which religion gives us a sense of right or wrong or shapes our emotions and moral compass? Were these different when said religion wasn't so widely practiced? What you're saying is that religion has shaped all of our social practices. Societies and its rules existed before religion and the religion of that society has been known to change without much impact of the moral compass of the people. You are entitled to your blind refusal of what I'm saying, which is fine my beliefs don't require me to know that you think I'm right.
In order
You weren't raised in a vacuum though?
Tends to be the religion we are 'born into' or one we adopt in later life. However the major religions have much in common
When was this time that religion of one form or another wasn't widely practiced?
I may disagree with you but don't assume I do it blindly.
On the other hand I may not disagree with you, I may just be interested in how you think“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
WheezyMcChubby wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:WheezyMcChubby wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:You writing that tells me you don't read my posts.
I did and was interested in what you had to say, though at the time didn;t have the time to come back with all the the reasons why I thought you were wrong.
This discussion really requires a couple of pints, pity the Morpeth is about 400 miles away.
Religion didn't give me a sense of good or bad. Life did. What your suggesting is that religion shaped my life, it didn't.
Which religion gives us a sense of right or wrong or shapes our emotions and moral compass? Were these different when said religion wasn't so widely practiced? What you're saying is that religion has shaped all of our social practices. Societies and its rules existed before religion and the religion of that society has been known to change without much impact of the moral compass of the people. You are entitled to your blind refusal of what I'm saying, which is fine my beliefs don't require me to know that you think I'm right.
In order
You weren't raised in a vacuum though?
Tends to be the religion we are 'born into' or one we adopt in later life. However the major religions have much in common
When was this time that religion of one form or another wasn't widely practiced?
I may disagree with you but don't assume I do it blindly.
On the other hand I may not disagree with you, I may just be interested in how you think
Some good points Wheezy. I was brought up in a religion, it gives a grounding in right and wrong. My point is that you do not need the religion for that. It is a by product. I was also given a grounding in a lot of other things that now seem just ridiculous, but I have been able to make my own mind up.
Yes, the major western religions have plenty in common, as they all have a common ancestor. A bit like saying all humans have something in common.
As people turn away and question the religions, they too are evolving with ever more fanciful tales - e.g. Intelligent Design, this is a desperate throw of the dice to keep punters on board. What's the alternative - completely collapse and just admit the stuff they have been spouting for 2,000 is a pile of made up fairy tales. It is just a matter of time.....
As far as I am concerned religion is now a spent force, however the transition period will be long and bloody...."Encyclopaedia is a fetish for very small bicycles"0
