OT - Is there an All Powerful entity out there?

Wallace1492

I believe that religion, and belief in a higher being is there for people who cannot accept that this is it. They have to believe that there must be more. It really astonishes me that so many people can fall for it, and "believe" in something blindly without any proof, and with no eveidence. Even some of the most intelligent and learnered people blindly believe.

It is in the constitution of many countries, yet there is no proof!! "In God We Trust", why not change it to "In Mickey We Trust" would make as much sense.

Don't get me wrong though, there will have been plenty of good people throughout the ages teaching tolerance and peace, and maybe one such lived 2,000 years ago. Right and wrong, good and evil, they have nothing at all to do with religion, but natural justice in a fair and balanced society.

Religions exploit people for their own ends, and the sooner all are outlawed the better.

shouldbeinbed

WheezyMcChubby wrote:

34 voters don't believe in the existence of God.

Uncharacteristc serious moment

Has this position ever been seriously challenged and were you still a non believer?

Ever watched a relative die, been called to the hospital having got a phonecall that your pregnant wife was having stomach pains and been rushed away in an ambulance, called to the hospital because an infant child had stopped breathing, layed awake in the middle of the night wondering if that lump is cancer?

yes father 14 stone fit and healthy to 6 stone belsen victim in 6 months died an agonising awful death

6 year old son survived a large malignant tumour inside his head that still gives him problems and requires lots more reconstructive hospital visits now he's getting older to gve him gums palate and teeth again.

God and certain medics failed us in both instances in equal measure.

I don't get the jehovas witness (forget name sorry) post that God is just letting the other omnipotents have a bash and screwing the world up before stepping in to show how to do it right.

thats akin to impassively standing by a river watching children drown before finally stepping in to save the last one = a psycopath with a late pang of conscience or an almighty pedant.

either way not for me.

jedster

Ever watched a relative die, been called to the hospital having got a phonecall that your pregnant wife was having stomach pains and been rushed away in an ambulance, called to the hospital because an infant child had stopped breathing, layed awake in the middle of the night wondering if that lump is cancer?

Some of the above, yes. It didn't encourage me to believe in God at all.

They say that there are no aethiests in a fox hole. I've never been in a fox hole so I don't know. But I have been in seriously perilous situation for several hours while mountaineering, I didn't feel inclined to pray.

I was brought up in a church going family. Even went to confirmation classes in my teens. I withdrew, on serious reflection I didn't believe in God. At all.

Incidently , my favourite evidence for the ansemce of God is the Asian Tsunami. You have to come up with some particularly sick and twisted logic to see that as the work of a benign and omnipotent God.

J

Cheers,
J

DonDaddyD

OK, I'm purposely not quoting everyone because I don't want to insult or cheapen their very personal experience of losing someone.

However, whether you believe in religion or not people get ill, some survive and some die. People die. It's a Universal constant. Therefore I can say that it is likely we have all lost someone and/or will all loose someone dear to our hearts. I didn't like it when it has happened to me, I won't be looking forward to it again. There is no point citing all the terrible times we've had in life. Shit happens, 'people grow, people move what remains is our memories of yesterday.' Personally I simply like to remember how they lived, what I learned and the joy/influence they had on my lives no matter how little.

I don't agree with those that pray to God that 'he' saves their loved one/s. An innocent prayer I'm sure. I'll leave that there. For me that isn't faith. It's almost dependence. I'm definitely going to leave that there.

I can understand, though don't agree with, people saying that if you live a good life you'll go to Heaven. Perhaps Heaven isn't real but the other Universal constant is that all energy is transferable and the energy produced by the human mind, our consciousness cannot be the only exception.

So yes in death I am saying we go somewhere, I'm not sure where. If I'm able to, I'll tell you when I get there.

Dondaddyd. 1.68

simple_salmon

DDD - what you've said doesn't cheapen anyone's experience or offend I don't think.

I only posted the first part of my post in response to the question asking if such experiences encouraged the belief in god; for me the aggressive manner of the death, if anything, made me less likely to believe.

Of course we all die - but for me it was the manner of my dad's death that was so painful and pointless.

I don't believe in god; I hate organised religion; I'd like to think there is an afterlife but it's so illogical I don't think there is.

Better to make the best of today than to think about what happens next.

il_principe

Bikerbaboon wrote:

joshtp/mbukman wrote:

Bikerbaboon wrote:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Epicurus

think that about covers it.

WRONG!
god is both willing and able, however, he resists, not forever, mind, but for a time, destroying all chalangers, without explanation might cause some questions to be raised among his followers, so he allows saten to rule for a while, see what he can do, and we can all see that he has made a hash of it, the world is in an awful state. but soon god will step in, say "ok, enough is enough, youv had a shot, and you mucked up, now its my turn...."
thats what i believe...

so hes not willing. I could do the washing up now but im just waiting till later to do it... Im not willing to do the washing up.

If you leave it for long enough then god will step in and don the marigolds...

tailwindhome

What intrigues me about this debate is the absolute certainty people with which some people hold their position either as believers or atheists.

The point of my post was to question this absolute certainity, was there ever a time in your life you, even for a moment cried out for help?

The point could be just as easily reversed and applied to those would claim to believe.

As I say, it's the absolute certainity which intrigues me.

Sewinman

Tiger Woods is a god to me now.

jimjamyaharr

WheezyMcChubby
i went to a c of e primery school, and so did alot of people i know. i was made aware of god at a very young age, everyone was thats why i think alot of people belive or dont

Wallace1492

WheezyMcChubby wrote:

What intrigues me about this debate is the absolute certainty people with which some people hold their position either as believers or atheists.

The point of my post was to question this absolute certainity, was there ever a time in your life you, even for a moment cried out for help?

The point could be just as easily reversed and applied to those would claim to believe.

As I say, it's the absolute certainity which intrigues me.

I am sure everyone cries out for help either physically or metaphorically sometime. Sometimes the help comes, sometimes it doesn't. That would in no way change my very hard held belief that there is nothing. I have had share of bad things, but at no point has that made me question anything, not even remotely.

Some people are capable of helping and making things better, some are capable of the most incredible feats of depravity and inhumanity it simply beggars belief.

Luck plays a big part in things too, but we all, and all those we love will die. Just a matter of when and how.

Merry Xmas!!

il_principe

jimjamyaharr wrote:

WheezyMcChubby
i went to a c of e primery school, and so did alot of people i know. i was brainwashed at a very young age, everyone was thats why i think alot of people belive or dont

Fixed that for you.

simple_salmon

I'm not a catholic but I spent one of my teaching practices in a catholic school. About 2 or 3 weeks from the end of the practice I was told I would be failed by the school for failing to attend a mass performed by some important guy from the church - I had thought that, not being catholic, it would be better for all concerned if I spent the time in the PE office quietly getting on with some paperwork.

Apparently not; despite all my good work, extra-curricular activities etc they would still prevent me from becoming a teacher because I didn't want to attend their ceremony.

Idiots; I have no respect for that sort of bullying.

Jay dubbleU

My personal theory is the Big Red Button theory of Creation

Big Red Button suspended in space

Along comes passing Supreme Being

Wonders (as you do) 'What happens if I press this?'

Sound of Big Bang caused by said Supreme Being pressing button and running away

jimjamyaharr

Il Principe
hahaha good fix
i dont belive in god tho

Buckled_Rims

Conversation in a pub last year with a friend of a friend:

Me: Do you believe in Jesus?
him: Yes.
Me: Do you worship Jesus's father ...some call him Jehovah.
Him: Yes.
Me: Do you believe in the teachings of Jesus and his father?
Him: Yes.
Me: Then why aren't you a Jew instead of a Christian?
Him: Er.....because....
Me: Jesus was a Jewish teacher. He baptizes Jews, not Christians. The bible clearly states not to worship other religions and you clearly do as you're not a Jew.
Him (puzzled)...did you see the Man U match last night.

Religion has caused more misery and deprivation then everything else put together. The whole bible premise is to have faith without proof.

We are Star Dust

Wallace1492

Buckled_Rims wrote:

Religion has caused more misery and deprivation then everything else put together. The whole bible premise is to have faith without proof.

We are Star Dust

Religion without proof, supeb isn't it. You must believe what someone wrote and said thousands of years ago and take it as, literally, "gospel".

All the associated things with religions are done to further the ambitions of the people that intrioduced them. For instance, catholic priests not being allowed to be married or have a family is so that their worldy possesions get left to the church, making it ever more powerful (historically).

All other thing like that are to further the religion, and were thought up long ago.

I really cannot understand how very intelligent people can believe in any religion. It beggars belief. Why do they for example have faith in a book that was written by dozens of people, over hundreds of years all with their own agenda. Much better sticking with Lord of the Rings...... at least it has a more realistic story.

King Donut

simple_salmon wrote:

... I'd like to think there is an afterlife but it's so illogical I don't think there is.

Holding a faith in the afterlife is a pragmatic position: If you have faith, then the worst that can happen is you are wrong but you'll never know anything about it; If you don't have faith then the worst that can happen is that you're condemned to Hell for eternity (or something similarly bad).

So while the existence of an afterlife might be illogical, it still makes logical sense to believe and have faith in a God that can give you a good afterlife.

King Donut

Wallace1492 wrote:

Buckled_Rims wrote:

Religion has caused more misery and deprivation then everything else put together. The whole bible premise is to have faith without proof.

We are Star Dust

Religion without proof, supeb isn't it. You must believe what someone wrote and said thousands of years ago and take it as, literally, "gospel".

All the associated things with religions are done to further the ambitions of the people that intrioduced them. For instance, catholic priests not being allowed to be married or have a family is so that their worldy possesions get left to the church, making it ever more powerful (historically).

All other thing like that are to further the religion, and were thought up long ago.

I really cannot understand how very intelligent people can believe in any religion. It beggars belief. Why do they for example have faith in a book that was written by dozens of people, over hundreds of years all with their own agenda. Much better sticking with Lord of the Rings...... at least it has a more realistic story.

But isn't that the whole point of faith? That you believe in something without proof? I guess a lot of people go on gut instinct.

It amazes me more that people are so quick to dismiss the existence of an all powerful nature of some sort without even bothering to really look in to it.

Wallace1492

King Donut wrote:

simple_salmon wrote:

... I'd like to think there is an afterlife but it's so illogical I don't think there is.

Holding a faith in the afterlife is a pragmatic position: If you have faith, then the worst that can happen is you are wrong but you'll never know anything about it; If you don't have faith then the worst that can happen is that you're condemned to Hell for eternity (or something similarly bad).

So while the existence of an afterlife might be illogical, it still makes logical sense to believe and have faith in a God that can give you a good afterlife.

Afterlife..... don't make me laugh... where is that then? Though some trapdoor to middle earth?

Obviously i come from a position of no afterlife. So, it makes no sense at all.
Have faith, then you have wasted your life thinking you are OK and you are not.
Heaven and Hell are made up by people, they do not exist!!

Not one iota of proof, not one shred at all. Global Warming - may or may not happen, plenty of evidence that can be read either way. God, afterlife, religion - evidence? - none, nada.

Its simple. Lights go out, walls come tumbling down.

Merry Xmas, and may your God go with you!!

il_principe

King Donut wrote:

It amazes me more that people are so quick to dismiss the existence of an all powerful nature of some sort without even bothering to really look in to it.

How the hell are you supposed to 'look into it?'

I might as well postulate that the universe was created from the effluent of an enormous (and ancient) space-worm, and then challenge you to look into that. There's no way of scientifically proving God does not exist, that's what makes the smuggest of religious folk so unbearable to talk to.

bails87

King Donut wrote:

simple_salmon wrote:

... I'd like to think there is an afterlife but it's so illogical I don't think there is.

Holding a faith in the afterlife is a pragmatic position: If you have faith, then the worst that can happen is you are wrong but you'll never know anything about it; If you don't have faith then the worst that can happen is that you're condemned to Hell for eternity (or something similarly bad).

So while the existence of an afterlife might be illogical, it still makes logical sense to believe and have faith in a God that can give you a good afterlife.

That's ridiculous.

"Hello Mr all powerful creator, yes, I did tell myself there must be an afterlife. I didn't really believe it though, and only said it so that I was covered in case my true opinion was wrong. But you wouldn't know that , so let me in please........omniscient? What does that mean? Hmmm, did it just get warmer......."

Oh, and by the way, you should give me a tenner a week. I control the afterlife, and if you don't then I'll send you somewhere horrible. If you do, the you'll get to hang out with Thor and Zeus and all the other cool gods! If of course I don't control the afterlife, then you haven't lost much have you? So it's logical to give me money. Cheque or PayPal will be fine!

Wallace1492

King Donut wrote:

But isn't that the whole point of faith? That you believe in something without proof? I guess a lot of people go on gut instinct.

It amazes me more that people are so quick to dismiss the existence of an all powerful nature of some sort without even bothering to really look in to it.

No, that is BLIND faith. Believeing without proof.
Faith itself is something different. I have faith that DDD will make an intersting post.
I have faith that Craig Levein will do well with Scotland

Normally having faith comes along with proof, you see from previous experience that it will happen, and believe it will in future cases.

Blind faith is completely different. It is illogical.

bails87

And what if you've been worshipping the wrong god all these years? That would be a right waste of time, and you'd still end up in 'hell'. Incidentally, it would be a hell you don't believe in, along with the Atheists and anyone else not of the 'chosen' religion. Except you'd have spent your life spouting more nonsense (and in the situation above it would be nonsense)

Who was it that said as civilisations evolve they worship fewer and fewer gods/being/things in the sky? We're just one away now.

bearfraser

Recently sold my soul to Santa!!!!!!!!

jedster

As I say, it's the absolute certainity which intrigues me.

Don't interpret my response that I don't believe in God as implying that I have "absolute certainty" that there is no God. I recognise that I can't know for sure whether there is a God. I just think based on evidence and logic that it is extremely unlikely. So I don't believe in one.

I don't believe in Father Christmas either but I can't prove that there is not a bloke in a red suit who is helped by elves to deliver presents to children. I am not however agnostic about Father Christmas.

Similarly do I believe that I will be hit by a meteorite when I leave my office this evening? No. Can I absolutely rule out the possiblity? No.

cjcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhTSfOZUNLo

Jay dubbleU

Of course the big problem is that if you admit to belonging to one religion then you are automatically condemned to various Hells by all the others :roll:

pllb

I voted no, but as I think someone else already mentioned there is a "god" in existence. In my house I have my daughters trained to greet any TV appearance by Martin O'Neil with excited cries of "look Mummy, god is on TV again!", this causes much annoyance to my long suffering catholic partner :twisted: Being a Wycombe Wanderers fan Martin is regarded as the one and only higher being for the genuine miracles he performed at our small, non-league club. Let me hear you praise the lord, come on Villa fans you know it is the truth!

rolf_f

lost_in_thought wrote:

I'm expecting all the climate change yes voters to go for Agnostic option 3.

Just in case.

:P

Naaah, the climate change yes voters will (or should) acknowledge that whilst the evidence is strongly in favour of man made causes, contrary evidence does exist. In the case of god, there is clearly no evidence whatsoever to its existence and therefore they'll go Option 2!

I'm pretty sure, given the evidence, that if there is a god, it wants me to not believe in it.

Wallace1492

pllb wrote:

I voted no, but as I think someone else already mentioned there is a "god" in existence. In my house I have my daughters trained to greet any TV appearance by Martin O'Neil with excited cries of "look Mummy, god is on TV again!", this causes much annoyance to my long suffering catholic partner :twisted: Being a Wycombe Wanderers fan Martin is regarded as the one and only higher being for the genuine miracles he performed at our small, non-league club. Let me hear you praise the lord, come on Villa fans you know it is the truth!

Being from a certain persuation in Glasgow, The Lord, Saint Martin "GoD" O'Neil gets my vote too!! Oh for one more Larsson goal on the 21st May 2003.....