How to get stronger over winter... I'm fit but weak!
Comments
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The basic premise for the article is..
Riders can usually improve their training and performance on the bike by including Core Stability exercises as part of their programme.
It goes on:
Core Stability is important in all cycling disciplines and at all levels. Coaches should therefore aim to understand how poor Core Stability can adversely affect their rider's performances.0 -
Pross wrote:Pross. Hysteria, really?
Well, when a certain poster resorts to name calling (and now suggesting that another poster's advice is just to make themselves money) it's getting pretty close!
You point out that you coach in athletics and seemingly specialising in explosive events such as sprints. In that situation I'm sure core strength helps more than in an endurance event. On that basis I'm sure it will help bursts of power such as sprints or short climbs within a longer race assuming you still have time to do the base bike work. I don't know anything about coaching but I suspect that track sprinters do a lot me gym work on their strength than the endurance riders do (judging by the relative physiques). What I do know is that I was advised by my chiropractor to do some bike riding to strengthen my 'core muscles' to support my back which suggested to me that riding in itself will help to strengthen your core :?
Fair point, it is getting a bit hysterical, maybe I was just a bit slow to see it. TBH I like the debate, I'm always willing to learn something new, I don't know everything :shock:
On the other point though, yes I do coach sprinters, but the endurance runners actually do just as much core training. I'm not saying that directly relates into cycling (I still maintain that this is more appropriate in cycling if there is a core weakness). But UKA advice is that core is often one of the first things to go in a marathon runner. In a runner you can see the change in posture when they fatigue is often in the core as they slouch over. It obviously isn't the primary limiter, but it plays a part and is trained seriously, but not at the expense of running. Even in sprinting we only do top up core sessions with strength and conditioning sessions probably once a week tops, but never at the expense of the track and plyometric work, only as a booster session to add to the weeks training. It keeps the mix and prevents overtraining.0 -
jacster wrote:The basic premise for the article is..
Riders can usually improve their training and performance on the bike by including Core Stability exercises as part of their programme.
It goes on:
Core Stability is important in all cycling disciplines and at all levels. Coaches should therefore aim to understand how poor Core Stability can adversely affect their rider's performances.
I know what the article says, but look at the bottom line "understand how POOR Core Stability can affect performance, not everyone will have poor core stability, or poor enough that it warrants extra core work being done, that can only be determined by a physio IMO.
If you get core pain, and the bike fit is correct, and it is a constant problem, see a physio, get some exercises, and resolve the issue. But I would suspect for the majority of riders wanting to get stronger on the bike, that to raise their FTP, you need to ride.
Your body will adapt to riding, and as mackdaddy has said there probably is no exercise that can simulate riding a bike, especially at a racing pace. I had issues with back pain the first time I did a 50 mile TT, the next time I raced at this distance, I suffered no back pain, my body adapted to the position I was racing in.
When I do my level 2 coaching with BC, I will ask about core work and see what they say.0 -
So jackster, how exactly is training the core muscles off the bike supposed to help performance for road cycling?jacster wrote:Have a full read of the text..
"an understanding of what is involved is essential, so that you can incorporate stability training into the overall programme"
How many professional riders do you think train their core muscles when not cycling?
It is not usual for "core strength" to be the limiting factor in road cycling, and in fact most cyclists could get by with considerably less core strength than they already possess whilst being fully capable of producing the same sustainable power output. In cases like this having a stronger core than they already have will be of no benefit whatsoever to them.
MurrX0 -
Murr X wrote:So jackster, how exactly is training the core muscles off the bike supposed to help performance for road cycling?
Have you read the article?
How many professional riders do you think train their core muscles when not cycling?
Most, if not all.
It is not usual for "core strength" to be the limiting factor in road cycling, and in fact most cyclists could get by with considerably less core strength than they already possess whilst being fully capable of producing the same sustainable power output. In cases like this having a stronger core than they already have will be of no benefit whatsoever to them.
And this is based on?0 -
SBezza wrote:I have asked for the exact exercises to do to replicate an hour at racing pace, but no-one has done. I presume that there is no-one out there that actually knows of an exercise that will simulate that.
I've heard of an EXACT set of exercises that can replicate an hour at racing pace.
This can be done indoors also.
You will need either a stationary bike - or a bike set up on a turbo trainer.
Step 1: lift one leg over top tube of bike
Step 2: sit down on saddle
Step 3: peddle as hard as you can for 1 minute
Step 4: repeat 59 times
I've been told this replicates racing for one hour.
<tongue planted firmly in cheek>0 -
SBezza wrote:
I know what the article says, but look at the bottom line "understand how POOR Core Stability can affect performance, not everyone will have poor core stability, or poor enough that it warrants extra core work being done, that can only be determined by a physio IMO.
If you get core pain, and the bike fit is correct, and it is a constant problem, see a physio, get some exercises, and resolve the issue. But I would suspect for the majority of riders wanting to get stronger on the bike, that to raise their FTP, you need to ride.
Do you honestly think the majority of posters on this site have sound core stability?
And do you think that they can determine whether they are overusing their hip flexors, abdominals or lower-back muscles to maintain form and position? Or whether they are changing their trunk position in order to feel comfortable when cycling? Or using their elbows and knees inappropriately?
I'm not suggesting we all make up our own core workouts. But, with advice, I think we could ALL improve our core stability/strength, which is something British Cycling has identified is helpful to improving performance.
Certainly, with the results being achieved by BC, I would be inclined to listen.
And I would also be inclined to listen to the many top riders who speak highly of core training. Fabian Cancellera is one, I believe, who THINKS it has helped him. For some, I know, that belief is not enough.0 -
Pokerface wrote:SBezza wrote:I have asked for the exact exercises to do to replicate an hour at racing pace, but no-one has done. I presume that there is no-one out there that actually knows of an exercise that will simulate that.
I've heard of an EXACT set of exercises that can replicate an hour at racing pace.
This can be done indoors also.
You will need either a stationary bike - or a bike set up on a turbo trainer.
Step 1: lift one leg over top tube of bike
Step 2: sit down on saddle
Step 3: peddle as hard as you can for 1 minute
Step 4: repeat 59 times
I've been told this replicates racing for one hour.
<tongue planted firmly in cheek>
LOL, thats where I have been going wrong, I always forget the repeat 59 times part. Always thought my turbo sessions were a bit too easy.0 -
SBezza wrote:Pokerface wrote:SBezza wrote:I have asked for the exact exercises to do to replicate an hour at racing pace, but no-one has done. I presume that there is no-one out there that actually knows of an exercise that will simulate that.
I've heard of an EXACT set of exercises that can replicate an hour at racing pace.
This can be done indoors also.
You will need either a stationary bike - or a bike set up on a turbo trainer.
Step 1: lift one leg over top tube of bike
Step 2: sit down on saddle
Step 3: peddle as hard as you can for 1 minute
Step 4: repeat 59 times
I've been told this replicates racing for one hour.
<tongue planted firmly in cheek>
LOL, thats where I have been going wrong, I always forget the repeat 59 times part. Always thought my turbo sessions were a bit too easy.
Even though it was a joke - is there not a lot of truth in what I said? If you train for an hour at race pace on a turbo - is that not the same as racing for an hour?0 -
Jacster
I would not just do any general work to improve my performance, either on the bike or off it. If I had a persistent issue, I would see a physio, who would direct me to appropriate exercises. I do specific training to achieve my goals.
Pro's have experts in health and wellbeing coaching them on the exact stuff to do. I do not believe just general core work will be of much help, no matter what a general report on the BC website says.
There is nothing in that report that says what sort of core work to do, it says get specialist appraisals to core stability. Like Alex has said, if you can stand up and balance you have enough core stability to ride a bike. If you have plenty of time to do core work, then fine, but to say everyone should do it, and if you don't you will get problems is misleading.0 -
Pokerface wrote:SBezza wrote:Pokerface wrote:SBezza wrote:I have asked for the exact exercises to do to replicate an hour at racing pace, but no-one has done. I presume that there is no-one out there that actually knows of an exercise that will simulate that.
I've heard of an EXACT set of exercises that can replicate an hour at racing pace.
This can be done indoors also.
You will need either a stationary bike - or a bike set up on a turbo trainer.
Step 1: lift one leg over top tube of bike
Step 2: sit down on saddle
Step 3: peddle as hard as you can for 1 minute
Step 4: repeat 59 times
I've been told this replicates racing for one hour.
<tongue planted firmly in cheek>
LOL, thats where I have been going wrong, I always forget the repeat 59 times part. Always thought my turbo sessions were a bit too easy.
Even though it was a joke - is there not a lot of truth in what I said? If you train for an hour at race pace on a turbo - is that not the same as racing for an hour?
No not really, on the road, or in my case I had back pain in a cyclo cross race. The bike is constantly moving and so are you. If I got back pain on the turbo, I would see a physio, as you are pretty static.
You just seem to go harder in an actual race.0 -
SBezza wrote:Pokerface wrote:Even though it was a joke - is there not a lot of truth in what I said? If you train for an hour at race pace on a turbo - is that not the same as racing for an hour?
No not really, on the road, or in my case I had back pain in a cyclo cross race. The bike is constantly moving and so are you. If I got back pain on the turbo, I would see a physio, as you are pretty static.
You just seem to go harder in an actual race.
The key word there being 'seem'. If I can quantify my workout (for instance with my powertap) and show that I have used the same wattage in my hour-long workout as I would in an actual race, then it stands to reason that the efforts are the same?
I wasn't talking about pains, etc - I was talking about training and the effort required to do an hour long road race.
I still say you can simulate the effort in training with the correct motivation.0 -
SBezza wrote:Jacster
I would not just do any general work to improve my performance, either on the bike or off it. If I had a persistent issue, I would see a physio, who would direct me to appropriate exercises. I do specific training to achieve my goals.
Pro's have experts in health and wellbeing coaching them on the exact stuff to do. I do not believe just general core work will be of much help, no matter what a general report on the BC website says.
There is nothing in that report that says what sort of core work to do, it says get specialist appraisals to core stability. Like Alex has said, if you can stand up and balance you have enough core stability to ride a bike. If you have plenty of time to do core work, then fine, but to say everyone should do it, and if you don't you will get problems is misleading.
Like I say, with advice, we could all build a stronger more stable core.
The plaster on afterwards argument is, I believe, rather old school.
But we all have our own ideas.0 -
Jacster, I can assure that it is absolutely not the case that most professional cyclists train their core muscles. Absolutely not the case at all.jacster wrote:
How many professional riders do you think train their core muscles when not cycling?
Most, if not all.
Based on 18+ years of training and racing with a good understanding of exercise physiology (from bodybuilding to marathon running) in particular what is relevant to road cycling and have had solid experience of power training for many years - well before it was the next big thing.jacster wrote:It is not usual for "core strength" to be the limiting factor in road cycling, and in fact most cyclists could get by with considerably less core strength than they already possess whilst being fully capable of producing the same sustainable power output. In cases like this having a stronger core than they already have will be of no benefit whatsoever to them.
And this is based on?
I appreciate that you are saying what you believe is correct, but I do firmly do disagree that for most people core training is beneficial to what we have been discussing. Saying that core training is unlikely to be much of a hinderance either. There are many coaches out there who advocate "core training" for every road cyclist but then there are many coaches who do not know any better. I do not believe that Alex Simmons is one who gives bad advice at all and it is a privilege to have him here sharing his knowledge.
Murr X0 -
Metabolically yes (and the basic training impact will be the same), however there will be neuromuscular differences which can be assessed via a Quadrant Analysis of the pedal forces and pedal speed. From the perspective of improving power at threshold, then you are getting an equivalent workout.Pokerface wrote:The key word there being 'seem'. If I can quantify my workout (for instance with my powertap) and show that I have used the same wattage in my hour-long workout as I would in an actual race, then it stands to reason that the efforts are the same?0 -
If you improve your reading comprehension you might notice from my previous posts that:jacster wrote:The thing is Alex, you don't ignore your core, do you?
You're well aware of the need to have a strong core..
Not only do you develop it on the bike, but you also do yoga.
You are a contradiction in terms.
Where was the substantive evidence you REQUIRE to undertake yoga to improve your performance?
- I never claimed to have undertaken yoga in an effort to improve my cycling performance, so suggesting I did is a false assertion on your part, and
- I also pointed out that my cycling performance actually improved once I ceased doing yoga and focussed that time on the bike training
I am not your friend. That is reserved for people I care about.jacster wrote:[You, my friend,0 -
mackdaddy wrote:Lee (real name for Alex )
I've no problems with avatars, that's a personal choice. Just when ad hominems are involved.0 -
AlexSimmons,
Did you read the article for British coaches?
It seems that even your own countrymen believe some form of off-bike core work is beneficial to cyclists..
http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/articl ... bing--10340 -
jacster wrote:AlexSimmons,
Did you read the article for British coaches?
It seems that even your own countrymen believe some form of off-bike core work is beneficial to cyclists..
http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/articl ... bing--1034
It seems to me (from personal experience - and my time working at British Cycling WITH the coaches) and from reading that article - that you need SOME core strength. Duh. No kidding.
Yes, you should be able to do 50 sit ups and some press ups, etc.
But to imply that you need to incorporate core strength into your workouts all year long or make it a focus at all - once you have achieved a basic level of fitness - is a waste of valuable training time.
It doesn't take a lot of EXTRA core strength to ride a bike and ride a bike well.
So what are we arguing about?0 -
Actually Pokerface you're right.
Just looking back over the debate I've found this from Alexsimmons:
Core work is certainly not detrimental to ECP and there are many good reasons to do such work.
He agrees!0 -
Pokerface wrote:SBezza wrote:I have asked for the exact exercises to do to replicate an hour at racing pace, but no-one has done. I presume that there is no-one out there that actually knows of an exercise that will simulate that.
I've heard of an EXACT set of exercises that can replicate an hour at racing pace.
This can be done indoors also.
You will need either a stationary bike - or a bike set up on a turbo trainer.
Step 1: lift one leg over top tube of bike
Step 2: sit down on saddle
Step 3: peddle as hard as you can for 1 minute
Step 4: repeat 59 times
I've been told this replicates racing for one hour.
<tongue planted firmly in cheek>
You missed out the bit where sometimes you have to ride harder than possible "A cyclist has nothing to lose but his chain"
PTP Runner Up 20150 -
ShockedSoShocked wrote:You missed out the bit where sometimes you have to ride harder than possible
That, by definition, is impossible. :shock:0 -
Pokerface wrote:ShockedSoShocked wrote:You missed out the bit where sometimes you have to ride harder than possible
That, by definition, is impossible. :shock:
I think that must be where I'm going wrong in races! "A cyclist has nothing to lose but his chain"
PTP Runner Up 20150 -
ShockedSoShocked wrote:Pokerface wrote:ShockedSoShocked wrote:You missed out the bit where sometimes you have to ride harder than possible
That, by definition, is impossible. :shock:
I think that must be where I'm going wrong in races!
The part where you sign on and start the race.... THAT'S where I go wrong!0 -
I raced at a reasonably high level for some time and still know several pros/ex pros in Europe who like myself never did any "core training".jacster wrote:Murr X wrote:
Jacster, I can assure that it is absolutely not the case that most professional cyclists train their core muscles. Absolutely not the case at all.
Where's your insight coming from...
Believe me I do know very well how to train and like I explained above do have many years experience training with power, of course I don't know everything by any means but then nobody does. One thing I do know is that most professional cyclists will not benefit from the type of training you are recommending.
I would love to hear how you are so sure that most professional road cyclists train their core muscles? Perhaps you know something I don't?
Really though I think I am going to get nowhere here.
Thanks
Murr X0 -
Murr X,
What you say is interesting.
My knowledge of what the pros do comes from reading/speaking to pros.
Look at some of the big names in the TDF..
Lance Armstrong - we all know he does weights and core work.
Cavendish and Colombia - They have a dedicated 'core' specialist, Pedro Gonzales, who works with every rider;
Bradley Wiggins. He trains his core religiously. His advice to wannabes:
"In the gym you should focus on strengthening your core for 30 minutes each day, mixing up Pilates and yoga moves and using exercise balls. You need to focus on working muscles at their extremes, under tension, for as long as possible. Without a solid core you can't transfer power efficiently, and you'll be left with dust in your eyes, however strong your legs are."
Frank and Andy Schleck lift weights and do other core work.
Fabian Cancellara has said increased flexibility and core strength has helped his positioning on the bike.
A quick call to most, if not all top pro teams will reveal they have a dedicated strength and conditioning coach and/or core specialist.0 -
You need a BOSU Ball, like a Swiss ball but has a flat bottom. You can do 1 leg/2 leg balances, jumps on/offover, core work, upper body stability if you use light weights.
I got 3 for about £27 each on ebay. They have some bungees attached too, but I don't use them generally.
Mainly you'll use your own body weight, so stability/strength is "specific" and bulk won't be too much of an issue if you're Ectomorphic, ie you'll tend to be lean/thin etc.
They take up no space, are easy to store and WORK, having used one to get over a torn Adductor muscle for 4 months. With stretching as well, my session takes around 45mins.
There's some stuff on You Tube, but this is extreme in some cases. Pilates and easy circuit type drills can be done quite safely, and they do get great results if you put the effort in!0 -
A lot of what pros 'say' is for the benefit of some magazine article. Usually on core training. I wouldn't be surprised if they were even spoon-fed the words for the quote.
And I would hazard to guess that they do NOT train their core all year round. But they WILL do some gym work over the winter. The rest of the year they are on their bikes.
And riding them.
But maybe I'm wrong.0
