How to get stronger over winter... I'm fit but weak!
Comments
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Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
An ad hominem is not going to help your argument. What on earth has my nationality got to do with an inspection of the (lack of) evidence?jacster wrote:If you can't find any evidence you shouldn't try and coach folk.
Typical flamin' arrogant Aussie
You're the one making the claims, so back it up with some evidence. An inability to do so, yet persist with claims regardless to me suggests arrogance.
Given I use science and evidence based principles to coach people (as well as professionalism), and have coached people to results including world & national championships and a world record, then you're right, maybe I should stop coaching :roll:
My point is you dismiss core work..but give no real reasons why?
What scientific and evidence work have you done on the effectiveness of an off-bike core regime? What regimes have you tried? What was your experience?
Your main advice is "ride more". While riding more is likely to reap rewards..surely what you do is more important than simply "riding more".
Infact riding more with no particular plan is likely to lead to wasted training hours, exhaustion, overuse of certain muscle groups, injuries etc.0 -
I'm not dismissing doing core work.jacster wrote:My point is you dismiss core work..but give no real reasons why?
What scientific and evidence work have you done on the effectiveness of an off-bike core regime? What regimes have you tried? What was your experience?
I get plenty of core work necessary to ride a bike powerfully, by riding a bike powerfully.
2 years ago when I came out of hospital after a 4 month "stay" and minus a leg, then spent another 14 months completely sedentary while I healed and then began to learn to stand and ultimately walk again with a prosthetic, eventually I was able to get on a bike on an indoor trainer. I managed 100W for about 10-minutes.
My core (along with much of my body) was exceptionally weakened by my lengthy forced sedentary period, much of it confined to bed or seated. I can recall being re-admitted to hospital due to crippling lower back spasms. No fun being unable to move, alone in your home and calling an ambulance to come and get you.
But I persisted with my bike riding.
About 5 weeks ago I set an all time PB in a Maximal Aerobic Power test (cycling ramp test to exhaustion) and last week I completed Levi's 103 mile Granfondo in California with ~ 10,000 feet of climbing up some pretty nasty 10% grades. Took me a fraction over 6 hours. I won the Oceania paracycling road race and TT championships in May and took silver in same two events at my country's national championships.
That's my experience with how the core adapts to cycling more powerfully.
What's yours?0 -
That is the classic "straw man argument" - a logical fallacy and pretty weak statement.jacster wrote:Your main advice is "ride more". While riding more is likely to reap rewards..surely what you do is more important than simply "riding more".
Infact riding more with no particular plan is likely to lead to wasted training hours, exhaustion, overuse of certain muscle groups, injuries etc.
Exactly where have I said "ride more"? - and especially in such a manner to imply the ridiculous things you are suggesting?0 -
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
I'm not dismissing doing core work.jacster wrote:My point is you dismiss core work..but give no real reasons why?
What scientific and evidence work have you done on the effectiveness of an off-bike core regime? What regimes have you tried? What was your experience?
I get plenty of core work necessary to ride a bike powerfully, by riding a bike powerfully.
2 years ago when I came out of hospital after a 4 month "stay" and minus a leg, then spent another 14 months completely sedentary while I healed and then began to learn to stand and ultimately walk again with a prosthetic, eventually I was able to get on a bike on an indoor trainer. I managed 100W for about 10-minutes.
My core (along with much of my body) was exceptionally weakened by my lengthy forced sedentary period, much of it confined to bed or seated. I can recall being re-admitted to hospital due to crippling lower back spasms. No fun being unable to move, alone in your home and calling an ambulance to come and get you.
But I persisted with my bike riding.
About 5 weeks ago I set an all time PB in a Maximal Aerobic Power test (cycling ramp test to exhaustion) and last week I completed Levi's 103 mile Granfondo in California with ~ 10,000 feet of climbing up some pretty nasty 10% grades. Took me a fraction over 6 hours. I won the Oceania paracycling road race and TT championships in May and took silver in same two events at my country's national championships.
That's my experience with how the core adapts to cycling more powerfully.
What's yours?
Right, so you have no personal experience of off-bike core work?0 -
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
That is the classic "straw man argument" - a logical fallacy and pretty weak statement.jacster wrote:Your main advice is "ride more". While riding more is likely to reap rewards..surely what you do is more important than simply "riding more".
Infact riding more with no particular plan is likely to lead to wasted training hours, exhaustion, overuse of certain muscle groups, injuries etc.
Exactly where have I said "ride more"? - and especially in such a manner to imply the ridiculous things you are suggesting?
Take a look at the other thread you've been commenting on re: gym work.
I quote you: "Ride more" was your response to the OP's questions.
Surely a coach of such distinction has sounder advice than that?
Seeing as you provide no evidence of you having undertaken off-bike core or gym work, it's ridiculous to dismiss it.
The old "I can find no evidence to say it works" is ridiculous if you have never tried it.0 -
Quick Question as your throwing the word Core about a lot, what do you class as your "Core"?
what core training would help on a bike? most gym activities and physical activities are not directly transferable... IMO the core is nothing to do with the stereotypical abdominal muscles you see on the front of the body.
I do a lot of gym training and can honestly say my core is one of the strongest around, it helps with a hell of a lot of things, cycling not so much.... unless your doing BMX or stuff that requires sharp turns and a lot of body twisting.FCN: 5/6 Fixed Gear (quite rapid) in normal clothes and clips
Cannondale CAAD9 / Mongoose Maurice (heavily modified)0 -
For what its worth I religiously did core specific circuit sessions with the tri club twice a week for a year and got a bit more definition on my torso and arms. This last season I didnt bother with any core exercises at all and spent the time saved riding more. I personally would not bother with core work again and I agree with Alex that a normal person gets all the training they need from the bike.0
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Given the option of doing gym training or riding more, for someone that wants to ride the length of a country as that OP does, then yes, it would be wise to ride more than doing gym exercises. Or use the bike in the gym.jacster wrote:Take a look at the other thread you've been commenting on re: gym work.
I quote you: "Ride more" was your response to the OP's questions.
Surely a coach of such distinction has sounder advice than that?
If he wants something a bit more specific, then I'd be happy to help out. My point was that replacing valuable on-bike training time with something unspecific and unlikely to help improve on-bike fitness for such a challenge would be sub-optimal.
Who said I haven't tried it? I have many years of doing yoga (a relatively strenuous form with significant emphasis on core) but my on-bike performances were/are far better when my time is fundamentally spent on specific bike training.jacster wrote:Seeing as you provide no evidence of you having undertaken off-bike core or gym work, it's ridiculous to dismiss it.
The old "I can find no evidence to say it works" is ridiculous if you have never tried it.
If you've got spare time and want to do other forms of exercise, fine by me. There is nothing wrong with it. Just don't go about claiming it does something magical, when riding a bike is the best training for riding a bike.
Core work is certainly not detrimental to ECP (unless it is preventing you from getting an optimal training load on the bike) and there are many good reasons to do such work. Just a claim that it improves ECP is not one of them. Strength work however can be detrimental to ECP, even if you do enough on bike work.
Indeed, going back to my original statement (was it this thread?), sprints, standing starts, short hard hill efforts, along with hills and dedicated interval work are the best ways to work on the actual core muscles that you need in cycling (as well as simply getting sufficient on bike time). The muscles will respond and adapt to the loads applied (which if done smartly will be in a progressive overload manner such that relevant adaptations continue to occur).
As always, the specificity principle applies.0 -
All seems to be getting a bit personal and emotional here.
I suggested core work originally because the OP suggested 'weakenesses'. I agree with Alex that actual bike specific strength work is better done on the bike than in the gym where at all possible.
I suggest core work because I have found it as a weakness myself in cycling and in many athletes I have worked with (although I have admitted many times this is outside cycling).
For me, it is the limiting factor. My lower back slows me down long before my aerobic or leg strength does. In this instance, specific core training helps me a lot more than only riding the bike.
I think I said in another thread, the problem is, whether something is backed by supporting evidence or not, many things in sports coaching are difficult to prove totally. Different athletes respond to different inputs. Some athletes pretty much respond to anything and some just don't fit the models.
The long and short of it is, riding a bike is the best form of training you can do for riding a bike, but if you have a specific weakness, then try something to supplement your training and see how it works out.
To be honest guys, getting all antsy with each other doesn't really help the OP :?0 -
I only see one person getting 'antsy' and it isn't Alex.0
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mackdaddy wrote:All seems to be getting a bit personal and emotional here.
I suggested core work originally because the OP suggested 'weakenesses'. I agree with Alex that actual bike specific strength work is better done on the bike than in the gym where at all possible.
I suggest core work because I have found it as a weakness myself in cycling and in many athletes I have worked with (although I have admitted many times this is outside cycling).
For me, it is the limiting factor. My lower back slows me down long before my aerobic or leg strength does. In this instance, specific core training helps me a lot more than only riding the bike.
I think I said in another thread, the problem is, whether something is backed by supporting evidence or not, many things in sports coaching are difficult to prove totally. Different athletes respond to different inputs. Some athletes pretty much respond to anything and some just don't fit the models.
The long and short of it is, riding a bike is the best form of training you can do for riding a bike, but if you have a specific weakness, then try something to supplement your training and see how it works out.
To be honest guys, getting all antsy with each other doesn't really help the OP :?
I agree with what you are saying, however I would say core work is necessary whatever your perceived limiters or lack of training time.
For a start riding a bike can lead to a tight back, poor posture and rounded shoulders.
An effective core strengthening workout to help balance your body following a bike session doesn't take long.
One which works the deep abdominal muscles, along with the hips, glutes and shoulders should not take more than 15-20 minutes.
And, like you say, it is my back and mid-section which screams at me before my legs. You can have all the leg strength in the world but if your core packs in you cannot use that leg strength as efficiently as you could.
Particularly during winter, when on-bike time might be limited, developing a stronger core will not adversely affect your riding.
Riding more, with little or no direction and no corrective exercise, will, in my opinion, do more damage than good.0 -
Sounds like you have a poor bike fit to me.0
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:roll:0
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An interesting article from the Washington Post...
"We hear a lot from cyclists who wonder why they experience pain--typically in their knees and/or back--during long bike rides. For some, the answer is simple: "Sit on the seat," we say, "not the handlebars."
For others, the solution might require a little more work. Assuming you've already confirmed that your bike fits properly (poor bike fit can contribute to back and knee pain, as we've discussed in the May 24 column, "Before Riding, Match Your Bike to Your Body"), you might take a lesson from a study presented at the American College of Sports Medicine's annual conference in early June. That research shows that core strength--that is, strength of the abdominal, oblique and back muscles--is key for cyclists who want to pedal strong for long distances.
The study examined 15 competitive cyclists ages 23 to 45 who completed a series of cycling exercises at a University of Pittsburgh research facility, then returned a week later for a regimen of core-fatiguing exercises followed by another cycling workout. The results: Core fatigue resulted in altered cycling mechanics -- namely, adjustments in knee and ankle position -- as the participants tried to maintain pedal force.
Those adjustments, which recreational and competitive cyclists make automatically in response to core fatigue, could be at the root of many riders' complaints, said John Abt, the study's lead researcher and a postdoctoral fellow at the University of Pittsburgh's Center for Sports Medicine. "If you are continually fatigued or weak, you are setting yourself up for the potential for injury."
Abt said his findings apply to recreational cyclists--especially weekend warriors, "people who ride 20 or 30 minutes on an exercise cycle a couple days a week [and] then go out on a Saturday and try to go for four hours with their friends."
The core is the powerhouse for all of your extremities, Abt explained, and cyclists with weak or tired cores tend to "flap their legs," introducing a sideways, semicircular motion instead of the more efficient up-and-down motion. "This results in abnormal tracking of the patella on the femur," Abt said. Over time, that could cause knee injury.
Back pain occurs usually after significant distance -- precisely how long depends on the rider's conditioning -- when the core is too exhausted to power the legs and keep the rest of the body in proper alignment.
"If you hit 25 miles and your back really starts to hurt, you can move around in the saddle or climb out of it, but basically you are shot" in terms of finishing the ride pain-free, Abt said.
How to strengthen your core? Alas, this will sound familiar: crunches, back extensions (essentially upside-down sit-ups using gym gear, where you bend forward from the waist and lift your torso back up using your lower back muscles), lat pull-downs and other core builders we routinely prescribe. For the thoroughly deconditioned, Abt recommends starting with one to two sets (10 each) of basic crunches a few times a week combined with simple back exercises twice a week.
For people who have established some core power, Abt recommends two to three weekly workouts using a stability ball. The inflated spheres "help recruit other muscles" because using the ball requires an element of balance. Circuit training also employs core muscles; two to three circuit sessions a week should be sufficient to keep most recreational cyclists fit for riding"
Joe Friel's Cyclist's Training Bible is also worth a read.0 -
So:
1. Pre-fatiguing riders and wondering why they are tired when you put them on a bike, and
2. Ride 1-2 x 20-30-min mid week and go out for 4 hours on the weekend and wonder why it hurts.
is evidence that simply training properly on a bike isn't sufficient?
If you're gunna be dumb about your training, then what do you expect?
Who's rolling their eyes again?0 -
Let me make one thing clear:
I am not against doing core work.
I am not against doing weights/strength work. Or stretching, or running, or lots of other things.
They have many benefits.
It's just the claims they improve sustainable aerobic power are not justified based on the evidence (or lack of).
Indeed I suggest the whole thing is back asswards. Specific on bike work designed to raise sustainable aerobic power (FTP, MAP etc) improves the core strength needed to ride a bike fast(er) and far(ther).0 -
So you can see no direct correlation between improving core strength to improving the length of time you can sustain a power output?0
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Jacster it seems that you have a problem If you are ending a ride and "it is my back and mid-section which screams at me before my legs" then you have an underlying issue that requires core work to patch you up/ muscle balance blah blah. You are complaining about back problems and so are loving your core work, good for you.
I don't suffer from back pains so do not share your passion for core work and would not recommend core work unless an individual’s body required it. For you your core is a limiting factor for me it is not.
We are all built differently and all have a varied capacity for what strain we can cope with so if you need core go for it if you don't, don't bother. But to the OP if you want to get faster then train on the bike. Unless I have missed somthing the OP is not bitching about back pains0 -
Alex
To be honest, I expect better from you than your most recent posts on this thread. "Sounds like you have a poor bike fit to me." is an over-simplifed diagnosis without taking into account either of what I or jacster said. It's dismissve and beneath you.
Secondly, I know you know how to read into a peice of research and I'm not sure if you're suggesting that I'm dumb about my training, jacster is dumb about his (or both of us) or a specific piece of research to identify the effect of core fatigue on cycling performance is classed as dumb training.
Hopefully the OP will get something out of the early posts in this thread, if not I'd suggest he looks elsewhere for advice if all we're going to do is score points off each other and degenerate into schoolyard stuff.0 -
I'm not suggesting anyone here is dumb.mackdaddy wrote:Alex
To be honest, I expect better from you than your most recent posts on this thread. "Sounds like you have a poor bike fit to me." is an over-simplifed diagnosis without taking into account either of what I or jacster said. It's dismissve and beneath you.
Secondly, I know you know how to read into a peice of research and I'm not sure if you're suggesting that I'm dumb about my training, jacster is dumb about his (or both of us) or a specific piece of research to identify the effect of core fatigue on cycling performance is classed as dumb training.
Hopefully the OP will get something out of the early posts in this thread, if not I'd suggest he looks elsewhere for advice if all we're going to do is score points off each other and degenerate into schoolyard stuff.
But if anyone goes out and expects to smack it for 4 hours when they don't do the training necessary to be able to do this without hurting themselves (as that study seemed to imply), then that's dumb.
Also, if pain is arising from riding a bike, then bike fit may well be as issue and should not be dismissed either. In fact bike fit has a direct relationship to sustainable aerobic power, unlike core strength (per se). You are correct in that it appeared an "over simplified diagnosis" on my part, neverthess, it is a very common problem with people that try to ride a bike position they are not ready or suited for (until they have done sufficient training) and experience pain in back, neck, legs, arms, wrists, shoulders etc.0 -
Not really. There really isn't much core strength needed. If you can stand up and walk around for longer than you intend to ride, then your core is strong enough to last on a bike. Unless bike fit is poor.jacster wrote:So you can see no direct correlation between improving core strength to improving the length of time you can sustain a power output?
But we are not talking about untrained individuals when just about any exercise will help.0 -
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:[ If you can stand up and walk around for longer than you intend to ride, then your core is strong enough to last on a bike. Unless bike fit is poor.
Is this just guesswork or is there any scientific evidence to back up what you are saying here? Seeing as you rely on scientific studies..0 -
I rode an early sportive with the OP, and he was quite strong then. I have done no core work or gym work since March this year, and I have got faster and faster as the year has progressed.
The only thing I have done is intervals sessions on the turbo to increase my power output, and riding my bike more, what my power is I don't know, but going by TT times power must have gone up.
Now none of this was done with any gym work at all. I don't really know if gym work would help anyone that doesn't have underlying issues, but if you can ride your bike for 4 hours without back pain I am with Alex that no core work would be required.
I also can relate to his reasoning that the core will get strong enough from just riding the bike. I did a 50 mile TT early in the year, the first time I had done more than 1 hour in a lo pro position, and it hurt like hell at about 35 miles. I subsequently did a 100 mile TT with no back pain, and then a 12 hour TT again only getting pain after about 7 hours (but that was to be expected). Later 50 mile TT's were fine, so obviously my core and back had got used to a position by just riding.
If you have imbalance issues, then an osteopath, or sports therapist should be the first port of call to see what is wrong, rather than doing core work, which may or may not actually help.0 -
It's worth saying that any repetitive motion will eventually neglect the muscles that are not directly involved.
Those muscles will not develop in harmony which will lead to an imbalance down the road, as another poster pointed out earlier.0 -
jacster wrote:It's worth saying that any repetitive motion will eventually neglect the muscles that are not directly involved.
Those muscles will not develop in harmony which will lead to an imbalance down the road, as another poster pointed out earlier.
Cross training might help other muscles, but I doubt it will help with on bike performance. The OP said he wanted to get stronger on the bike, unless he has specific imbalance issues (again these need to be determined by a osteopath, or sports therapist), then the best way will be to ride the bike in a structured manner and increasing his FTP. This could mean on bike strength work, LT interval sessions and the like.
I had an imbalance issue, which was sorted out by my pyshio, but it still didn't involve going to a gym or doing any specific core work.0 -
SBezza wrote:
Cross training might help other muscles, but I doubt it will help with on bike performance. The OP said he wanted to get stronger on the bike, unless he has specific imbalance issues (again these need to be determined by a osteopath, or sports therapist), then the best way will be to ride the bike in a structured manner and increasing his FTP. This could mean on bike strength work, LT interval sessions and the like.
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My question would be: Why would you not want to do something which is likely to help prevent imbalances?
IMO an imbalance can affect bike performance. Depending on the nature of the imbalance it is likely you will have to take time out to get it rectified. Lost training time can eventually lead to a loss of fitness, which then has to be recovered before you can start gaining fitness again.
So why not include a core strengthening regime into your programme? As mentioned before it takes a matter of minutes.0 -
jacster wrote:So why not include a core strengthening regime into your programme? As mentioned before it takes a matter of minutes.
I don't need core work, my core is perfectly fine
., and to be honest most peoples core is probably perfectly fine as well. My legs hurt after hard riding not my core.
Now if you have an issue with back pain, go and see a pyhsio, he will pinpoint what the issue is ( and it could be related to bike fit), and suggest suitable exercises to rectify the issue.
I personally had a knee issue, which was more of an overuse injury (not surprising cycling hard for 12 hours ), this was sorted out with a few exercises. I was still training and racing whilst this was ongoing however. 0 -
Each to their own.
I just hope you don't suffer problems in the future.0 -
It's great to have deep pockets.
I find prevention better than cure, which I'm sure many physios would attest to. (And certainly those I've dealt with have.)0
