How to get stronger over winter... I'm fit but weak!

Simon Notley

This year has been mixed for me. My training has principally been aimed at increasing my sustainable speed for mid to long rides. As such, my training has consisted mostly of intervals at just below TT pace (generally in 3x15min sessions), tempo rides of around 1-1.5 hours and longer rides 3-5 hours. I also occasionally mixed in some 6x4min sessions at above TT pace, bug probably didn't do as much of these as I should.

The net result of this is that I have lost about 4kg (of upper body muscle which I had put on by doing other sports in the winter). Given that I'm now only 63kg and 5'10" I'm not sure this was a good thing - next year I'll be making sure I eat better post-training.

However, I did see some good gains. I finished in the top 10 of a few long sportives and saw small improvements in my time trialling. On the downside, I feel that I have lost explosive power and strength which is a serious disadvantage on the short-sharp hills which feature in road-racing (or indeed in a sprint).

If I was racing in the Alps, perhaps my current build and fitness would be ideal, but since I'm not, I think I need to look at doing a reverse-Wiggo and putting on some extra muscle. I'm going to be doing weights in the gym (I do this every winter for general health, not specifically for cycling) but I don't necessarily expect this to build the right kind of muscle for cycling. So, is there any particular approach to weight training, or any other kind of training, that I can do over winter to improve my short to medium term power output on the bike?

I'm not expecting a magic solution, just interested in sharing ideas.

Edwin

Harder, shorter intervals? You probably don't need any more muscle. I'm the same height and would love to get down to that weight. It's a bit of a myth that more muscle = more power.

Gav888

Edwin wrote:

It's a bit of a myth that more muscle = more power.

more muscle = more weight

Bhima

Riding in big gears is essentially a weight-training exercise in disguise, but it's bike-specific, so you'll actually gain power from doing it. Doing lots of riding on the drops out of the saddle (but not necessarily sprinting) will soon get your upper body used to that power that you feel you've lost. I've improved in that area a lot recently, yet my upper body weight has actually been decreasing (muscles I don't use in cycling).

Alex_Simmons/RST

Simon Notley wrote:

So, is there any particular approach to weight training, or any other kind of training, that I can do over winter to improve my short to medium term power output on the bike?

I'm not expecting a magic solution, just interested in sharing ideas.

Short sharp efforts on the bike.

Sprints, starts, short hard hill efforts, work on your anaerobic capacities. Far, far more useful than any gym work.

mackdaddy

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Simon Notley wrote:

So, is there any particular approach to weight training, or any other kind of training, that I can do over winter to improve my short to medium term power output on the bike?

I'm not expecting a magic solution, just interested in sharing ideas.

Short sharp efforts on the bike.

Sprints, starts, short hard hill efforts, work on your anaerobic capacities. Far, far more useful than any gym work.

+1

Be very careful with gym work, unless it is done correctly (rare) it will not increase explosive power. Most exercises in the gym are done in a way that teaches the muscles to decelerate. Squats is a good example, you are decelerating for probably half the lift because otherwise your feet would leave the floor!
All the things that Alex stated are far better for you.

Simon Notley

Thanks guys, I had suspected that weights work would be of little use. Looks like I'll be spending some time on the track and the indoor trainer then. Now I've just got to make my mind up about the base-building vs high-intensity schools of winter training...

Mackdaddy, you mention explosive work not being done correctly. What would you call correctly - something like jump squats? Or something else entirely.

mackdaddy

Contrary to the usual slow down-slow up version of squats (which work for power lifters but not as effective for other athletes) here is a version that focuses on starting acceleration only. There are others of course:

The Explosive Box Squat is an effective
Starting Acceleration exercise, when
executed correctly.
Make sure your lower back is locked at all
times and that the weight used in this
exercise is never more than 60% x 1rm.
You’ll notice also in the picture that the eyes
must always be cast upward.
Also, it is important to contract the
Transverse Abdominus whilst performing this
exercise.
Again, move extremely explosively, driving
initially through the hips, glutes and up
through the quads.

Lee

mackdaddy

I should have added that I'm not suggesting these should be used for you. I use these for sprinters where explosive acceleration is important on every step.
I'd reiterate my original support of Alex's advice, but I was just trying to answer your questions.

ps Jump squats are okay, but obviously there are risks involved with the landings and I avoid them. I use single leg step jumps instead using body weight only or a weightshirt.

Simon Notley

Cheers. interesting stuff. I'm not planning on trying any jump squats ( I don't have the facilities even if I wanted to) was just curious. In that case, I will cut out virtually all weights work (for my lower body at least) and replace it with working on the things Alex suggested.

mackdaddy

One thing that may be worth considering if you do feel 'weak' is to improve your core strength. It's probably the most important thing you can do off the bike to supplement the rest of your on-bike training.
Lower trunk strength does play a part and I know for me personally it is the first area that fatigues in a TT, usually my lower back.
This is one area that benefits from specific non-bike training as it is more effective that way. Many will disagree, but if it is a problem area (and it is in a suprising numbner of people - they just don't realise it) then just riding the bike will give much slower progress. I know I've done both.
Lee

jacster

I totally agree.
My sustainable power has increased thanks to core work.
That's where squats, step-ups and to a degree leg press is useful. Done correctly they are all compound moves which work more than one muscle group, particularly your core.
If you can't get out on your bike 4/5 times a week then hit the gym. Done correctly a good full body workout will not be wasted.
It will also help prevent injuries and imbalances, which in turn lead to less productive or lost training hours.

Alex_Simmons/RST

jacster wrote:

I totally agree.
My sustainable power has increased thanks to core work.
That's where squats, step-ups and to a degree leg press is useful. Done correctly they are all compound moves which work more than one muscle group, particularly your core.
If you can't get out on your bike 4/5 times a week then hit the gym. Done correctly a good full body workout will not be wasted.
It will also help prevent injuries and imbalances, which in turn lead to less productive or lost training hours.

Anecdotes are not evidence. Correlation does not necessarily imply not causation.

jacster

"Alex_Simmons/RST" wrote:
Anecdotes are not evidence. Correlation does not necessarily imply not causation.[/quote]

Neglect core work at your peril.

dexradio

All very interesting stuff from all the contributors above.

I'm interested in using my home gym to improve my strength and am struggling to get a "programme" of weight training exercise that I should incorporate for a full body workout that will benefit me on the bike.

My circumstances are different to most of you on this thread, in that, I'm not racing competitively (at least not yet) and am carrying a lot of weight. I do get out on the bike about 4 times a week and am building up my Aerobic Endurance. I'll continue doing that during the coming winter. But I can see the benefit of adding some weight training to my endeavours, to help create more "active" calorie burning muscle, and driving my Basal Metabolic Rate up, hence burning up a bit more fat. But I'd also like to do exercises that benefit my riding.

Can anyone provide some tips on what specific exercises I should put into a full body programme that will supplement my bike riding? I can google lots of information, but there is so much of it, its difficult to sort out whats useful and whats not. I usually follow a "keep it simple and basic, then you can't go too wrong" approach.

Any guidance appreciated.

Thanks,

Dex.

Alex_Simmons/RST

jacster wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

wrote:
Anecdotes are not evidence. Correlation does not necessarily imply not causation.

Neglect core work at your peril.

I'm getting all the core I need from bike training.

Alex_Simmons/RST

dexradio wrote:

All very interesting stuff from all the contributors above.

I'm interested in using my home gym to improve my strength and am struggling to get a "programme" of weight training exercise that I should incorporate for a full body workout that will benefit me on the bike.

My circumstances are different to most of you on this thread, in that, I'm not racing competitively (at least not yet) and am carrying a lot of weight. I do get out on the bike about 4 times a week and am building up my Aerobic Endurance. I'll continue doing that during the coming winter. But I can see the benefit of adding some weight training to my endeavours, to help create more "active" calorie burning muscle, and driving my Basal Metabolic Rate up, hence burning up a bit more fat. But I'd also like to do exercises that benefit my riding.

Can anyone provide some tips on what specific exercises I should put into a full body programme that will supplement my bike riding? I can google lots of information, but there is so much of it, its difficult to sort out whats useful and whats not. I usually follow a "keep it simple and basic, then you can't go too wrong" approach.

Any guidance appreciated.

Thanks,

Dex.

You might raise BMR a bit but riding moderately for 20min will burn more energy per day than an increase in BMR.

Best training for riding a bike is riding a bike.
Train to become more powerful.
Eat to become lean.

jacster

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

jacster wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

wrote:
Anecdotes are not evidence. Correlation does not necessarily imply not causation.

Neglect core work at your peril.

I'm getting all the core I need from bike training.

Fair enough. Each to their own.
But to dismiss core work is folly.

mackdaddy

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

[
Anecdotes are not evidence. Correlation does not necessarily imply not causation.

Doesn't that contradict your comment that you get all the core work you need from cycling? Maybe it is all that you need but is inadequate for me.
My point (and jacsters I think) was that if you need additional core strength then it is generally more effective to do it off the bike. There is plenty of supporting data for this although as you point out, with any training regime, the results are usually subjective. Sometimes the Hawthorne effect is more of a factor than the regime.

ride_whenever

you cannot get enough core from on the bike only, you'll tend to over-develop your back at the expense of the front of your trunk.

dexradio

Dex.[/quote]
You might raise BMR a bit but riding moderately for 20min will burn more energy per day than an increase in BMR.

Best training for riding a bike is riding a bike.
Train to become more powerful.
Eat to become lean.[/quote]

Yep, I'm doing that. I'm riding about 4-5 days a week, and got the diet under control, so the weight is dropping off now, and will continue to do that. I work from home a lot and have the opportunity to do some weight work in the morning perhaps 3 days a week. My riding is what I call my "virtual commute" since I don't actually have a commute as such. Its my way of getting myself out the door.

Still interested in getting a bit of weight training in, I'm not trying to be the "best" cyclist in the world so I don't mind a bit of muscle to try and tone up this flabby vessel I currently inhabit.

So any pointers on where to start still gratefully received.

Ta,

Dex.

Alex_Simmons/RST

How much core strength do you guys actually think you need to ride a bike?

And even if it were inadequate, the body would respond to the training stimulus and improve it accordingly. It's pretty darn clever like that.

If you want more core strength for other things in life, that's fine, but until you (or anyone) can provide evidence for the assertion that off bike core work work improves sustainable aerobic power, then I'll stick to the specificity principle.

jacster

I guess the evidence of those at the very top of the cycling world wouldn't count?
And that's presumably why they are at the very top?

Edwin

jacster wrote:

I guess the evidence of those at the very top of the cycling world wouldn't count?
And that's presumably why they are at the very top?

That's weak logic I'm afraid. They're at the top because they are naturally talented, and also train a hell of a lot on a bike, not because they do core exercises as well - that doesn't follow.
I do a core workout pretty much every day - ab planks, medicine ball jackknives, Swiss ball work etc - and I'm certainly never going to be pro, I do it because I want a six pack. Simple vanity I'm afraid, let's be honest!

jacster

Surely core work is part of the process?
The core work is part and parcel of their training plans..
I'd rather imitate a pro than some guy who posts on here.
And considering I always ride with a top on I'm not bothered about the vanity angle pal.

Edwin

Well, I don't think I'm particularly vain but I just don't want to look like 'The Chicken'. Google that picture of Rasmussen with his top off, it's disgusting. He doesn't look like he's got any core strength, and he'd certainly kick your arse on a bike, pal
Seriously though, it doesn't follow that what's good for the professionals is good for us amatuer internet forum people. For a start they're doing this full time, they can do all sorts of extra training. Anyone with limited time needs to concentrate on what will give the greatest benefit, which is surely training on a bike.
I'm not arguing against doing a bit of weight training *as well* if you have the time, I just don't think it helps to ride a bike faster.

Alex_Simmons/RST

jacster wrote:

I guess the evidence of those at the very top of the cycling world wouldn't count?
And that's presumably why they are at the very top?

What evidence is that?

Alex_Simmons/RST

jacster wrote:

I'd rather imitate a pro than some guy who posts on here.

Well don't pick out the "core work" a Pro might do without also doing everything else they do, like say ride 25+ hours/week (and not noodling along either).

And would you make poor equipment choices because "that's what the Pros use"?

jacster wrote:

And considering I always ride with a top on I'm not bothered about the vanity angle pal.

Well core strength is not really the outer visible muscles anyway....

jacster

If you can't find any evidence you shouldn't try and coach folk.
Typical flamin' arrogant Aussie

Alex_Simmons/RST

jacster wrote:

If you can't find any evidence you shouldn't try and coach folk.
Typical flamin' arrogant Aussie

An ad hominem is not going to help your argument. What on earth has my nationality got to do with an inspection of the (lack of) evidence?

You're the one making the claims, so back it up with some evidence. An inability to do so, yet persist with claims regardless to me suggests arrogance.

Given I use science and evidence based principles to coach people (as well as professionalism), and have coached people to results including world & national championships and a world record, then you're right, maybe I should stop coaching :roll:

dilemna

I find doing 10 sit ups before and after my ride helps keep my stomach in. Otherwise the stomach area seems to develope a spare tyre appearance. Maybe I should cut down on the pizzas as well, but I'm loathed to do this as I love them.

Occasionally I might try and do some push ups but generally I can only manage 2 or 3 max as I am so knackered. How do the Pro cyclists get so thin? Do they starve themselves like catwalk models? Trouble is cycling makes so hungry but my eyes are more hungry than my stomach so I put on weight. I am a little shorter and much heavier (78kg) than the poster above who said he was 5'10" and 63kg. He must be able to slide under doors at that height and weight. How can I get near his weight or Wiggos?