How to get stronger over winter... I'm fit but weak!
Comments
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jacster wrote:Everyone will make decisions on their regime based on experience/opinions/advice/scientific studies etc etc..
It's blatantly obvious I am in favour of core work. That is based on my own personal experiences, those of people I ride with, physios I know and the majority of 'top' trainers and cyclists.
I would just like to point out, though, that I have no interest in plugging any particular workout or training plan.
Alex Simmons, on the other hand, links to training plans (which cost money) every time he posts.
He links to plans which make no mention of core work.
In fact Ric Stern, the coach he links to, argues vehemently in favour of 'ride your bike, ride your bike, ride your bike'.
I just wish other coaches would come onto this forum and give their advice. And perhaps they wouldn't feel the need to link to ££ training plans every time they post.
So because he disputes your pet theory, and I see you're doing making up claims about it again in this post, and you don't like it you feel the need to resort to cheap shots? Alex has been a long standing poster on this forum, as has Ric Stern and a few other professional coaches, and has earnt a lot of respect.0 -
You can do the necessary core work whilst on the turbo, just cycle along doing your long rides but include sections in position as if on the hoods but without using your hands.
It also depends on how much time you have to train, the more time you have to train, the greater the likelihood that some off-bike training will reap relevant rewards. Mainly because you can train more without reaching training overload.
I mean say you can get 20 hours of training in a week, which is a quite feasible amount, 2*1.5 hours a day in the week with one day off, two 4 hour rides at the weekend, you're going to quite likely hit overtraining with such a workload. But if you drop a couple of the weekday slots and replace them with circuits/cross training/core work/weights then you'll be able to push harder in your on the bike training without reaching the same level of on-the-bike exhaustion.0 -
ShockedSoShocked wrote:Adding some personal experience here:
I've started at uni recently and i'm recieving support from them with regards to my cycling as I've shown (some!) decent potential in testing etc. I went for a screening which analyzed my pedal stroke/flexibility/strength. I thought (and have recieved comments) that I have a very smooth pedalling style even in the big gears, and that my upper body remains static. After having a strength and conditioning coach analyze me, I'm not as good as I thought. My core is relatively weak, i'm not very flexible and my left leg is noticably stronger that my right. My right leg also doesn't track quite as well (slight wobble as opposed to my left leg which is spot on). My ankle flexibility is also crap which means my toes point down slightly when pedalling. My balance is also rubbish.
THis is why I started the Gym work this winter... My right leg, after a hip injury that affected me way more than I thought) a couple of years ago, my right leg is much weaker than my left. Also, my flexibility is poor and, due to weak muscles in my back, I have poor posture and the inablility to hold a proper position on the bike for the required length of time (TTs, Long descents). This kind of thing has been a weak-spot for me for years!"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Rubbish. Where have I said that?mackdaddy wrote:However, Alex is against any training that doesn't involve the bike.
I think you'll find my line is pretty consistent:
- Strength is not a limiter to endurance cycling performance. This applies to legs as well as core musculature.
- I suggest people understand what is meant by "strength" in exercise physiology.
- Strength and endurance are not related.
- The best training for improving cycling performance is to ride a bike (in a sensible manner). No where do I say ride a bike stupidly, or ride too much, or ride too little. or too hard or too soft.
- If you can't ride, then some training is better than none (and I usually provide examples of what this might involve - preferably something that involves major muscles groups in an aerobically meaningful manner)
- If you want to do non-bike exercise for reasons other than improving endurance cycling performance, that's fine. You might be injured, or be looking for improvements in non-cycling activity, or be vain for instance.
- I have never said doing core work is bad for you or is detrimental to ECP (unless it affects the amount of time that might be better spent on a bike)
- If your cycling events involve a high degree of neuromuscular explosiveness (e.g. a track sprinter, BMX) then i. these are not endurance cycling events and ii. there is definitely a role for off bike strength work to aid performance on the bike in such events (but even then the nature of that work is variable depending upon an individual's unique physiological profile).
- start off with a well fitted bicycle. It will go a long way to helping you be more comfortable and perform better (provided you train sensibly).
- I base my judgements and advice on the available body of evidence and sound exercise physiology principles, rather than a belief based approach.
As to my "pecuniary interest", I make the following comments:jacster wrote:Alex Simmons, on the other hand, links to training plans (which cost money) every time he posts.
He links to plans which make no mention of core work.
In fact Ric Stern, the coach he links to, argues vehemently in favour of 'ride your bike, ride your bike, ride your bike'.
I just wish other coaches would come onto this forum and give their advice. And perhaps they wouldn't feel the need to link to ££ training plans every time they post.
- Unlike a majority on here, I post under my real name.
- yes, I am a professional cycling coach and that's how I earn my living. If any other coach came on here to offer advice, they too would have a pecuniary interest. So how do you expect to mix with professionals in a field?
- if reading advice from a professional in their field of speciality is a bad idea, then I suppose you would ask your local greengrocer for medical advice
- the moderators and forum owners are more than happy for my contributions on this (and other forums) and for my sig line. At least I have taken the time to either meet with some of them or discuss personally via email. Gee - even one has consulted me for some specific advice and analysis related to improving their on-bike performance.
- I stand by the large volume of freely available high quality information and advice I provide, both at this and other forums and also on free to access sites such as my blog.
As for Ric Stern and the "ride your bike, ride your bike" quote - well he was simply quoting Eddy Merkcx I believe (or some other very famous cyclist).
Finally - what annoys me most about this and other similar threads (not that I'm all that annoyed really) is the inference being made by jacster that if you ride a bike and don't do core work, you'll live to regret it. That is just twaddle.0 -
Phew - I just got back from a really good core endurance workout - 60-min of hard tempo in middle of an endurance ride.
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You know, I had another look at the abstract of that research you referenced. Amongst a number of comments that could be made, I noticed an interesting element from the data summary.jacster wrote:An interesting article from the Washington Post...
Despite significantly pre-fatiguing riders' core musculature before a cycling performance test, the riders' pedal forces (power outputs) were the same as when they were not pre-fatigued.
So if core strength is so important to endurance cycling performance, how could that possibly be the case? Surely their ability to generate power would have been significantly diminished.... but it wasn't....
Of course pre-fatiguing oneself before you go out training would be silly, but that's another matter.0 -
Alex, you're right, strictly speaking, you never said you were against any off bike training.
I guess that is an extrapolation on my part, based on the comments you've made. Although we disagree on whether core training assists or not, I have always said it should not be done at the expense of any on bike training.
As far as it goes, I do think your advice on here is always freely given and worthwhile, whether I agree with it or not and unlike jacster I don't care whether it promotes your professional coaching or not. It probably does, but so what? I think that's a good thing for the sport. Not enough people use coaches in my opinion.
Not sure whether posting under real names includes me, but I don't charge for any of my coaching (cycling, athletics or otherwise) as it is not my main profession. I've been coaching quite a few years, but voluntarily at clubs with an additional small set of individuals only.
Other than that I agree with all your comment in the response post! Keep em coming.0 -
My point about using my real name is that everything I say I stand behind. I do not throw out ad hominems from behind the veil of a pseudonym or an alter ego.mackdaddy wrote:Not sure whether posting under real names includes me, but I don't charge for any of my coaching (cycling, athletics or otherwise) as it is not my main profession. I've been coaching quite a few years, but voluntarily at clubs with an additional small set of individuals only.
I don't think that would be you either.
I too provide pro-bono coaching services, mainly for my club, but I have also for a couple of years run evening training at our local Velodrome.0 -
Pross. Hysteria, really?
Well, when a certain poster resorts to name calling (and now suggesting that another poster's advice is just to make themselves money) it's getting pretty close!
You point out that you coach in athletics and seemingly specialising in explosive events such as sprints. In that situation I'm sure core strength helps more than in an endurance event. On that basis I'm sure it will help bursts of power such as sprints or short climbs within a longer race assuming you still have time to do the base bike work. I don't know anything about coaching but I suspect that track sprinters do a lot me gym work on their strength than the endurance riders do (judging by the relative physiques). What I do know is that I was advised by my chiropractor to do some bike riding to strengthen my 'core muscles' to support my back which suggested to me that riding in itself will help to strengthen your core :?0 -
Alexsimmons,
Good luck to you using the free advertising that comes with this website.
Unlike many other sites I use, this one does seem to allow it. :roll:
A question for you, though..Do you include any off-bike core work into the training plans you devise?0 -
Why don't you buy one and find out?jacster wrote:Alexsimmons,
Good luck to you using the free advertising that comes with this website.
Unlike many other sites I use, this one does seem to allow it. :roll:
A question for you, though..Do you include any off-bike core work into the training plans you devise? 0 -
I'd only part with cash if I knew what I was buying! :?0
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I don't know where you hang but I participate in about a dozen specialised cycle training forums and every one of them is OK with my sig line.jacster wrote:Good luck to you using the free advertising that comes with this website.
Unlike many other sites I use, this one does seem to allow it. :roll:
I actually do or have paid for advertising on some but I can't afford to do so on all of them all the time. But given the amount of assistance I happily provide, I've generally been welcomed onto sites (indeed I've been asked/invited to join some of them).
TBH - I probably spend way too much time in virtual pubs, um, I mean places, like this.0 -
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
TBH - I probably spend way too much time in virtual pubs, um, I mean places, like this.
I'd agree with you there.
My main beef with you, Alex, is not over the support you offer riders..great, good on you.
But, if you remember early on in this thread, it seems you are only too willing to 'jump' onto other posters' remarks..mine being one.
Rather than just offer constructive advice you like to 'correct' something you BELIEVE to be wrong. (And that's probably the reason you spend so much time in a virtual world rather than a real one!)
And every time one of these 'corrections' appears - hey, so does a link to your training plans..which cost.0 -
I only contribute in the training forum when I know what I'm talking about. Maybe that's a rule you could follow?0
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If that were true, andyp, you wouldn't have posted in this thread would you? :roll:0
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I play the ball, not the man. And if I see something that's not right, why shouldn't I suggest otherwise? If you don't want a comment jumped on, then don't post unsubstantiated claims like "ignore core at your peril" as if it's going to threaten one's life.jacster wrote:But, if you remember early on in this thread, it seems you are only too willing to 'jump' onto other posters' remarks..mine being one.
Rather than just offer constructive advice you like to 'correct' something you BELIEVE to be wrong.
This is a cycle training forum, so how about posting some substantiated advice about improving cycling performance, rather than go on about core strength, when i. strength is not related to endurance performance and ii. there's no evidence that such work improves EC performance. Indeed the one item of "evidence" you did link doesn't even support your claims.
As well as many thousands of words, charts, pictures in many, many dozens of freely available and quite helpful articles about cycle training.jacster wrote:And every time one of these 'corrections' appears - hey, so does a link to your training plans..which cost.0 -
Thought there might be some useful tips related to training here but instead I find a couple of self important know it alls bitching at each other... have you guys got nothing better to do with your time?0
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Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:I play the ball, not the man. And if I see something that's not right, why shouldn't I suggest otherwise? If you don't want a comment jumped on, then don't post unsubstantiated claims like "ignore core at your peril" as if it's going to threaten one's life.
This is a cycle training forum, so how about posting some substantiated advice about improving cycling performance, rather than go on about core strength, when i. strength is not related to endurance performance and ii. there's no evidence that such work improves EC performance. Indeed the one item of "evidence" you did link doesn't even support your claims.
The thing is Alex, you don't ignore your core, do you?
You're well aware of the need to have a strong core..
Not only do you develop it on the bike, but you also do yoga.
You are a contradiction in terms.
Where was the substantive evidence you REQUIRE to undertake yoga to improve your performance?
Put simply you think YOU know best.
I, and I suspect many others, will concur with the opinions of the world's top trainers and cyclists..rather than a 'coach' who spends his time in a virtual world, correcting everything he believes is wrong.
You, my friend, should spend more time in the real world.0 -
Do you actually understand the concept of irony, jacster?
I think not. 0 -
It's ironic you came out with that, now! 0
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jacster wrote:Put simply you think YOU know best.
And so do you, but can't prove it.
I have asked for the exact exercises to do to replicate an hour at racing pace, but no-one has done. I presume that there is no-one out there that actually knows of an exercise that will simulate that.
If you have core issues, then core work is going to help, if you don't have core issues, then core work is unlikely to make you be more powerful (ie a higher FTP). Only cycling is likely to improve FTP.
Lets not forget pro's ride bikes for a living, they might get core issues due to riding which need sorting out, plus they have everyday to train. If you only have 7 hours to training (like alot of riders do), then wasting an hour doing core work each week will more likely hinder your performance. Why non pro's think they can train like a pro I am not sure, they just don't have the same time available, unless unemployed.0 -
At least British coaches are being taught how to help riders achieve their full potential..
http://new.britishcycling.org.uk/coachi ... -Stability0 -
jacster wrote:At least British coaches are being taught how to help riders achieve their full potential..
http://new.britishcycling.org.uk/coachi ... -Stability
Are you sure?
Core Stability training always begins with assessment by a qualified practitioner and is outside the remit of the Level 3 Certificate in Coaching Cycling. Many sports physiotherapists are experienced in this area and will be able to assess your riders or refer them to another appropriate practitioner or body
Since level 3 is the highest you can achieve with BC, then even a level 3 coach will not go into that
As I have said in the past, if you have core issues, go see a psyhio.0 -
Have a full read of the text..
"an understanding of what is involved is essential, so that you can incorporate stability training into the overall programme" 0 -
Yes, but they advise the rider seeing a specialist, and that physio recommending what to do, not the actual coach, the coach will work with the physio to make sure the best exercises are done with the riders particular issue, but I doubt it would just be general core work as suggested on here.
Now some riders might need core work, if they have core issues. They even list some symptons.
Movement dysfunctions can occur because of many different factors. As a guide, poor Core Stability manifests itself in the following ways:
•Riders may overuse their hip flexors, abdominals or lower-back muscles to maintain form and position.
•Riders may change their trunk position in order to feel comfortable when cycling.
•Riders may clench their jaws or bite their lips.
•Riders may use their elbows and knees inappropriately while riding (eg wiggle their elbows or knees), which may affect their quality of movement and their optimum aerodynamic position.
Now if you don't have any of the symptoms, then you will not likely have an issue, they will not send every rider to a physio, that costs money. If you have core issues, see a physio, if not then just ride your bike. Not everyone needs to do core work IMO.0 -
SBezza wrote:
I have asked for the exact exercises to do to replicate an hour at racing pace, but no-one has done. I presume that there is no-one out there that actually knows of an exercise that will simulate that.
If you have core issues, then core work is going to help, if you don't have core issues, then core work is unlikely to make you be more powerful (ie a higher FTP). Only cycling is likely to improve FTP.
Lets not forget pro's ride bikes for a living, they might get core issues due to riding which need sorting out, plus they have everyday to train. If you only have 7 hours to training (like alot of riders do), then wasting an hour doing core work each week will more likely hinder your performance. Why non pro's think they can train like a pro I am not sure, they just don't have the same time available, unless unemployed.
There aren't any exercise to my knowledge or experience that can simulate an hours riding, running or anything else. They are supplemental, no more, no less.
I'd also agree that your second and third points are absolutely correct. Would never say otherwise.
Lee (real name for Alex ) 0
