240 miles in 9 hours.

Pokerface

blackhands wrote:

Well, I was under the impression that he wanted to break the RRA record as stated on his blog:

"In 1981 John Woodburn set the Road Records Association Record for London to Bath and back. He covered the 211 miles in just 9 hours, 3 minutes and 7 seconds. A time so formidable that it has stood for over 28 years unchallenged. This my training blog as I attempt the break the record."

It's not an official attempt. No one there to verify it, etc.

blackhands

Oh, I thought it was going to be a formal attempt on the record acording to his previous posts - has he now changed his mind?

Shavedlegs wrote:

Yes, Ruth I will be registering the attempt. I have to provide a detailed schedule and arrange many other things as I'm sure you know, so I'll be registering nearer the time when I know a bit more. I still haven't even chosen the time of day I leave London, it is quite a big debate with friends.

Pokerface

Then I stand corrected.

bahzob

Notwithstanding

"Definition of unpaced riding
10.02. A rider attempting a record shall ride entirely alone and unassisted. He must not ride in company with, nor take shelter from any other rider nor from any vehicle..."

in reality of course riders on today's roads will be passed by many vehicles not involved in the attempt at all. These can and do provide a degree of shelter which in part explains why some of the fastest TT times are recorded on stretches of busy dual carriageway. Riders have long known this and taking advantage of this fact is part and parcel of the sport.

I'd advise shavedlegs to check this out while training on the route and, if he finds it applies, time his attempt to give best chance of optimal traffic conditions. (one of the reasons I don't think starting at 5a.m. is such a good idea),

SBezza

The taking shelter part, actually means you can't ride behind a car that is going the same speed as you, ie what the pro riders do getting back into the bunch. You don't tend to get shelter as such on a dual carriageway, you just get carried along in the draught a vehicle makes, as they are never really in front of you close enough to get proper shelter.

I would caution trying to do it with too much traffic, there is more chance of having an accident, also by leaving it later leaving, there is a worse chance of getting caught in traffic lights at the start of the attempt. Traffic lights are more likely to be in SL's favour early in the morning.

Starting at 5 shouldn't be a problem. most of my races seem to be before the sun gets up properly, might be a little slower in these, but not by a massive amount. It will give SL time to get warmed up, and into the swing of things, the fastest part of the ride will be outside of London, and it should be mid morning by then, and getting warm. Get the body used to waking and riding early, and your body will generally adapt.

bahzob

Starting at 5.am means getting up at 2-3 a.m. the time of day mind and body are at lowest ebb. Pretty much like a dose of jet lag and not the best way to start a record attempt. If he does start at this time then SL will have to spend some days before the event getting used to going to bed very early and getting up at this time to allow his body to adjust.

As point of fact dont think any races start at 5.am.? Only exception I know of is 12hr TTs. Even for these the fastest riders will start much later, more like 7a.m and I am pretty sure they are happy about this.

SBezza

I started my 12 hr at just after 6 I think, as I had never done one, and finished 5th, and some of the 50m and 100m TT's in Kent start from as early as 5:30 in the morning, mainly due to traffic counts later in the day. 100m National is a 5:30 start as well. With normal TT's in a full field the 12th fastest person will start 10 mins after the start time , as you are placed throughout the field based on your LTS.

Now if you condition the body to early starts the body can adapt. It doesn't bother me getting up at 3am if I need to, though some people will hate it. I used to get up at all hours due to being on call, and being called out at anytime, so I guess I have got used to getting up early.

To be honest SL's might be at a low ebb for the first couple of hours, but this will probably be the slowest part of the attempt anyhow, getting out of London will not be fast, and it is only once he is out of London he will be able to pick up the speed. His body will be warmed up and ready for the harder efforts then IMO, and he will probably get more benefit from the traffic early in the morning in London, than he might lose by getting up early.

Pokerface

bahzob wrote:

Starting at 5.am means getting up at 2-3 a.m. the time of day mind and body are at lowest ebb. Pretty much like a dose of jet lag and not the best way to start a record attempt. If he does start at this time then SL will have to spend some days before the event getting used to going to bed very early and getting up at this time to allow his body to adjust.

As point of fact dont think any races start at 5.am.? Only exception I know of is 12hr TTs. Even for these the fastest riders will start much later, more like 7a.m and I am pretty sure they are happy about this.

It's dark at 5:00AM. Why would you start a race in the dark? Plus - races start later so that people have time to GET THERE from other places.

What you say is no doubt true re: low ebb, but race start times are more about logistics than energy levels.


**TTs don't count as races. Those can start any time.

Bunch races don't start in the dark as it would be dangerous and well, impossible.

SBezza

It isn't dark at 5am in mid summer though.

With TT's, races start based on the time you have to be off the road, based on local conditions. In Kent we have very few PM events, they are mainly early morning events, due to traffic counts later in the day. Most start at 7am, though some of the longer events start as early as 5:30 am.

blackhands

bahzob wrote:

I'd advise shavedlegs to check this out while training on the route and, if he finds it applies, time his attempt to give best chance of optimal traffic conditions. (one of the reasons I don't think starting at 5a.m. is such a good idea),

You have overlooked the fact that as its an out and back record a 5am start will bring him to the finish at about 2pm - any later and he'll encounter the evening rush hour.

bahzob

SBezza wrote:

Now if you condition the body to early starts the body can adapt. It doesn't bother me getting up at 3am if I need to, though some people will hate it. I used to get up at all hours due to being on call, and being called out at anytime, so I guess I have got used to getting up early.

To be honest SL's might be at a low ebb for the first couple of hours, but this will probably be the slowest part of the attempt anyhow, getting out of London will not be fast, and it is only once he is out of London he will be able to pick up the speed. His body will be warmed up and ready for the harder efforts then IMO, and he will probably get more benefit from the traffic early in the morning in London, than he might lose by getting up early.

You said it like I said it. You dont find it such an issue because you;ve been used to being on call. If SL starts at 5.am he needs to train in order to do so by changing his routine some days in advance of the event. Regards traffic,, well we will just have to agree to differ. The traffic, even in London, is very light during 6-7 which is when I would suggest SL starts. It will not hinder his progress, indeed may be helpful.

Regardless what he should do is do a couple of practice runs of the first hour or so of the course, starting at whatever time he will on event day. Then he can judge for himself the advantages and disadvantages. He will also get a pretty precise schedule for that section of the course which is crucial since its going to be slow and he needs to know how much he has to make up on the remainder.

If he's going to be thorough, and he needs to be, he should also do the same at the Bath end of the route. In his ride John Woodburn had problems there and there may be a good/bad time to be there according to local conditions.

bahzob

blackhands wrote:

bahzob wrote:

I'd advise shavedlegs to check this out while training on the route and, if he finds it applies, time his attempt to give best chance of optimal traffic conditions. (one of the reasons I don't think starting at 5a.m. is such a good idea),

You have overlooked the fact that as its an out and back record a 5am start will bring him to the finish at about 2pm - any later and he'll encounter the evening rush hour.

No I didnt. You overlooked that its Sunday. The rush hour is much less predictable then and there may be more traffic on the road at 2.p,m. than 4pm when everyone is watching the footy. As per earlier posts what SL needs to do is ride the route at the expected time and judge for himself.

Also I'm not saying delay the start unduly. If I was doing the attempt I'd draw up a pre-ride timetable starting with getting out of bed at 4.am. I guess I would start at around 6.

bahzob

One question for those more familiar with the rules than I.

Is the route proscribed in terms of where you start and finish or just the route/distance you must ride.

In other words do you have to start and finish at a precise place in London? Or could you start midway along the A4 and ride to London>Bath>back to cross start point?

BeaconRuth

bahzob wrote:

Is the route proscribed in terms of where you start and finish or just the route/distance you must ride.

In other words do you have to start and finish at a precise place in London? Or could you start midway along the A4 and ride to London>Bath>back to cross start point?

Neither the start/finish points nor the route are prescribed IIRC. You can start and finish anywhere and use any roads as long as the official timekeepers clock you at the prescribed points in Bath and London and at the start/finish (wherever that might be).

I think I'm right in saying it's fairly unusual in RRA circles to choose a day and make an attempt whatever the weather. Most people attempting records submit their schedule to the RRA with a window of time specified in which they may make their attempt. I guess it matters less on an out and back attempt than on a straight-out attempt such as the End to End, but all the same, if it's blowing a gale that day, it could turn a very hard challenge into an impossible one.

Ruth

bahzob

Thanks Ruth. With that clarification I'd be thinking of choosing a route with some care.

My preference would be to try and start on a section that allowed a clear run for quite a while (2-3 hours) then use the sections where you have to slow (worst case stop) for a bit of recovery. At all costs I'd try to avoid starting somewhere with lots of traffic lights early on. And I'd plan a few attempts like mentioned earlier. Enter 100TT, ride it, recover 30mins or so then reride with aim of both 100s being around the same time.

And like you say for sure think you need to leave some options in terms of when you ride.

Shavedlegs

Once again, I have found 5 minutes.

Bahzob,
Many thanks for your thoughts and helpful advice and of course the donation. Very generous on both counts.

Pokerface,
My first goal is to raise as much money as possible, breaking the record is second to that. Just riding the distance isn't something I'd consider asking sponsorship for, mainly because it is something I wouldn't mind doing anyway for enjoyment. Training this hard, for this long I think is deserving, as I'm genuinely putting myself out. (and my family).

Ruth,
I think I have to start within 30 minutes of my schedule, I'll need to check. You can start/finish anywhere for distance records, but for place to place the terminus and turning points are fixed.
The start/finish is Hyde Park corner and the turning point is St. Michael's church in Bath. Otherwise Bahzob I like your thinking. I will be entering a 100TT or two but also riding the 100 course on my own as it fits into my schedule. Probably the A31, as it's not to far from my house.

I will let you know how I go on these runs. Sorry no powermeter, I just can't afford one, or the nice Zipp wheels I keep looking at. I may rent something depending on what my coach advises.

Sponsorship is a funny thing, and getting people you don't know to donate is hard. In some way it's like I'm being given something not the charity or the people they help. I'd hoped my challenge may reach a wider audience than family,friends and colleagues. Of course it is early days.

I'm a bit of a stranger to sleep. Two children with refux have seen to that. My 2 year old wakes between 1am and 2am every night, and then gets up properly between 4am and 5am. Of course I will need to practise being active at that time as well.

Please keep all the thoughts coming. As Ruth says this a very hard challenge, but perhaps not impossibe. Your support is very much appreciated.

I want to send in my schedule and 50 copies to the RRA in May, so there is time to change the proposed start time.

BeaconRuth

Shavedlegs wrote:

Ruth,
I think I have to start within 30 minutes of my schedule, I'll need to check. You can start/finish anywhere for distance records, but for place to place the terminus and turning points are fixed. The start/finish is Hyde Park corner and the turning point is St. Michael's church in Bath.

I was pretty sure that the start/finish point is not fixed and this, from the RRA website, seems to confirm it:

"7.06. In the case of the three double-journey place to place records, the starting point, which shall also be the finishing point, may be opposite either of the terminal points or at any easily identifiable intermediate point. A record aspirant shall turn at or pass the other appropriate terminal point if starting at one of the terminal points or both terminal points if starting at an intermediate point."

I'm also pretty sure that the great record-breakers of the past like Eileen Sheridan and John Woodburn would have carefully selected their start/finish point and timing so that they hit the most congested places at the optimal time. Bahzob is very worried about your sleeping patterns but I'm pretty sure that the traffic lights and congestion issues have always been considered a greater hindrance to record-breaking than fitting with a rider's body rhythms.

I'm sure 5am is a good time to set off from Hyde Park Corner but with your plan you've got to return to it at about 4pm. However, if you started elsewhere and timed the ride carefully, you could perhaps do all the London riding at the quietest possible time. Say, start just outside London at 5am, go into London and then out again before the traffic levels increase.

Ruth

Percy Vera

BeaconRuth wrote:

....start just outside London at 5am, go into London and then out again before the traffic levels increase.

Ruth

That makes sense.

Aapje

My advice would be to take advantage of the rules to the maximum extent possible. This includes finding some helpers. I'm sure that there are some guys who don't mind helping you on this epic attempt.

First of all, the rules allow a follow vehicle with an Official Observer. The people in the vehicle may give you food, water, mechanical support, map reading support and safety information (only after passing you and getting out). So get someone with a car and stock it with a solid supply of food, drinks and spare wheels (or are you going to abandon the attempt after a flat?).

Secondly, the rules do not prohibit closing down crossings. You might want to post an question to the forum on http://www.ukpoliceonline.co.uk and ask about the possibility to close down a few select crossings. If you are really lucky, you might find a cop or two that will help you in their free time. Another possibility is to get a few helpers to block the road for a few minutes when you are approaching (in close coordination with the follow vehicle). For instance, you can create some banners saying: Record attempt in progress, please wait a few minutes. Then your helpers can block the intersection using these banners. On a sunday, there is a decent chance that drivers will put up with it. Doing this for the most horrid crossings will save you a heap of time.

chrisw12

BeaconRuth wrote:

Shavedlegs wrote:

Ruth,
I think I have to start within 30 minutes of my schedule, I'll need to check. You can start/finish anywhere for distance records, but for place to place the terminus and turning points are fixed. The start/finish is Hyde Park corner and the turning point is St. Michael's church in Bath.

I was pretty sure that the start/finish point is not fixed and this, from the RRA website, seems to confirm it:

"7.06. In the case of the three double-journey place to place records, the starting point, which shall also be the finishing point, may be opposite either of the terminal points or at any easily identifiable intermediate point. A record aspirant shall turn at or pass the other appropriate terminal point if starting at one of the terminal points or both terminal points if starting at an intermediate point."

I'm also pretty sure that the great record-breakers of the past like Eileen Sheridan and John Woodburn would have carefully selected their start/finish point and timing so that they hit the most congested places at the optimal time. Bahzob is very worried about your sleeping patterns but I'm pretty sure that the traffic lights and congestion issues have always been considered a greater hindrance to record-breaking than fitting with a rider's body rhythms.

I'm sure 5am is a good time to set off from Hyde Park Corner but with your plan you've got to return to it at about 4pm. However, if you started elsewhere and timed the ride carefully, you could perhaps do all the London riding at the quietest possible time. Say, start just outside London at 5am, go into London and then out again before the traffic levels increase.

Ruth

That's very interesting. I've not read the rules but I'd always taken a place A to place B and back to mean you had to start at A and return to A to complete, but what you say makes a lot of sense since wherever you start you still have to close the loop so to speak.

Why I find this particularly interesting is that a few of the perhaps 'easier' records in Wales have Cardiff as a 'start' place. At the wrong time Cardiff (like all cities) is a nightmare to get through, but at the right time it's quite easy and fast. I wonder if a greater awareness of the rules would encourage more people to do this sort of ride.

As a sub note, the expense of these sort of records is quite prohibitive. It's a pity that we all couldn't just be 'gentlemen' about the whole thing and just take a gps along and send the data file in. Back to reality for me perhaps.

Percy Vera

chrisw12 wrote:

As a sub note, the expense of these sort of records is quite prohibitive. It's a pity that we all couldn't just be 'gentlemen' about the whole thing and just take a gps along and send the data file in. Back to reality for me perhaps.

If we were gentlemanly about it we wouldn't even need a GPS, just tell everyone about it when you get back!

sub55

chris,
a couple of things,
welsh place to place record rules are`nt necesserily the same as the RRA rules, although they are very similar.
having said that, starting midway between point a and point b is not a problem. as long as you finish at the same point you started and you must ride back the same way as you rode out. in other words ,you cant ride in a loop that would allow you to take advantage of a hill in one direction but ride around it coming back. i know as clear as mud.
as for the cost of doing a welsh record, mine cost me less than £30.00.
£7.00 to register my attempt and diesel for my support vehicle. my time keeper wavered his fee.
regards paul

blackhands

Shavedlegs wrote:

Ruth,
I think I have to start within 30 minutes of my schedule, I'll need to check. You can start/finish anywhere for distance records, but for place to place the terminus and turning points are fixed.
The start/finish is Hyde Park corner and the turning point is St. Michael's church in Bath.

Although the two ends are fixed you can start anywhere you want.

"7.06. In the case of the three double-journey place to place records, the starting point, which shall also be the finishing point, may be opposite either of the terminal points or at any easily identifiable intermediate point. A record aspirant shall turn at or pass the other appropriate terminal point if starting at one of the terminal points or both terminal points if starting at an intermediate point."

Shavedlegs

I should have known Ruth would be right. As I posted I thought I should check, I just remembered the term - terminal point.

So thank you all, esp. Ruth, Bahzob and Blackhands.

In truth the planning has been on the back burner with all the training.

bahzob

Shavedlegs wrote:

I should have known Ruth would be right. As I posted I thought I should check, I just remembered the term - terminal point.

So thank you all, esp. Ruth, Bahzob and Blackhands.

In truth the planning has been on the back burner with all the training.

Hm. Its March. The attempt is in August. A few less hours training and a few more planning would be a much more sensible investment of time. The saying piss poor planning leads to piss poor performance very much applies in this case. *

What's also worrying was that I asked my question after checking some of the deatils about John Woodburn's ride and was intrigued to find he started near Pangbourne Lane on the A4. You dont seem to know this which must mean you also don't know what splits he rode. I find this quite bizarre and dont understand how anyone can contemplate breaking a record without having a clear understanding of what they have to do.

Edit: lol I didn't say wee wee btw. Theoriginal has much better alliteration

Shavedlegs

No real excuse I'm afraid.

I only have as much time as I have. I am aware of how much I have to do, but I'm still a one man band. My fitness is still top priority, I have a lot to investigate for the planning the route and tactics.

If you are offering to help, then contact me alex@shavedlegs.co.uk.

andrewgturnbull

bahzob wrote:

[snip]
I find this quite bizarre and dont understand how anyone can contemplate breaking a record without having a clear understanding of what they have to do.
[snip]

I thought you'd been keeping up with this thread from the start?

Shavedlegs

I thought you'd been keeping up with this thread from the start?

Bronzie

Hey ShavedLegs - just read the last few updates on your blog and it looks like your are at least going the right direction - a sub 58min 25 including going off-course is good stuff.

Hope your Dad's latest round of treatments go well and will look out for the updates in the lead up to your June test-run.

Keep at it matey.

grahamcp

bumping this up so I can keep up with the blog - it had slipped to page 7!