Lance,not about the team ?

jamlala

wicked wrote:

Please do not drag the cancer thing in to somehow prove that the guy is some kind of super human. Fact is people tragically die from cancer every day and some of them have fought it with every ounce of strength they have to no avail.
LA's palmares is more than capable of speaking for him without introducing something that has nothing to do with sport.

Why not bring the cancer in? I'm sure its contributed to his attitude in a major way.
Not on the same level but people used to say the same about Nick Faldo when he was no 1 in golf, arrogant, not a team player, aloof etc. All top sports stars are these.

Pokerface

Totally off-topic, but I love how the camel toe on Alberto's shorts make him look like a girl. :shock:

PBo

JamLala wrote:

wicked wrote:

Please do not drag the cancer thing in to somehow prove that the guy is some kind of super human. Fact is people tragically die from cancer every day and some of them have fought it with every ounce of strength they have to no avail.
LA's palmares is more than capable of speaking for him without introducing something that has nothing to do with sport.

Why not bring the cancer in? I'm sure its contributed to his attitude in a major way.
Not on the same level but people used to say the same about Nick Faldo when he was no 1 in golf, arrogant, not a team player, aloof etc. All top sports stars are these.

Apart from ryder cup (at which he is one of the leading scorers all time) being a team player has never been a prerequisite of golf....

Bristol Exile

fraserq wrote:

wonderful athlete, great ambassador for cancer, shallow human being.

I would echo this and add that the attitude of many professional sportsmen is a selfish, childlike one - that is not a criticism - you have to be selfish to commit to the regimes that they do and they spend so much time doing this they dont always learn the meaning of humility. Witness Cracknell in "On thin ice" totally selfish at times, but totally driven

thamacdaddy

Think people are being a bit over the top here:

1/ I doubt many in astana hate lance as majority will be on his new team, levi, kloden, popo, maybe even chris horner and paulinho.

2/ He disrespected Astana by announcing new team - An Astana that have not only allowed Vino back in but held a press conf at their hotel and let them know via the press conf that next year JB and Armstrong would be out on their ear and not welcome. I don't think the Astana brand needs any loyalty shown as they are by no means respectable.

3/ Not played part of the team. I would say early he was more concerned with looking out for himself but after AC took control of his own destiny up Verbier LA defo toed the teamline. He could havestayed with the players up columbiere etc if you ask me but was clearly told to pace wiggins far enough behind to take the danger of wiggos TT out of the picture. They were all worried about Brad and there is no doubt Armstrong was a top pro on that stage.

On the whole I agree, he hasn't given AC much love or support and clearly hates losing out. Whether you like that arrogant streak or not what he achieved with his doctors fighting cancer cannot be disparraged and to do so is rather crass. Anyone having seen interviews with his docs will know it is as much his achievement, taking a more punishing programme of treatment and keeping the mental game straight to beat the cancer. Maybe its this single mindedness and arrogance that also helped him recover so I doubt he will worry.

Also anyone who watched the stages will have seen in the peloton at least he has far more support than he does on someone like here. Maybe because they all know he has influence and money etc but I can imagine he can pretty much pick whoever he wants for his team next year (bar AC of course).

Arkibal

I've defended LA (and JB) many times here, but this Tour has really been an eye opener for me.
Let's just say I don't have anything good to say about LA (or JB) anymore.

AC didn't crack under the mental pressure from LA/JB, well done.
http://www.diariosur.es/20090727/deport ... 90727.html

aurelio_-_banned

Arkibal wrote:

AC didn't crack under the mental pressure from LA/JB, well done.
http://www.diariosur.es/20090727/deport ... 90727.html

Astonishing. Even I am taken aback by that story, especially the first two paragraphs.

iainf72

Imagine how much anger Bertie must've been riding on in that TT after that.

Coriander

My Spanish just isn't up to reading it in the original language and it would appear Babelfish isn't up to doing an even vague comprehensible translation. What translation tools do people use, please?

aurelio_-_banned

Coriander wrote:

My Spanish just isn't up to reading it in the original language and it would appear Babelfish isn't up to doing an even vague comprehensible translation. What translation tools do people use, please?

Google isn't at all bad, better with some languages than others though.

http://translate.google.com/#

SpaceJunk

Coriander wrote:

My Spanish just isn't up to reading it in the original language and it would appear Babelfish isn't up to doing an even vague comprehensible translation. What translation tools do people use, please?

Use google translator. It's not 100% accurate, but the message comes across. Here's the opening 2 paragraphs:

A history of solitude. It happened on Thursday, hours before the time trial in Annecy. Counter declined to lobby Menthon Palace, the luxurious hotel in Astana. The Tour was still in play. Looked to the right, left. Nobody, nothing. Neither cars nor auxiliary. Cold sweat. Look at the clock. But where are they? The hotel is several kilometers from the exit. And the leader of the Tour, in flip flops, bag in hand and alone. Then came the 'hall', and sought an answer and found: Armstrong had ordered aides to go pick up his wife, his children and his friends to the airport.
Finally under the counter because it would be the last out in the time trial. Armstrong had taken the car. It was the last straw. Hot sweat. Of rabies[/b[. He called his brother Fran. And came to seek him in a private vehicle, to Annecy. Left and the last came first. His best victory. In the time trial. Alone. As has won his second Tour.

Not sure who got bitten by a dog though.

I hope this story isn't true. It would be disgusting if it is. That said, did you see how LA's family was just off the side of the stage during the final presentation? I'm not sure, but later AC was hugging (who I assume) was his family. They were behind the barrier with the rest of the crowd. Can someone verify this.

If so, why the preferential treatment??

disgruntledgoat

Blimey if that article is true Contador would have been fuming!

MrChuck

Ratkilla wrote:

Firecrakka wrote:

Like I said...Douche Bag.

I don't know what a douche bag is but I know what a Baw Bag is and the above picture proves that LA is a Baw Bag.

Grow up Lance.

No, the above picture proves absolutely nothing and if you think it does then it's you that needs to grow up.

Now, that's not to say that Arsmtrong is a great guy, and indeed there's plenty to suggest that he isn't, but there is no context to that picture at all other than the tone of the thread so reading anything at all into it is for the lazy or people who believe tabloid headlines.

While on the subject, I seem to recall plenty of quotes/soundbites of Armstrong openly admitting that Alberto (LA's words) was simply better than him. And as for him not attending the dinner, it doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to think that the internal politics at Astana are pretty complex and so there could be any number of reasons for Armstrong to skip it.

Anyhoo, I'm no LA apologist but most of the stuff on this thread says more about the posters than it does about Armstrong.

avalon

MrChuck wrote:

Ratkilla wrote:

Firecrakka wrote:

Like I said...Douche Bag.

I don't know what a douche bag is but I know what a Baw Bag is and the above picture proves that LA is a Baw Bag.

Grow up Lance.

No, the above picture proves absolutely nothing and if you think it does then it's you that needs to grow up.

Now, that's not to say that Arsmtrong is a great guy, and indeed there's plenty to suggest that he isn't, but there is no context to that picture at all other than the tone of the thread so reading anything at all into it is for the lazy or people who believe tabloid headlines.

While on the subject, I seem to recall plenty of quotes/soundbites of Armstrong openly admitting that Alberto (LA's words) was simply better than him. And as for him not attending the dinner, it doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to think that the internal politics at Astana are pretty complex and so there could be any number of reasons for Armstrong to skip it.

Anyhoo, I'm no LA apologist but most of the stuff on this thread says more about the posters than it does about Armstrong.

:roll:

simon_e

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Blimey if that article is true Contador would have been fuming!

Would explain the comment later about the hotel being the worst part of the tour. AC post-stage interview (Saturday IIRC), quoted elsewhere on this forum: "I had to ride 2 races, 1 on the bike and another in the hotel."

IMHO anyone who thinks Contador was somehow dissing his team was obviously watching a different race to me.

It is not helpful to use cancer as a point of debate in this thread. Why is it relevant? I don't understand. A 9 year old kid who lives round the corner from me 'beat' cancer after 3 years of chemo etc but she is still sweet, polite and endearing.

Earthbound

Bakunin wrote:

Armstrong's actions were weak, almost sad. He can actually learn a few things from Cavendish.

Dead right there, Jerkstrong never even looked at Contador on the final podium, he let his hand drift by in a most ungentlemenly 'hand shake' but didn't event have the dignity to look Contador in the eye and congratulate him.

The mark of a true champion is recognising and acknowledging other champions. Cav went looking for Thor after the finish line, shook his hand, patted his back.

I don't understand why Armstrong is coming back next year cos he hasn't got a hope in hell against Contador and the Schlecks. They'll be a year stronger, a year closer to their peak, Armstrong will just be another year past it. His ego must be so massive it's blinding him to the inevitable defeats next year, defeats which his self centred personality simply can't cope with.

A very ungratious sportsman.

dennisn

Ratkilla wrote:

Firecrakka wrote:

Like I said...Douche Bag.

I don't know what a douche bag is but I know what a Baw Bag is and the above picture proves that LA is a Baw Bag.

Grow up Lance.

Not following at all what that picture "proves". Please explain. How do you equate someone walking off a stage with a Baw Bag? I can't even come close to having
that kind of thought process in my mind. I really am very curious as to how you came up with this comparison. Very strange.

greeny12

Let me get my head around this...

That Spanish article suggests that the leader of the most important Grand Tour, on the morning of a potentially critical time trial, had to get his brother to give him a lift to the start line in a private car because his team had left him high and dry????

That simply can't be true, can it?

If it is true, it's absolutely crazy, as the only real beneficiary would have been the leading rider of a rival team, the ONLY man capable of living with Contador in the hilly stuff.

The mind boggles....and the reprint of Bruyneel's book would have to be changed to "We might as well lose"!!

SpaceJunk

greeny12 wrote:

Let me get my head around this...

That Spanish article suggests that the leader of the most important Grand Tour, on the morning of a potentially critical time trial, had to get his brother to give him a lift to the start line in a private car because his team had left him high and dry????

That simply can't be true, can it?

If it is true, it's absolutely crazy, as the only real beneficiary would have been the leading rider of a rival team, the ONLY man capable of living with Contador in the hilly stuff.

The mind boggles....and the reprint of Bruyneel's book would have to be changed to "We might as well lose"!!

I don't believe that is exactly what happened. No one in their right mind would jeopardize their team's virtually unassailable lead in the Tour by doing that. Surely not.

It's not like AC just rocks up at the start line. He has to warm up first. What I'm guessing happened is that AC couldn't see anyone around, panics and then calls his brother. Someone from Astana were surely just about to pick him up.

If you didn't want AC to finish, it would be less embarrassing (and incriminating) to give him food poisoning.

MrChuck

SpaceJunk wrote:

greeny12 wrote:

Let me get my head around this...

That Spanish article suggests that the leader of the most important Grand Tour, on the morning of a potentially critical time trial, had to get his brother to give him a lift to the start line in a private car because his team had left him high and dry????

That simply can't be true, can it?

If it is true, it's absolutely crazy, as the only real beneficiary would have been the leading rider of a rival team, the ONLY man capable of living with Contador in the hilly stuff.

The mind boggles....and the reprint of Bruyneel's book would have to be changed to "We might as well lose"!!

I don't believe that is exactly what happened. No one in their right mind would jeopardize their team's virtually unassailable lead in the Tour by doing that. Surely not.

It's not like AC just rocks up at the start line. He has to warm up first. What I'm guessing happened is that AC couldn't see anyone around, panics and then calls his brother. Someone from Astana were surely just about to pick him up.

If you didn't want AC to finish, it would be less embarrassing (and incriminating) to give him food poisoning.

Agreed, it just doesn't make any sense really.

avalon

greeny12 wrote:

Let me get my head around this...

That Spanish article suggests that the leader of the most important Grand Tour, on the morning of a potentially critical time trial, had to get his brother to give him a lift to the start line in a private car because his team had left him high and dry????

That simply can't be true, can it?

If it is true, it's absolutely crazy, as the only real beneficiary would have been the leading rider of a rival team, the ONLY man capable of living with Contador in the hilly stuff.
The mind boggles....and the reprint of Bruyneel's book would have to be changed to "We might as well lose"!!

It would have pushed Mr Sulky up the GC though and Bertie out of it altogether.
Would JB really care?
If it is true then Armstrong should be in secure accomodation somewhere. There's competitiveness and there's blind obsession; bit scarey really :shock:

Bakunin

I read that article last night -- and I'm a big Contador fan -- but I just cannot seen it as being totally true.

Lance can be a jerk/unhappy (whatever), but they're not going to undermine the race leader like that.

Yet, I cannot figure out what the Hog wrote on that Twitter thing:

"One is not only judged by his successes but also by the obstacles he is able to overcome to achieve them."

Earthbound

SpaceJunk wrote:

Someone from Astana were surely just about to pick him up.

But they didn't.

Did they.

dennisn

This sounds like one for the Myth Busters.

SpaceJunk

Bakunin wrote:

I read that article last night -- and I'm a big Contador fan -- but I just cannot seen it as being totally true.

Lance can be a jerk/unhappy (whatever), but they're not going to undermine the race leader like that.

Yet, I cannot figure out what the Hog wrote on that Twitter thing:

"One is not only judged by his successes but also by the obstacles he is able to overcome to achieve them."

I think that was being discussed in the BW was too drunk and he shouldn't have used Twitter thread.

I read it as two ways:

1. For AC. Success = Tour Win. Obstacles = himself and LA
2. For LA. Success = Podium Finish. Obstacles = the nay-sayers who said he couldn't do it.

I'm sure some with interpret point 1, some point 2 and others with a completely different theory. I have no idea.

But it's a clever little riddle by the Hog.

MrChuck

Earthbound wrote:

SpaceJunk wrote:

Someone from Astana were surely just about to pick him up.

But they didn't.

Did they.

No (well, allegedly!), but you can't think that intent is absolutely irrelevant if you think this story says something about the state of things at Astana? And who knows what the intent was?

SpaceJunk

Earthbound wrote:

SpaceJunk wrote:

Someone from Astana were surely just about to pick him up.

But they didn't.

Did they.

But Earthbound; AC would've needed upwards of an hour warming up for TT. He was never going to miss the stage.

The incident may just have been dramatized; wouldn't be the first time media has down that.

The whole incident could be as simple as - AC arranged to be picked up at 2.00 am. He waits in lobby til 2.05. No one comes, he rings his brother in panic who takes him there.

He leaves at 2.30 pm, and although he wanted to be there by 2.15 he is 20 mins late - not enough to affect his prep - just enough to unsettle him, wondering WTF is happening.

Meanwhile his driver rocks up at 2.35 pm - over 30 minutes late, and deservedly gets his butt kicked by management.

AC believes it is all a conspiracy against him.

The above is nothing more than a theory based on absolutely nothing. Guess point I'm trying to make is that Astana would be stupid to do that to AC.

If you don't want him in Tour; poison him, slip an illegal drug into his drink.

Pokerface

If the story were true - why has it not been reported outside the Spanish media? And don't tell me Lance has THAT much control over the rest of the world's media....

pigman

Its the old people v task psychological profile of the driver mentality. Lance is so far on the task side, that the unsavoury "people" side is now showing its hand. This is no criticism, his drive and determination has helped him achieve his 7 wins. Some of the most influential people in history have been like this. The problem is knowing when to stop. this quote sums it up

Earthbound wrote:

[ His ego must be so massive it's blinding him to the inevitable defeats next year, defeats which his self centred personality simply can't cope with..

I'm thinking Hitler and Thatcher. Both were effective at what they set out to do, but their egotistic, megalomanic and tenacious nature became their downfall. The former ended up with a gun to his head, the latter crying at the doors of No. 10 when all and sundry had deserted them, concluding that their judgements were not those of rational minded people.

Churchill too had such a nature, but he took a step back at the correct itme when he was on top and now basks as a hero. . Lance shouldn't have come back. He now risks everything.

georgee

Don't forget this is the man who'd dump the woman who nursed hime through cancer to go and stick one up Cheryl Crow?

I'm sure contador was more than happy to tuck into a proper meal compared to three weeks of energy bars and EPO, with or without Lance.