Lance,not about the team ?

paulcuthbert

avalon wrote:

Bakunin wrote:

Armstrong's actions were weak, almost sad. He can actually learn a few things from Cavendish.

It actually takes away from what Armstrong accomplished in this race -- which is impressive. Third at 38 years old.

He better watch how he plays this -- there is a thin line between driven rider and big jerk.

A line he crossed many moons ago.
http://tinyurl.com/nzo7hc[/url]

Care to explain this picture???

teagar

paulcuthbert wrote:

avalon wrote:

Bakunin wrote:

Armstrong's actions were weak, almost sad. He can actually learn a few things from Cavendish.

It actually takes away from what Armstrong accomplished in this race -- which is impressive. Third at 38 years old.

He better watch how he plays this -- there is a thin line between driven rider and big jerk.

A line he crossed many moons ago.
http://tinyurl.com/nzo7hc[/url]

Care to explain this picture???

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2004/ju ... rdefrance1

Bakunin

Simon E wrote:

Bakunin wrote:

He better watch how he plays this -- there is a thin line between driven rider and big jerk.

Have you been asleep for the last 3 weeks? Perhaps you watched the Tour with the sound off to avoid the Lance-idolatry commentary.

Until Verbier every time he opened his mouth he tried to undermine Alberto, dominate the team and dictate tactics. 100% jerk. Only in the last few days has he reined in the bitchiness and actually given the team's no.1 some credit.

Today even the ITV team admitted he had not helped the team - they probably left it this long knowing he wouldn't talk to Matt Rendell if they said anything sooner. I thought his behaviour was most unsporting, but he's absolutely not any kind of team player. AC was probably relieved he was not there to spoil the party.

Simon -- I watched it and listened to it. And I agree with everything you wrote.

I was really referring to the spin he will put on this as we move forward. I'm sure Contador will be demonized like all the others -- Kimmage, Simeoni, Betsey Andreau, Walsh, Pound, etc. etc. etc.

paulcuthbert

I still don't get what the big deal is...

jackhammer111 - banned

He just made winning the Tour about as easy as it could have been. He made every correct move for Alberto that anyone could imagine and Alberto showed him and the team disrespect during the race on more than one occation making Lance work his tail off just to make the third rung of the podium. And you folks think he should have stuck around and poured Alberto's wine?
Lance was completely professional, made all the right moves, played super domestique and met press and answered questions until the reporters ran out of them day after day while Alberto either spoke a few terse words or avoided the press altogether.
Alberto is the one that has been a bad teammate. There things going on with the team that will come to light. Lance "bit his tongue" at least twice to avoid publicly humiliating Contador on his tactics. Astana is imploding. Vino and his mob are moving in and it would probably be better if Lance and Johan could just get out of there with their accomplishment in tact.
But they can't. Johan has a contract and Lance has made commitments for the foundation for the rest of the year.
That doesn't mean he has to be happy about it.
I'm a little sorry but not terribly surprised that Lance and Alberto don't get along. I think considering the strength of their personalities they've done a pretty good job of making their dislike for each other palatable. The rivalry made provide even more enjoyment for us in the future.
Considering Alberto's lack of respect on the road during the tour and his virtual silence about the importance of the team in helping him, my guess is that 3 or 4 of the guys there tonight wish they were elsewhere.

paulcuthbert

jackhammer111 wrote:

He just made winning the Tour about as easy as it could have been. He made every correct move for Alberto that anyone could imagine and Alberto showed him and the team disrespect during the race on more than one occation making Lance work his tail off just to make the third rung of the podium. And you folks think he should have stuck around and poured Alberto's wine?
Lance was completely professional, made all the right moves, played super domestique and met press and answered questions until the reporters ran out of them day after day while Alberto either spoke a few terse words or avoided the press altogether.
Alberto is the one that has been a bad teammate. There things going on with the team that will come to light. Lance "bit his tongue" at least twice to avoid publicly humiliating Contador on his tactics. Astana is imploding. Vino and his mob are moving in and it would probably be better if Lance and Johan could just get out of their with their accomplishemt in tact.
But they can't. Johan has a contract and Lance has made commitments for the foundation for the rest of the year.
That doesn't mean he has to be happy about it.
I'm a little sorry but not terribly surprised that Lance and Alberto don't get along. I think considering the strength of their personalities they've done a pretty good job of making their dislike for each other palatable. The rivalry made provide even more enjoyment for us in the future.
Considering Alberto's lack of respect on the road during the tour and his virtual silence about the importance of the team in helping him, my guess is that 3 or 4 of the guys there tonight wish they were elsewhere.

+1

bikindad

Its about the Lance. Its always been about the Lance.And the sucking up of the Versus crew.OMG.Money talks ,dont it??The true leader of Astana came through.Nice job Alberto

jackhammer111 - banned

bikindad wrote:

Its about the Lance. Its always been about the Lance.And the sucking up of the Versus crew.OMG.Money talks ,dont it??The true leader of Astana came through.Nice job Alberto

Alberto is a great talent. A gifted athelete.

But he showed only that. No leadership. No appreciation for those around him.

When Lance was talking about next year he said he sees some vulnerabilites in him and I think that issue is just what he's talking about.

Not to mention he's not the brightest bulb on the tree.

SpaceJunk

jackhammer111 wrote:

bikindad wrote:

Its about the Lance. Its always been about the Lance.And the sucking up of the Versus crew.OMG.Money talks ,dont it??The true leader of Astana came through.Nice job Alberto

Alberto is a great talent. A gifted athelete.

But he showed only that. No leadership. No appreciation for those around him.

When Lance was talking about next year he said he sees some vulnerabilites in him and I think that issue is just what he's talking about.

Not to mention he's not the brightest bulb on the tree.

Yes, LA will have to start pretty early with the mind games for next year. Let's be honest; it didn't work for '09.

AC showed he could handle the pressure when it counted. Stage 15 to Verbier; LA went AWOL and lost any chance of a Tour win.

BTW jackhammer; just remember these few simple facts:

- LA will be a year older, and a year further past his prime
- AC, the Schlecks, Nibali, Kreuziger and Co. will all be stronger riders in '09.

At least you've got 12 months to start working on your LA excuses.

aurelio_-_banned

paulcuthbert wrote:

I still don't get what the big deal is...

Perhaps this article might help your understanding...

---

Bicycling.com
July 23, 2004
A Tale Of Two Men
By Joe Lindsey, Contributing Writer

A tornado of bitter drug allegations has sandblasted Lance Armstrong as he preps for the Tour and announces a new sponsor. The trail to the truth is a twisty one full of tangents--only one man can reveal the true story.

What does it mean to be a patron of the Tour de France?

Is a patron simply the strongest rider of his era, or is there something more? In the true sense of the word, there is. A patron is not just a champion, but a godfather of sorts, a man who can dictate the moods and mores of the peloton, who can turn even a seemingly meaningless stage to his end. Typically, it is also a benefactor of sorts, a man whose magnanimity can elevate the dignity of the sport through observation of its most time-honored precepts, key among them sportsmanship.

We saw a patron on Tour today, but it was not a benevolent one.

Instead, the ugliest side broke out of the race's grandest champion today when Lance Armstrong bolted out of the pack to join Filippo Simeoni, who had just before broken free himself in an attempt to bridge up to the break.

On reaching the six-rider move, Simeoni said Armstrong looked over at him and smirked, "Bravo. Nice move." When Jose Vicente Garcia Acosta pleaded with Armstrong to drop back and let the break have an honest chance to continue, Armstrong reportedly told them he would gladly do that, under one condition: Simeoni was not to continue in the break, either. Faced with the choice of sinking the chances of six riders or his own, Simeoni drifted back to the pack, accompanied by Armstrong.

In between, the two riders talked, with Armstrong even briefly placing his hand on Simeoni's shoulder. "Armstrong and I spoke as the peloton was catching us but I prefer not to say what he said," Simeoni told BICYCLING's European Correspondent, James Startt, at the finish of stage 18. "It was too serious." Once back in the field, Armstrong spoke and laughed with numerous riders and at one point made the sign of zipping lips.

Simeoni is one of cycling's most anonymous riders. In an 11-year career he has had just one significant win, a stage of the 2000 Regio Tour, and as a career gregario, or helper, he has done little to distinguish himself good or bad. But two years ago Simeoni hurled himself into a most unwelcome and glaring spotlight when he became a key witness in the ongoing trial of Doctor Michele Ferrari, a by-turns acclaimed and notorious physician, who was being tried in the Italian province of Bologna for sporting fraud. Armstrong had publicly disclosed only months earlier that he was one of Ferrari's clients.

In his testimony before the Bologna court on February 12, 2002, Simeoni described how Ferrari showed him how to use the banned red blood cell booster EPO more effectively. Ferrari denied the charges, but Armstrong, in a carefully prepared interview broadcast on RAI TV in Italy on the eve of that year's Milan-San Remo World Cup opener, said that Simeoni had lied. He repeated the claim in an article in Le Monde in April 2003, saying that Simeoni was "a compulsive liar" and had doped long before meeting Ferrari.

In response, Simeoni decided to sue Armstrong for defamation, saying Armstrong's comments had hurt his career. In a lengthy interview published in the French sports daily l'Equipe during the first week of this year's Tour de France, Simeoni said he had been unfairly singled out by Armstrong. "[Lance] has tried to defend his own image vis-a-vis Ferrari, but I've never accused Armstrong personally, I would never do that," he said to the paper. The lawsuit, he said, was "not a question of money. If I'm awarded money, I'll give it to charity."

Ferrari, who runs a coaching service called 53x12 and continues to consult with Armstrong, should see his long-running and exhausting case finally go to trial later this summer after more than two years of preliminary hearings.

Although not the only cyclist to testify against Ferrari in court, Simeoni is the only active cyclist. Fabrizio Convalle, winner of a stage of the Tour of Italy in 1990, testified he had taken unknown products provided by Ferrari and an amateur cyclist, Carlo Cobalcini, said before the court that he paid Ferrari to treat him, treatments that included procurement of EPO. But neither Convalle nor Cobalcini are professional cyclists today. Axel Merckx and Gianluca Bortolami, two other clients of Ferrari, failed to appear before the court although their presence was requested.

Armstrong said today that he chased down Simeoni "to protect the interests of the peloton." On the face of it, it seems a bit disingenuous to suggest that attacking a rider who sat almost three hours down on overall time and didn't figure in any of the superlative jersey classifications was for the best. But Armstrong wasn't referring to the race.

"All he wants to do is destroy cycling, destroy the sport that pays him," Armstrong said of the reason for his actions. In his phrasing, Armstrong--intentionally or not--recalled Greg LeMond's statement last week, when the three-time winner said in an interview with a French newspaper, "The problem with Armstrong is that you're either a liar or you're out to destroy cycling," speaking of how Armstrong deals with riders who allege that doping in the sport is widespread.

"When I went back to the group I can't say how many riders said thank you very much," said Armstrong of the reception given him by the other riders. "[Simeoni] is not a rider that the peloton likes to be up front because all he does is attack the peloton and say bad things about other riders and the group in general." That may be, but the peloton was content enough on Stage 9 to let Simeoni get 10 minutes up the road at one point with Euskaltel's Inigo Landaluze. The pair were caught just 100 meters before the stage finish, but not because of any particular animosity toward either rider; there were important sprint points on offer. As well, Postal did no work to bring back the pair and Armstrong, if he was perturbed by the events, showed no sign of it. Nine stages later, it was a different story.

Simeoni, though, has suffered since he testified. Rupert Guinness, the veteran Australian journalist who covers the sport for various publications, wrote in his story on VeloNews.com that Domina Vacanze team leader Mario Cipollini didn't want Simeoni on the Tour team, according to DV director Vincenzo Santoni.

Santoni didn't seem impressed with Cipollini or how Simeoni was treated by some riders when he did drift back from the break, and defended his rider to Italian RAI TV.

"We had to plead with to stay in the race," Guinness quotes Santoni as saying. "He is someone who makes sacrifices for the team."

Further defending his actions, Armstrong said that part of the problem lies with the press. "The problem with journalism is that you guys don't research the story. Simeoni - there is a long story there. All they want to write about is part of the story."

Simeoni had doped before he worked with Ferrari; Simeoni admits it himself. And he won a reduction of his sentence in exchange for his testimony, from two years to six months and, eventually to four on the decision of the Court for Arbitration in Sport. He is certainly no angel, and his testimony should be examined with the same scrutiny and care as that of any other material witness to such an important case.

But Armstrong declined to say what else might remain in the full story.

He seems mystified that anyone could question his relationship with Ferrari, despite the fact that doping allegations have dogged Ferrari since at least 1996, when Sandro Donati, who blew the lid off EPO use in pro cycling with a firebomb of a report that implicated Ferrari's mentor, Francesco Conconi, testified against Ferrari in one of the good doctor's first doping trials.

On Friday, Armstrong took a needless risk to emphasize a personal point. Laurent Jalabert, now retired, wrote on his diary on the Tour web site that in his opinion Armstrong had gone up the road to send Simeoni a message: "You'll never win a race again."

And Armstrong's seemingly self-satisfied air on returning to the peloton--the "zip the lips" gesture and so on--seems to back up that premise, whatever his comment about looking out for the peloton (which, probably, can look out quite well for itself). But what does Armstrong really gain from publicly pursuing such an ugly agenda?

Armstrong's comment that other riders supported him is ugly as well. For one, it underlines that cycling still has an omerta, or a code of silence. While the rider's union might be a laughable one from the standpoint of labor relations with team management or the UCI, it clearly enforces rigid conformist behavior among its own. Simeoni's ostracization is just another sad chapter in a book that includes sections on Jesus Manzano, Christophe Bassons, Jerome Chiotti, Paul Kimmage and any other pro cyclist who has the temerity to say publicly that not only did he dope, but others do too, even if no names are used.

Simeoni will very likely not be a professional cyclist next year. He has, after all, bit the hand that fed him, pissed off the world's most powerful cyclist and appears to have few allies in his court. Perhaps he can get a ride with Amore e Vita, the controversial Italian team which is known for throwing last-chance contracts at reformed dopers (last week, they offered just such a gig to David Millar, who was sacked by his Cofidis team).

Bike racing will probably always have doping of some kind, and there will be many riders, even clean ones, who want to protect their earning power ignoring its problems, saying "we do more than anyone to combat doping," and so on.

But this issue speaks to something else besides the sport's unhealthy little addiction; it speaks to Armstrong. What does it take for this man to be satisfied? And how are we, fans of the sport, to reconcile two utterly adverse sides of a champion? How can a man who has stared death in the face, who knows the value of his own wonderful life and has shown such remarkable, limitless and genuine compassion to his fellow cancer survivors, be so needlessly petty? From here, it looks like hate, pure and simple.

Armstrong now has six Tours, $16 million plus a year, Sheryl freaking Crow, his incredible benefit to the sport and to the cancer community and the adoration of millions of fans. Is that success so insubstantial that he must go out of his way to make someone else fail?

It's a sad epitaph to what should have been a perfect Tour for Armstrong, one where his dominant performance and sublime form confirmed him as the best racer of his era, and one of the best of all time.

I wrote weeks ago that Lance Armstrong had two sides--the public Armstrong you see on television and in his books, and a colder, spiteful one that is largely private. I wrote that if Armstrong lost this Tour de France that we might see that the private one was more his true self.

Ironically, it is instead while winning it that it has come to the fore.

richard wants a baum

I think this thread perfectly demonstrates how deeply the lines are dug. The Fans will always have an excuse for LA and the rest will never accept them. For what its worth ( i really dont care much either way with LA) i think it is pretty bad form to not go to a celebration dinner for a winning team mate. As far as Contador showing disrespect for Armstrong by attacking, could you imagine the same being Armstrong back when he won his 7?

SpaceJunk

richard wants a baum wrote:

I think this thread perfectly demonstrates how deeply the lines are dug. The Fans will always have an excuse for LA and the rest will never accept them. For what its worth ( i really dont care much either way with LA) i think it is pretty bad form to not go to a celebration dinner for a winning team mate. As far as Contador showing disrespect for Armstrong by attacking, could you imagine the same being Armstrong back when he won his 7?

Yeah I think you're right RIchard. I don't hate LA as such; the media saturation of his image/name annoys the heck out of me though.

Sidepoint; watching the Tour last night; my wife grabs the remote during an ad break on SBS and flicks to You, Me, Dupree. Neither of us had seen the movie before. But we've been literally watching it for 15 seconds and LA makes a cameo appearance! Couldn't believe it.

Personally, I take my hat off to him. 7 Tours, whether he rode them clean or not is an outstanding effort.

Conversely, the guy had made a lot of mistakes in the way he has acted and treated other people. And I find it quite amusing to see people try and defend/justify everything he does - rightly or wrongly.

To not celebrate AC, win as a complete team is, I think disrespectful, inexcusable and highlights how pathetic, childish and egotistical he can be.

No doubt there are those who believe they can justify his actions, but it's a shame "The World's Greatest Champion"* couldn't show more respect every now and then.



* Copyrighted by John Wilcockson

SpaceJunk

paulcuthbert wrote:

I still don't get what the big deal is...

Okay. Let's see if this helps:

1. Pro Bike Racing is a team sport
2. AC won the racing rider for Astana
3. Astana was the Teams category

There are 3 reasons for why Astana should be celebrating - see Points 1, 2 and 3.

LA didn't just snub AC, he snubbed the team.

jay12

maybe Astana team fell out with him because something happened and he got really pissed off that he wouldn't even bother going on twitter

jamlala

SpaceJunk wrote:

paulcuthbert wrote:

I still don't get what the big deal is...

Okay. Let's see if this helps:

1. Pro Bike Racing is a team sport
2. AC won the racing rider for Astana
3. Astana was the Teams category

There are 3 reasons for why Astana should be celebrating - see Points 1, 2 and 3.

LA didn't just snub AC, he snubbed the team.

Which he is no longer a member of.......

Self publicist, arrogant, doper, whatever......he defeated cancer which is remarkabel in itself, but MAINLY he is doing huge amounts to raise money and the profile of the disease worldwide. If it raises his name to new levels then how can that EVER be a bad thing?

And 3rd in the TdF is no mean feat at 37. All sports/teams have their mavericks and thats what makes sport more appealing......

singlespeedexplosif

LA didn't just snub AC, he snubbed the team.
precisely. After 7 years of expecting everyone else to be a team player and give their all for an Armstrong victory, he just can't handle being asked to do that for someone else. My 2yr old is less childish...

iainf72

JamLala wrote:

Which he is no longer a member of.......

Self publicist, arrogant, doper, whatever......he defeated cancer which is remarkabel in itself,

He was still a member of the team yesterday. Who is he going to ride for in Ireland I wonder?

Also, didn't his doctors defeat cancer rather than him.

liversedge

I'm loving this

Is that two fingers for each win or aimed at someone else perhaps ?

SpaceJunk

liversedge wrote:

I'm loving this

LOL

Well they do say winners are grinners.

Looks like a bit of coveting going on too.

Firecrakka

Hasn't it already been established many times and in many threads....
Lance Armstrong is a bullying douche bag. Why does this surprise anyone?

He announced he was leaving Astana only when it was obvious he had no chance of winning. Showing zero respect for his team.
So why would you think now the tour is over he would show any class and suddenly become a team player?
He reminds me of a sooky lil' kid that when given out, takes his bat and ball and goes home.



Like I said...Douche Bag.

skavanagh.bikeradar

I think you could easily concot a montage of picture telling a similar story from this years tour. I thought he looked like a man being held at gunpoint to have fun when the champagne was handed out from the team car - they just didn't seem pleased with their two victories (individual GC and team). Armstrong, I suspect, knows he can't beat Contador. But he does know how to hold a grudge and he will create a team that will do everythign it can to stop Contador. When does Andy Schlecks Saxo contract end?

le_patron

Excellent drama, let the power struggle continue. That pesky Spaniard didn't follow the script and seeing LA v AC next year on different teams will again be compulsive viewing.

donaldinho

JamLala wrote:

SpaceJunk wrote:

paulcuthbert wrote:

I still don't get what the big deal is...

Okay. Let's see if this helps:

1. Pro Bike Racing is a team sport
2. AC won the racing rider for Astana
3. Astana was the Teams category

There are 3 reasons for why Astana should be celebrating - see Points 1, 2 and 3.

LA didn't just snub AC, he snubbed the team.

Which he is no longer a member of.......

Self publicist, arrogant, doper, whatever......he defeated cancer which is remarkabel in itself, but MAINLY he is doing huge amounts to raise money and the profile of the disease worldwide. If it raises his name to new levels then how can that EVER be a bad thing?

Would you not agree it might be better for his cancer foundation to act in a more inspirational manner?

The way Vande Velde worked for Wiggins or the way Andy Schleck gave up the chance of a win on the Ventoux to wait for his brother... selfless acts like that sit a bit better with the concept of a charitable foundation than making bitchy comments to the press and spitting the dummy.

He could have still achieved his third and raised awareness without acting is such an petulant, unsportmanlike fashion.

jamlala

Firecrakka wrote:

Hasn't it already been established many times and in many threads....
Lance Armstrong is a bullying douche bag. Why does this surprise anyone?

He announced he was leaving Astana only when it was obvious he had no chance of winning. Showing zero respect for his team.
So why would you think now the tour is over he would show any class and suddenly become a team player?
He reminds me of a sooky lil' kid that when given out, takes his bat and ball and goes home.



Like I said...Douche Bag.

Do you really think he decided he was leaving AND set up a new team in week 2 of a TdF once he realised he wasn't going to win? It was already decided weeks ago I'll bet. Nothing happens fast in business these days. There were always 2 x No 1's in Astana, and one had to lose out.

Ratkilla

Firecrakka wrote:

Like I said...Douche Bag.

I don't know what a douche bag is but I know what a Baw Bag is and the above picture proves that LA is a Baw Bag.

Grow up Lance.

jamlala

iainf72 wrote:

JamLala wrote:

Which he is no longer a member of.......

Self publicist, arrogant, doper, whatever......he defeated cancer which is remarkabel in itself,

He was still a member of the team yesterday. Who is he going to ride for in Ireland I wonder?

Also, didn't his doctors defeat cancer rather than him.

Being picky Iain. Yes I'm sure his Dr's defeated cancer, but his body would have had to have played some part! Unconsciously of course.

dulldave

JamLala wrote:

Firecrakka wrote:

Hasn't it already been established many times and in many threads....
Lance Armstrong is a bullying douche bag. Why does this surprise anyone?

He announced he was leaving Astana only when it was obvious he had no chance of winning. Showing zero respect for his team.
So why would you think now the tour is over he would show any class and suddenly become a team player?
He reminds me of a sooky lil' kid that when given out, takes his bat and ball and goes home.



Like I said...Douche Bag.

Do you really think he decided he was leaving AND set up a new team in week 2 of a TdF once he realised he wasn't going to win? It was already decided weeks ago I'll bet. Nothing happens fast in business these days. There were always 2 x No 1's in Astana, and one had to lose out.

If you read what he said you'll notice he's talking about the announcement.

fraserq

wonderful athlete, great ambassador for cancer, shallow human being.

wicked

Please do not drag the cancer thing in to somehow prove that the guy is some kind of super human. Fact is people tragically die from cancer every day and some of them have fought it with every ounce of strength they have to no avail.
LA's palmares is more than capable of speaking for him without introducing something that has nothing to do with sport.

jamlala

dulldave wrote:

JamLala wrote:

Firecrakka wrote:

Hasn't it already been established many times and in many threads....
Lance Armstrong is a bullying douche bag. Why does this surprise anyone?

He announced he was leaving Astana only when it was obvious he had no chance of winning. Showing zero respect for his team.
So why would you think now the tour is over he would show any class and suddenly become a team player?
He reminds me of a sooky lil' kid that when given out, takes his bat and ball and goes home.



Like I said...Douche Bag.

Do you really think he decided he was leaving AND set up a new team in week 2 of a TdF once he realised he wasn't going to win? It was already decided weeks ago I'll bet. Nothing happens fast in business these days. There were always 2 x No 1's in Astana, and one had to lose out.

If you read what he said you'll notice he's talking about the announcement.

Point taken Dave - my apologies.