Contador - mmmm I'm not sure about him
Comments
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JonGinge wrote:
There's another spanish chap with the initials AC: Antonio Colom. But he's clean as a whistle so it's probably not him, either :roll:cswebbo wrote:Who is 'AC same as JJ'(-Bella Jorg Jascke-confessed puerto doper) on the Puerto files if it is not Alberto?
Never road with Sainz though I think?___________________
Strava is not Zen.0 -
Contador can't be doping, he's a part of the new clean, Bruyneel-run Astana. Either that or the whole team is suspect.0
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Are we getting close to the reason for long socks?Dan0
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TBH, he is a remarkable cyclist whatever he is on. Landis' solo effort that day similarly.Dan0
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flattythehurdler wrote:TBH, he is a remarkable cyclist whatever he is on. Landis' solo effort that day similarly.
Whoa! Landis was innocent, it said so in his book!Pictures are better than words because some words are big and hard to understand.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34335188@N07/3336802663/0 -
Good point about the long socks....0
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....I never thought of it before flattythehurdler pointed it out. Compression stockings or 'thromboembolic destroyers!' are for people who are coagulopathic i.e. those with a propensity to clot. One reason for this is if the blood is particularly viscous. What could cause the blood of an elite cyclist to be viscous enough to form a clot? Dehydration, injury....?
I remember hearing stories (vicious rumours) of riders hanging upside down. Maybe it's for the same reason?
Alternatively they may help with muscle soreness.
So they probably don't need masseurs anymore.0 -
He has been dominant, but is only 4.11 ahead of Andy. That's not a huge amount in Tour history, and most of it is TTing. How heavy is Evans?
I must admit I did have bad feelings cross my mind, and I am suspicious of almost everything nowadays, but short of riding the Tour myself I can't be sure any of the riders are clean. Actually, I am on a banned substance for a chronic condition. So I'm not clean either. Bu99er!0 -
Wiggins apparently appeared for a newspaper interview the other day wearing compression stockings, which the journalist didn’t question him about, but did wonder about in the newspaper article when the interview was published next day.dshooman wrote:....I never thought of it before flattythehurdler pointed it out. Compression stockings or 'thromboembolic destroyers!' are for people who are coagulopathic i.e. those with a propensity to clot. One reason for this is if the blood is particularly viscous.
Last weekend I read the AG2R team all wear compression stockings for an hour or so after the end of each stage. The medical reason was briefly stated but I forget what it was, because my mind dwelled more on what the Milram team supposedly do after each stage – they each have a 10-15 min shower with the water only just above freezing.
AG2R also have a female psychologist visit them 1-2 times a week. She is also a pretty good cyclist and even trains with them occasionally. Psychologists are used in other sports to motivate, but one rarely hears of them in cycling.0 -
knedlicky wrote:Wiggins apparently appeared for a newspaper interview the other day wearing compression stockings, which the journalist didn’t question him about, but did wonder about in the newspaper article when the interview was published next day.
recovery aid, for a more extreme example see here - http://www.slipstreamsports.com/2008/07 ... ery-weapon0 -
knedlicky wrote:
Last weekend I read the AG2R team all wear compression stockings for an hour or so after the end of each stage. .
A lot of the first team at my hockey club(a high level team) have been wearing compresion stockings after games. It was introduced by an Olympic player we had. Aids recovery of the muscles apparently. Certainly has nothing to do with doping as someone tried to imply.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Aurelio wrote:
Who has said that he has never given a sample, or that no testing has ever been done?georgee wrote:So he never provided a blood sample, so everytime they get tested blood is drawn, and no one has ever tested this? I just find this weird.
Problem is, even if you do test a blood sample, this doesn't mean that you will find anything if the rider is doping. For example, 'micro doses' of Epo can maintain one's blood haemocrit level at an 'optimal' level and be undetectable as little as 12 hours after the drug was taken.
The effects of microdose recombinant human erythropoietin regimens in athletes
This study appraised the veracity of claims that athletes can evade doping controls by injecting microdoses of recombinant human erythropoietin (rHuEPO), which rapidly disappear from the circulation. We confirmed that microdosing can reduce the window of detection to as little as 12-18 hours post-injection, suggesting that authorities must adopt appropriate counter measures.
As expected high dose rHuEPO treatment rapidly elevated Hb concentrations within ~2 weeks (140 to 166 g/L; 148 to 174 g/L; subjects 1 and 2, respectively). We found that it was possible to maintain elevated Hb values using microdoses of rHuEPO. After 3 weeks of the microdose regimen Hb concentrations were still 164 g/L and 170 g/L respectively (and 164 g/L and 162 g/L 1 week after all injections ceased).
...Our results show that it is conceivable for athletes to maintain illicit rHuEPO doping even during multiday endurance events when competitors may be tested at the end of each day (ie at 24 hour intervals).
http://www.haematologica.org/cgi/reprint/91/8/1143
That study is 3 years old. We've been seeing micro dosing sanctions out the ying yang since then.
Then there a obvious problems in the way the study was done. "Initially red cell production was rapidly accelerated in both subjects using high doses of rHuEPO (~260 IU/kg injections on days 0, 2, 4, 7, 9 and 11) in conjunction with a single intravenous iron treatment (100 mg), with the goal to elevate hemoglobin (Hb) concentration to approximately 170 g/L."
In the case of Lance, and most likely all the contenders that the Passport program has been watching closest, there was absolutely no way he or others could have done that before the tour. They tested him about 40 times before the tour. They never know when the tests are going to happen. There's not longer any 11 day period someone could safely use to ramp up their red cell production. That's why there are whereabouts rules and surprise tests.
The study claims "microdosing can reduce the window of detection to as little as 12-18 hours post-injection" As little as... it's completely misleading. If you look at the chart you see three cases where the isoforms were lower than the testing threshold (which obviously is lower now) at 20 hours or less and I count 16 cases where they would have tested positive.
What idiot of a rider would like those odds.
Not to mention I know of at least 1 time during the tour where both Lance and Alberto were tested after a stage and again in the morning.
What were these athletes doing for 3 weeks. Neither a regional level triathele nor a national level distance runner competes in 3 week events. To compare these 2 who may or may not continue training for their one day events during the three weeks to riders doing arguably the hardest endurance event on the planet is junk science. Ok, he doesn't actually compare them to tour riders but that's certainly what Aurelio is doing by introducing this study in this place at this time.0 -
There seem to be three cyclists with links to Operation Puerto (AS by family admittedly) that ride for top teams in Le Tour. They have been the outstanding performers of the third week and have ridden away from the opposition as I expect them to today. It is a distinct possibility that they will fill the three podium slots come Paris.
Anyone not questioning that rather coincidental situation would have to be incredibly naive in my opinion.0 -
Some plausible considerations:cswebbo wrote:How someone weighing about 60kg can produce the power required to ride at over 50kmph for 50 minutes in a tt after the previous days mountains, and beat Cancellara etc whilst doing so?
- Different environmental conditions, in particular wind, but other elements come into play as well - the rides were undertaken a considerable time apart so comparing them directly would be foolhardy - better to compare rides undertaken within relative time proximity (which is why the TT rider order is the way it is - an early rider may take a stage win with highly favourable conditions early in the day but that won't threaten the GC leaders)
- different drafting benefit from lead vehicles
- better pacing strategy employed by one rider over another, on a course with a Cat 3 climb it makes quite a difference
- A superior W/kg ratio for the climbing section, combined with a world class W/CdA ratio not that dissimilar to Cancellara
- The motivation of performing well in the final TT when wearing the yellow jersey
- Fresher legs from not having to take turns, pacing or be in break aways in the week(s) preceding - remember that both riders rode over the same mountains.
Just because a rider is a lightweight doesn't mean they can't be very slick through the air for the power they produce. I coach a 60kg rider who set a new world masters hour record this year - a distance of more than 48km at 5W/kg.0 -
Do you really belive that? In the past Armstrong's teams have had plenty of prior warning of tests. (See below. Of course the Armstrong-centric press printed everything Manzano said, apart from the bit that incriminated USP /Discovery). Also, how about Armstrong taking 30 minutes to shower, or the UCI testers drinking coffee for an hour before they are allowed to take any samples? Such behaviour gives plenty of time for the samples to be manipulated.jackhammer111 wrote:They tested him about 40 times before the tour. They never know when the tests are going to happen.
"I want to give you an example, something I've never spoken about except to the police up until now. It concerns one of the four Spanish laboratories accredited by the UCI. This laboratory, which is in charge of sending the UCI ‘vampires' to take the samples during the Vuelta and other races, is the same lab that's in charge of the doctor visits to the cyclists, they follow the cyclists and give them the stamp of approval on their licenses. The owner of this clinic, a renowned hematologist, called Walter Viru, is one of the doctors for Kelme, to alert them the day before the UCI vampires were coming to take the samples from the cyclists. And he did the same thing with Del Moral, the doctor for the U.S. Postal team and then Discovery, a good friend of his."
http://www.multriman.com/news/riendechange.pdf0 -
Out of interest, who has been busted who said they were micro-dosing with EPO?jackhammer111 wrote:That study is 3 years old. We've been seeing micro dosing sanctions out the ying yang since then...Not to mention I know of at least 1 time during the tour where both Lance and Alberto were tested after a stage and again in the morning.
In any case Epo is pretty old hat. Armstrong might well be 'micro dosing’ with autologous blood, something that is even harder to detect than his 'old school' technique of injecting "800 ml of packed cells".
Armstrong also has a long time to prepare for his comeback during his 'retirement'. He had plenty of time to dope to the gills whilst 'retired'. (He was certainly planning his comeback for a long time and working out both on the bike and off - witness those naked torso 'bodybuilding' shots he released). Once he was officially making a comeback he could have adopted a more controlled and harder to detect 'program', with his 'parameters' already at a near optimal level and freezer full of 'top ups' ready to use.0 -
aurelio wrote:
Do you really belive that? In the past Armstrong's teams have had plenty of prior warning of tests. (See below. Of course the Armstrong-centric press printed everything Manzano said, apart from the bit that incriminated USP /Discovery). Also, how about Armstrong taking 30 minutes to shower, or the UCI testers drinking coffee for an hour before they are allowed to take any samples? Such behaviour gives plenty of time for the samples to be manipulated.jackhammer111 wrote:They tested him about 40 times before the tour. They never know when the tests are going to happen.
"I want to give you an example, something I've never spoken about except to the police up until now. It concerns one of the four Spanish laboratories accredited by the UCI. This laboratory, which is in charge of sending the UCI ‘vampires' to take the samples during the Vuelta and other races, is the same lab that's in charge of the doctor visits to the cyclists, they follow the cyclists and give them the stamp of approval on their licenses. The owner of this clinic, a renowned hematologist, called Walter Viru, is one of the doctors for Kelme, to alert them the day before the UCI vampires were coming to take the samples from the cyclists. And he did the same thing with Del Moral, the doctor for the U.S. Postal team and then Discovery, a good friend of his."
http://www.multriman.com/news/riendechange.pdf
One minute you sound like a knowledgable fan, the next you sound like someone who hasn't been paying attention for years.
The way they have tested Lance during the comeback is widely known.
The other thing you mention says accredited by UCI. Sounds like they were doing testing for the licence issued by Spain. Competely different issue than competition testing.
Wha't the date on that newspaper? The mention of Discovery and Kelme makes it years old.
Even if you think he could have messed with a urine sample on that one occasion, they took blood and hair that day too.
People who believe the diabolical Lance has always had foolproof ways to dope are like the people that think the moon landings are fake, or that Obama is not an American citizen. They have an answer for every bit of proof you give them, yet they are wrong. And since it's always fairly easy to come up with conspiritorial alternatives, there's no proof you can give that will change their belief. It's become like a religion. A bunch of people getting together and repeating the same things over and over to each other to reinforce belief. It's self perpetuating and outsiders are attacked by the group and driven off.
The claim Lance Armstrong diabolically doped his way to 7 tour wins and now to a 09 podium without getting caught is an extraordinary claim.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs and extraordinary proof of this claim does not exist. (the 99 samples don't validate the entire claim.)0 -
aurelio wrote:
Out of interest, who has been busted who said they were micro-dosing with EPO?jackhammer111 wrote:That study is 3 years old. We've been seeing micro dosing sanctions out the ying yang since then...Not to mention I know of at least 1 time during the tour where both Lance and Alberto were tested after a stage and again in the morning.
In any case Epo is pretty old hat. Armstrong might well be 'micro dosing’ with autologous blood, something that is even harder to detect than his 'old school' technique of injecting "800 ml of packed cells".
Armstrong also has a long time to prepare for his comeback during his 'retirement'. He had plenty of time to dope to the gills whilst 'retired'. (He was certainly planning his comeback for a long time and working out both on the bike and off - witness those naked torso 'bodybuilding' shots he released). Once he was officially making a comeback he could have adopted a more controlled and harder to detect 'program', with his 'parameters' already at a near optimal level and freezer full of 'top ups' ready to use.
Have you been paying attention? Even in the study you referred to in your previous post, which is year old, they detected micro doses 16 out of 20 times.
In that same study the subjects were given "high dose HuEPO treatment" for 2 weeks to get their levels up. It is absoluty impossible to do high dose EPO or CERA anymore without getting caught every single time they test. There's also no safe 2 week window to do high dosing.
It's obvious that the busts since last years tour have been micro doses, most likely involving keeping stored blood "fresh", with maybe the odd attempt to use small doses to keep your levels up in a stage race, where they would naturally deteriorate.
UCI of course won't come out and say this and they are correct not to do so.0 -
After reading alot in the last couple of years about the subject of doping among the top guys, my position was of cynicism but also apathy in that it will always go on just so long as big money in sport is involved. I believe Wiggo is clean. This changes alot when using that as a benchmark in this year's Tour against riders such as LA and Contador. Its quite possible that the latter are genuinely capable of being better than Wiggo and be clean.
A few things that now stand out in my mind:
1. Where does this leave Greg Lemond and his comments about the rate at which the elite pros are climbing at now and the 'impossible' VO2 max levels that would necessitate this?
2. It does still seem a little odd that Contador can time trial quite as well as he does.
3. We have not seen any utterly dominant riding that has in the past IMO been 'suspect' e.g. Ullrich's demolition at Andorra in 1997 at the Tour or Riis at Hautacam.0 -
zammmmo wrote:After reading alot in the last couple of years about the subject of doping among the top guys, my position was of cynicism but also apathy in that it will always go on just so long as big money in sport is involved. I believe Wiggo is clean. This changes alot when using that as a benchmark in this year's Tour against riders such as LA and Contador. Its quite possible that the latter are genuinely capable of being better than Wiggo and be clean.
A couple of things that now stand out in my mind:
1. Where does this leave Greg Lemond and his comments about the rate at which the elite pros are climbing at now and the 'impossible' VO2 max levels that would necessitate this?
2. It does still seem a little odd that Contador can time trial quite as well as he does.
3. We have not seen any utterly dominant riding that has in the past IMO been 'suspect' e.g. Ullrich's demolition at Andorra in 1997 at the Tour.
zammmmo - re: your second point on AC and his TT abilities.
This subject has been done to death for years. A lot of people act surprised about how well he TT. But he always has.
Even this thread gives, I think, some pretty sound reasons for why a '60 kg climber' can be such an effective TT'ler.
Alex_Simmons/RST'd comments a few posts back are quite logical.0 -
Seems odd, yes, but not impossible I agree, even when he is getting the better of the likes of specialists like Cancellara AND had worse conditions like at the Annecy time trial. Look at Levi - similar build but also excellent against the watch. Contador might well just be an out-and-out freak of nature, even among his elite peers. The implication from my original post is that I feel more positive about the top guys being clean than before.0
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I think we can try all we like to guess, we're not going to know for a while. If he is on something, it's not detectable right now, so we'll have to wait until just before next years tour for some big revelations.0
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merckx was light yrs ahead of his peers even given he along with the rest were pill poppers it indicates that their are natural cycle genuises out there...
what ever "preparation" merckx had it wasn't in the same league as today's lot but he still stood out head and shoulders above the rest...
I reckon contadors dodgy but talent is very much part of equation..."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
aurelio wrote:
In any case Epo is pretty old hat. Armstrong might well be 'micro dosing’ with autologous blood, something that is even harder to detect than his 'old school' technique of injecting "800 ml of packed cells".
Armstrong also has a long time to prepare for his comeback during his 'retirement'. He had plenty of time to dope to the gills whilst 'retired'. (He was certainly planning his comeback for a long time and working out both on the bike and off - witness those naked torso 'bodybuilding' shots he released). Once he was officially making a comeback he could have adopted a more controlled and harder to detect 'program', with his 'parameters' already at a near optimal level and freezer full of 'top ups' ready to use.
Forgot this one. I need to address it lest anyone think it makes any sense whatsoever.
What kind if doping do you think he could have done in the years gone that have any relevence to his fitness now? Steroids? HGH? Climbers have enough trouble with unneeded body mass without adding muscle with steriods. Plus, when you quit using them, your hormone levels come back down and you loss the mass. Lance has struggled to lose every last gram, expecially in upper body mass. Blood doping in the years off also make no sense because it's hard to keep gains for weeks, let alone years.
the "bodybulding" shots make him look bigger than he was first of all. Then it's known that if you build muscle from weight training, you lose it when you stop. He of course stopped upper body training so he wouldn't have to drag the extra mass uphill.
on the issue of frozen blood. From a logistical standpoint, transfusion requires the rider to surreptitiously transport frozen RBCs, thaw and re-infuse them in a non-clinical setting and then dispose of the medical paraphernalia. The French police spent 3 hours searching the Astana truck the other day.
Also there are new ways to detect transfusions in Passport. Quoting Ashenden.
"compare the numbers of mature and immature RBCs in an athlete's circulation. If a high number of mature RBCs is not accompanied by a high number of immature RBCs—called reticulocytes--it suggests that the mature RBCs were artificially introduced by transfusion."0 -
I don't know about you but personally if I was expecting a delivery of red blood cells part way through le tour I wouldn't keep them in a big bus with my team name on the side
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ShinyHelmut wrote:I don't know about you but personally if I was expecting a delivery of red blood cells part way through le tour I wouldn't keep them in a big bus with my team name on the side
I was just about to say the same. As someone above said, for all the talking on this forum, only a positive test is worth anything at the end of the day. Until then Contador is the man.0 -
zammmmo wrote:After reading alot in the last couple of years about the subject of doping among the top guys, my position was of cynicism but also apathy in that it will always go on just so long as big money in sport is involved. I believe Wiggo is clean. This changes alot when using that as a benchmark in this year's Tour against riders such as LA and Contador. Its quite possible that the latter are genuinely capable of being better than Wiggo and be clean.
Also consider that Contador was evidently days away from leaving Astana and going to Garmin as the Astana payment issued was coming to a head. Garmin probably had already tested him by that point and there's no way they have touched him with a ten foot pole if they were suspicious of anything. He may yet go to Garmin for next year.
I called this stuff on the climb pseudoscience from the first time I read it. Now there's more. "you cannot use isolated performances, lacking control over variables, to infer doping.".zammmmo wrote:A few things that now stand out in my mind:
1. Where does this leave Greg Lemond and his comments about the rate at which the elite pros are climbing at now and the 'impossible' VO2 max levels that would necessitate this?
http://www.sportsscientists.com/
Who really knows what "upper phsyological limits" really are? People go faster, throw harder, hit harder, kick further, jump higher, swim faster ect ect. all the time.
As has been said, he's always been a great time trialer. So was Lance. And Andy Schleck just did the best time trial of his life. Greg did one at 54.545 km/h (34.52 mph). Should we suspect him?zammmmo wrote:2. It does still seem a little odd that Contador can time trial quite as well as he does.zammmmo wrote:3. We have not seen any utterly dominant riding that has in the past IMO been 'suspect' e.g. Ullrich's demolition at Andorra in 1997 at the Tour or Riis at Hautacam.
It would have been interesting to see if Lance, Andy, and Alberto would have been within a minute going in today. We didn't get to see a real show of what their hardest effort is.0
