Contador - mmmm I'm not sure about him

Mettan

stueyh wrote:

Or is it a case that they have some kind of magic Harry Potter potion that is invisible to laboratory tests.

Peakraider

iainf72 wrote:

Why he's always been good at TT'ing is a different debate entirely.

Exactly.

But being a good TTer -- even the best in Spain -- shouldn't make him better than Cancellara, especially after comfortably dominating a climbing stage the day before.

Peakraider

Harry Hill wrote:

I thought the referees car, which was determined to get past the astana team car in that final 200m of straight to the finish, bumped alberto as he crossed the line. i'm sure I'm mistaken cos someone would have spotted it aside from me.

Yes it did, and Contador reacted to it.

feedbackdestroyer

Yes but perhaps Cancellara is only best at TT when he doesn't have five category 1 climbs the day before in prepration.

Just stop the cynical sniping - it's ugly and not merited

Peakraider

Earthbound wrote:

I still find it bewildering that the OP can say - I don't believe that Contador (by far the peloton's best natural climber) can be such a good climber, he must be on drugs. It's like sayng I can't believe Cav, the fastest man in the world, can win sprints, he must be on drugs. Or I can't believe that Armstrong, a self centered egomaniac, can be such a self centred egomaniac, he must be on drugs.

Well somebody's got to be a good climber, and if it's not a guy who is so obviously built from the ground up, to be an excellent climber, then who is going to be a climber? A chunkily built Texan

As Kleber pointed out, Contador has ALWAYS been an A1 time trialler. He was Spanish under 23 champion at the age of 19!!! His power to weight is excellent because (1) His weight is so low (UCI really need to bring a minimum rider weight to even things up) and (2) his power output is so high. Added to that his physique must give him a drag coefficient of about 0.15 (his TT position is perfect).

I guess some people simply have a tabloid mentality, that urges them to detract and declaim anyone who achieves any level of success.

Please.

Your point two is where the issue lies.

Tabloid mentality? He's creaming everyone, including known dopers. He rocks up a week before the Giro and wins it. His name is in the Puerto files. His mentor was Manolo Saiz. He's linked with Fuentes. He rides for Bruyneel. And then he murders everyone -- including TT experts -- after dominating a brutal mountain stage the day before. Oh, and after massacring previous VAM records on Verbier, when his VO2 could have been around 99.

Head. Of. Sand. Pull. Out. Your. The.

Peakraider

stueyh wrote:

Hold up a second chaps, they've all been tested by the docs pretty religiously.

Is it not a case now of just wait and see? Or is it a case that they have some kind of magic Harry Potter potion that is invisible to laboratory tests.

Yeah, coz the tests catch everyone. Always. Like Millar.

Peakraider

slojo wrote:

How does the 'Astana are team-doping' theory tally with the 'Astana are all at each others' throats' theory?

Good question.

It's absolutely impossible that competing athletes are doping.

cougie

If you've followed cycling for any amount of time - you'll see that dopers can avoiid the tests many many times before getting caught - its not a perfect system.

Homer J

I've been training harder myself this year, and god forbid if i get a win in a cat 3 :shock:

moray_gub

iainf72 wrote:

Why he's always been good at TT'ing is a different debate entirely.

because he is talented no ?

SpaceJunk

I can't believe all this debate again about Alberto and his TT prowess. I remember back to 2007 when Cadel and Contador were about to go head-to-head in the last ITT.

Everyone was comparing their TT efforts in previous races. At the time I was surprised to see how strong some of his performances were back then.

Sure, AC beat Fabian - but there are some factors that need to be considered:

1. The Course - It had a Cat 3 climb - AC would've put good time into Fabian there. As good as Fabian descends, AC is no slouch either. As highlighted by his efforts in the prologue. Plus Fabian went off early, what impact did the weather have? I don't think there was much rain on the course for AC, but does anyone know what the wind did? Could AC had ridden in more favourable conditions.

2. The riders - Sure, everyone is saying that Cancellera has won Olympic Gold, WOrld Champs etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these TT aren't usually run after over 3,000 km and 2.5 weeks of racing. Fabian has also done a lot of work for Saxo-Bank and we don't know how big an impact the Tour de Suisse took out of him.

3. Last rider - going last in a TT has its advantages. For starters, you get to know everyone's time splits. Pure speculation here: We know Bruyneel rode in LA's car. LA went out like a bang. I can just imagine AC wanting to make sure he placed higher than LA to make another point to both LA and the Hog. I'm sure that could have been a motivational force.

And I can go and on. Point I'm trying to make is that there are so many factors that affect a riders' performance is a TT. Trying to compare times with other riders' time is nothing more than conjecture.

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

Greg Lemond his his doubts too:
http://www.lemonde.fr/sports/article/20 ... _3242.html

Take Contador's VAM on Verbier and apparently it translates into a VO2 max of 99. But there was a tailwind. Still, as the article reminds us, we discovered in the Festina trial in Lille that thanks to EPO, you can take VO2 max from 70 to 90.

Faulty calculations by the looks of things

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contado ... questioned

Even Wiggins would be in trouble using the same measure.

Ferrari estimated 420w which is a whole different ball game.

flattythehurdler

Mettan wrote:

stueyh wrote:

Or is it a case that they have some kind of magic Harry Potter potion that is invisible to laboratory tests.

Ashenden has just stated that beating the drug testers isn't difficult. He said, in fact, that he could write down how to do it on a post- it note.

PBo

iainf72 wrote:

Kléber wrote:

Greg Lemond his his doubts too:
http://www.lemonde.fr/sports/article/20 ... _3242.html

Take Contador's VAM on Verbier and apparently it translates into a VO2 max of 99. But there was a tailwind. Still, as the article reminds us, we discovered in the Festina trial in Lille that thanks to EPO, you can take VO2 max from 70 to 90.

Faulty calculations by the looks of things

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contado ... questioned

Even Wiggins would be in trouble using the same measure.

Ferrari estimated 420w which is a whole different ball game.

Irrespective of who's wrong or right, whether AC dopes or doesn't, this quote from the article irritated me.

"LeMond, in response, called on Contador to prove that he is physically capable of achieving these numbers without the use of performance-enhancing products, "assuming the validity of the calculations"."

How can he prove it? If for example, if he is just a freak of nature, how do you prove that?????

Whatever the truth, this kind of statement doesn't really get us anywhere.......

PBo

flattythehurdler wrote:

Mettan wrote:

stueyh wrote:

Or is it a case that they have some kind of magic Harry Potter potion that is invisible to laboratory tests.

Ashenden has just stated that beating the drug testers isn't difficult. He said, in fact, that he could write down how to do it on a post- it note.

That explains why Di Luca, was muttering "now what did I do with that yellow stickie?" before the Giro.....

aurelio_-_banned

flattythehurdler wrote:

Ashenden has just stated that beating the drug testers isn't difficult. He said, in fact, that he could write down how to do it on a post- it note.

Indeed he has.

How clean is the Tour de France?
7/8/2009
JOHN LEICESTER
The Associated Press

"It's clear that riders have learned to dope within the passport," says Michael Ashenden, one of the nine experts the UCI uses to analyze riders' blood.

Correctly manipulating transfusions and mini-doses of EPO requires a certain amount of know-how but not a PhD.

"I could write it down on a post-it note," Ashenden says.

http://www.pennlive.com/sportsflash/ind ... ist=sports


Thing is Contador is not the only rider to have produced eyebrow-raising performances, is he? How about a certain 'old man' who looks set for a podium place? Britain's own Bradley Wiggins is performing beyond all expectations and so on. It's not as if Contador has been beating the other main contenders by huge amounts of time either.

OK, so doubtless some are riding clean, but watching the race over the last few days I couldn't help thinking 'Bloody hell, they are still at it, no doubt comforted by the thought that the UCI / ASO have no intention of 'spoiling' this years Tour by busting any big names.’ One is almost tempted to think that certain big names have been given the green light to take anything they want to, as along as they boost the commercial value of the race by putting on a good 'show'.

richard wants a baum

Well if they were given a green light then the UCI/ASO should give them there positive test the racing has been pretty predictable and not particularly exciting i think we all knew who was going to win after the TT . The only person who has done more than i thought they would is Wiggins and i refuse to believe that he dopes.

flattythehurdler

PBo wrote:

flattythehurdler wrote:

Mettan wrote:

stueyh wrote:

Or is it a case that they have some kind of magic Harry Potter potion that is invisible to laboratory tests.

Ashenden has just stated that beating the drug testers isn't difficult. He said, in fact, that he could write down how to do it on a post- it note.

That explains why Di Luca, was muttering "now what did I do with that yellow stickie?" before the Giro.....

It was presumed he was referring to Michael rasmussen.
FWIW, whilst I am a complete cynic, I do think Le Monde may have gone too far on this one.

bdu98252

You can't have it both ways. Either you let them all take drugs and it could be like a junkies convention before the start or you ban drugs and test. Under the later regime everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

It is interesting on web forums how the norms of society are diregarded. For example I wouldn't go into a posters local town and demand that he prove himself not to be a pedo, murderer, wife beater etc having never met him, have no evidence or even know his character.

I prefer to believe in the athletes I watch on TV, not chastise every winner and exceptional performer as a cheat. This may result in me being wrong sometimes but it is much better than being a sceptic.

georgee

So he never provided a blood sample, so everytime they get tested blood is drawn, and no one has ever tested this? I just find this weird.

G

aurelio_-_banned

georgee wrote:

So he never provided a blood sample, so everytime they get tested blood is drawn, and no one has ever tested this? I just find this weird.

Who has said that he has never given a sample, or that no testing has ever been done?

Problem is, even if you do test a blood sample, this doesn't mean that you will find anything if the rider is doping. For example, 'micro doses' of Epo can maintain one's blood haemocrit level at an 'optimal' level and be undetectable as little as 12 hours after the drug was taken.

The effects of microdose recombinant human erythropoietin regimens in athletes

This study appraised the veracity of claims that athletes can evade doping controls by injecting microdoses of recombinant human erythropoietin (rHuEPO), which rapidly disappear from the circulation. We confirmed that microdosing can reduce the window of detection to as little as 12-18 hours post-injection, suggesting that authorities must adopt appropriate counter measures.

As expected high dose rHuEPO treatment rapidly elevated Hb concentrations within ~2 weeks (140 to 166 g/L; 148 to 174 g/L; subjects 1 and 2, respectively). We found that it was possible to maintain elevated Hb values using microdoses of rHuEPO. After 3 weeks of the microdose regimen Hb concentrations were still 164 g/L and 170 g/L respectively (and 164 g/L and 162 g/L 1 week after all injections ceased).

...Our results show that it is conceivable for athletes to maintain illicit rHuEPO doping even during multiday endurance events when competitors may be tested at the end of each day (ie at 24 hour intervals).

http://www.haematologica.org/cgi/reprint/91/8/1143

gabriel959

One thing that is going to be very interesting is how Contador will perform without Bruynels. A lot of riders that have been under Bruyneels umbrella have been caught doping afterwards so now with JB going with LA is going to be an interesting situation.

I am Spanish, and thorougly enjoy his rides and would be thoroughly disappointed if he is doping but I want everyone that does so out, like everyone here.

robmanic1

I think the problem is we've all had our illusions shattered over the years by seemingly clean riders being pinched, we just come to expect it now. I call it the "Landis" effect.

sudholz

gabriel959 wrote:

One thing that is going to be very interesting is how Contador will perform without Bruynels. A lot of riders that have been under Bruyneels umbrella have been caught doping afterwards so now with JB going with LA is going to be an interesting situation.

I am Spanish, and thorougly enjoy his rides and would be thoroughly disappointed if he is doping but I want everyone that does so out, like everyone here.

+1

I too am a Bertie fan. However the last few stages have left me feeling a little bit depressed about the sport. No proof and I'm not a specialist any more than other forum-ites, just a life-long commited cyclist and cycling fan.

But going back to Langmans original post: Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....probably a duck. Best of all, refuses to answer question "Are you a duck?" All he had to do was unequivocally say "No, I am not and never have been a duck" and condemn all ducks for their feathery-ness.

S

Steve Tcp

Sadly this is the legacy of dopers past - no remarkable performance goes by now without my eyebrows being raised, and that includes Contador's riding over the last few days. We all have the right to believe, and say, what we want, but I confess that I'm amazed that seasoned followers of top level pro cycling can watch Bertie effortlessly powering up mountains at record speed (and I believe he dropped back to the Schlecks the other day when Kloden didn't go with him, they didn't catch him) then winning 25 mile TTs without even considering the possibility that he might have artificially enhanced his performance. I also agree that if I was clean I'd be so piqued by accusations that I'd provide my DNA to UCI and WADA and also I'd answer Greg Lemond by giving him ort a neutral party access to my training records etc to prove my natural VO2 max however they wanted.

I really don't understand why folk make excuses for people not clearing their name with a simple test on the grounds of "human rights" violation etc - such high principles that don't extend to clearing their own name and helping cycling overcome this curse.

cswebbo

If someone can prove beyond all doubt the following i'll be happy that Contador is winning the tdf.

Who is 'AC same as JJ'(-Bella Jorg Jascke-confessed puerto doper) on the Puerto files if it is not Alberto?
How someone weighing about 60kg can produce the power required to ride at over 50kmph for 50 minutes in a tt after the previous days mountains, and beat Cancellara etc whilst doing so?
Explain how he was the only one to 'compete' with Michael Rasmussen in 2007?

Answers on a post it note please!!!

jonginge

cswebbo wrote:

Who is 'AC same as JJ'(-Bella Jorg Jascke-confessed puerto doper) on the Puerto files if it is not Alberto?

There's another spanish chap with the initials AC: Antonio Colom. But he's clean as a whistle so it's probably not him, either :roll:

Mettan

Steve Tcp wrote:

Sadly this is the legacy of dopers past - no remarkable performance goes by now without my eyebrows being raised, and that includes Contador's riding over the last few days. We all have the right to believe, and say, what we want, but I confess that I'm amazed that seasoned followers of top level pro cycling can watch Bertie effortlessly powering up mountains at record speed.

Yes, Contador looked effortless for much of stage 17 - the Schleck brothers were grimacing, wincing and clearly suffering at different pinch-points during the last 2 climbs - Contador looked very easy, almost effortless. His legs did go a bit after his failed attack though.

Kléber

JonGinge wrote:

cswebbo wrote:

Who is 'AC same as JJ'(-Bella Jorg Jascke-confessed puerto doper) on the Puerto files if it is not Alberto?

There's another spanish chap with the initials AC: Antonio Colom. But he's clean as a whistle so it's probably not him, either :roll:

The paperwork in the case reveal that the initials AC are Contador, there is a document which explains the identity of the initials, just in case Fuentes and his staff got confused! It's as if Laurel and Hardie were running the shop.

Even if you don't want to believe this, the Puerto files make reference to Alberto Contador in full, no need for initials. Document 3, seized from Fuentes's clinic, mentions "Dariuz Baranowsky; Joseba Beloki; Gianpaolo Caruso; Alberto Contador; Allan Davis; David Etxebarria; Igor González De Galdeano; Roberto Heras; Jorg Jaksche; Isidro Nozal; Sergio Paulinho; Nuno Ribeiro; Luis León Sánchez; Michele Scarponi; Marcos Serrano and Ángel Vicioso"

k-dog

dulldave wrote:

aurelio wrote:

The thing that's been getting me ever since seeing him TT at the Dauphine is that Contador appears to be all over the place on his bike.

Today he was repositioning himself after every few pedal strokes and his head was moving about all over the place. From my limited understanding of time trialling, this isn't good technique.

I'd expect someone who's been working on their time trialling to have sorted this. I mean if you don't sort that, what do you do to improve other than get used to pedalling a bigger gear?

I noticed that but just assumed it was to do with his new bike - he and Lance haven't had them too long and they both seemed to be shifting around a lot.