Pure Climbers

frenchfighter

"Pure climbers are another breed. They still talk about sensations rather than numbers, and about things like the feel of their pedals. They exist partly outside of the training mannual, partly beyond numerical definition and do things very much on intuition. They are a living reminder of an old way of cycling, the spiritual descendants of mountain kings like Bahamontes, Charly Gaul and Van Impe" - CycleSport.

I am someone who appreciates the pure climbers who ride on intuition, are stylish and have panache like the climbers of old. I do not like the climbing by numbers riders, the measured and controlled riders. I know the latter stuff helps, but then I care more about the attraction and excitement provided by the rider. If both are combined then so much the better.

Who would you consider to be a pure climber and who to be a numbers rider?

I would consider Contador a pure climber, being very light and comfortable climbing, turning his pedals smoothly, being able to have a great turn of speed then recover quickly and being able to attack from far out. Pantani is another.

Someone who I am very excited about is Dan Martin. I read an interview with him recently and will summarise as it is very interesting.

- Didn't fit into Britain's numbers approach so left for France, targetting races with big mountains.
- Winner Route de Sud 2008 and 2nd Tour of Catalonia.
- In the latter, he pushed Valverde so hard uphill that Valaverde told him afterwards that he had never seen a young pro with such attacking spirit.
- His core is very static yet he doesn't do or believe in core-training.
- "When I climb it is all on feel"
- As an amateur, his DS said cycling was a matter of managing pain. Martin believes in this and that you can go deeper than you think. He can hold his 20min pace for 40mins just by doing so.
- "I never go on power or heart rate".

Interestingly, Van Impe, a pure climber himself, says that Virenque wasn't a pure climber, never having the supple pedalling style.

disgruntledgoat

Van Impe is like Monty Python's four yourkshiremen sketch though, i've never heard him say a good word about anybody of the modern sport.

I've not seen much of Dan Martin in action yet, but will do some you tubing later. I agree with your disillusionment in the approach of science at the exclusion of all else, i think it robs the sport of spectacle, of mystique. Who would attack in the manner of a Hinault these days?

Likewise, Armstrong calling Ferrari via the radio to work out if Pantani could sustain his massive attack... That is a testament on so many levels to what has happened to cycling.

I'm not sure there are any artists in the current pro peloton. Moncoutie mabye.

john-e-big-guns

Pure Climbers......Robert Millar comes to mind...he could 'Dance' on the pedles, and still one of our great GB riders of the tour to place highest on GC

frenchfighter

Ah Robert Millar how I would have loved to have watched him.

He is the man in two of my favourite photos (the other is in the favourite Tour photos thread):

This is from the Dauphine.

frenchfighter

If you haven't seen Contador on the Angliru last year it is well worth a watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4ZUeAx38OU&feature=

Just look at the % signs :shock:

DaveyL

frenchfighter wrote:

- As an amateur, his DS said cycling was a matter of managing pain. Martin believes in this and that you can go deeper than you think. He can hold his 20min pace for 40mins just by doing so.

Then his 20 min pace is, by definition, wrong.

Bhima

frenchfighter wrote:

If you haven't seen Contador on the Angliru last year it is well worth a watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4ZUeAx38OU&feature=

Just look at the % signs :shock:

:shock:

dougzz

frenchfighter wrote:

If you haven't seen Contador on the Angliru last year it is well worth a watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4ZUeAx38OU&feature=

Just look at the % signs :shock:

Great video. Would anyone else support the use of snipers to offer a more effective road clearance on the big climbs?

:twisted:

frenchfighter

Yeah the crowds there are immense, agitated and are getting in the way a lot despite the presence of the police.

Leipheimer's performance on that climb is VERY impressive. If you watch videos of the early part of the climb, he is setting tempo, riding everyone but five people off his wheel.

afx237vi

Out of today's bunch, I'd say Sastre is the only other one who fits that description. There's a scene in Overcoming where he's out training with Riis in the car and they have an argument about power meters (or at least that's how I remember it - the last time I saw it was when it first came out). Carlos doesn't like them one bit.

shinyhelmut

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Who would attack in the manner of a Hinault these days?

Isn't that what Cuddles tried the other day?

The Kennington Kaiser

Van Impe's Pythonesque curmudgeonliness may be rooted in a fair assessment of modern cycling. As the good Doctor (Ferrari) has demonstrated, the last decade or two of stage races have been dominated by riders able to prouduce high levels of power in the time trials and final climbs of mountain stages. Training (and other) techniques and team tactics have changed the balance of power away from the frail climbers capable of quick accelerations and endurance in the mountains in favour of powerful, Armstrong-like all rounders who can sustain a certain wattage and have a group of super domestiques to reel in the grimpeurs. That said, Contador certainly is as close to the true ideal of the climber as we can get these days. I would have said similar of Ricco and Sella but, well, you all know what they were up to.

On Dan Martin, I'm not sure I'd agree with the comments about him not be ing concerned with power or numbers, a lot of his procycling articles seem to refer to his power output during training. He's a real climbing star in the making though.

frenchfighter

The Alpe climb in its entireity here. Scroll down about 90%

http://www.youtube.com/user/Wielerflits#play/uploads

What about the Schleck brothers?

Frank did a long range attack on Tour of California (about 80km I think).

afx237vi

frenchfighter wrote:

The Alpe climb in its entireity here. Scroll down about 90%

http://www.youtube.com/user/Wielerflits#play/uploads

What about the Schleck brothers?

Not Frank, and I think we still haven't seen Andy's full potential. In the Giro he got second place by following wheels, and last year he was looking super comfortable, but always had to reign it in because of the tactics.

Coriander

Slightly off topic, but I can't believe people feel it's acceptable to touch the riders. Or even get as close as they do. What do the riders make of it - hate it or welcome the support?

bigmat

Coriander wrote:

Slightly off topic, but I can't believe people feel it's acceptable to touch the riders. Or even get as close as they do. What do the riders make of it - hate it or welcome the support?

Cunego loved it when my brother slapped his arse on the Joux Plane in 2006, gave him a wink over his shoulder as he pedalled into the distance (I may have made that last bit up...)

dougzz

Coriander wrote:

Slightly off topic, but I can't believe people feel it's acceptable to touch the riders. Or even get as close as they do. What do the riders make of it - hate it or welcome the support?

They can't possibly like it, that tired the last thing you need is some arsehole getting in the way or thinking he's helping. I thought I'd seen some ridiculous people on Alpe d'Huez but the attitude of quite a few in this video is amazing. They obvioulsy believe people are more interested in their half witted antics than the race.

How about a giant catapult that fires them into the valley below, about 5 examples and most people would behave a lot better.

ms_tree

afx237vi wrote:

Out of today's bunch, I'd say Sastre is the only other one who fits that description. There's a scene in Overcoming where he's out training with Riis in the car and they have an argument about power meters (or at least that's how I remember it - the last time I saw it was when it first came out). Carlos doesn't like them one bit.

I agree with you about Sastre - I thought that film was quite fascinating in many ways - including the out-take of Jen's rant bleep bleep! IMO Contador could be a 'ride on feel guy' but it's being knocked out of him in that team as they keep holding him back! Pantani of course never used radios.

jackhammer111 - banned

frenchfighter wrote:

"Pure climbers are another breed. They still talk about sensations rather than numbers, and about things like the feel of their pedals. They exist partly outside of the training mannual, partly beyond numerical definition and do things very much on intuition. They are a living reminder of an old way of cycling, the spiritual descendants of mountain kings like Bahamontes, Charly Gaul and Van Impe" - CycleSport.

I am someone who appreciates the pure climbers who ride on intuition, are stylish and have panache like the climbers of old. I do not like the climbing by numbers riders, the measured and controlled riders. I know the latter stuff helps, but then I care more about the attraction and excitement provided by the rider. If both are combined then so much the better.

Who would you consider to be a pure climber and who to be a numbers rider?

Are you really French or do you just try to sound French? You incessant use of the word panache makes me wonder.

Out of the saddle Lance and Alberto look very similar. Both ride high tempo more than anybody and have similar body movement in my eyes.

I think it's foolish to believe Alberto makes any less use of Johan's coaches and technological approach than anyone else on the team.

I think you see what you want to see.

frenchfighter

Thanks for trying to ruin what is meant to be a decent thread with your comments JH.

Firstly their styles are VERY different. Just because they both pedal very high cadences doesn't mean they have the same style. I wont bother to explain the differences in their style - even a 10 year old could look at two videos and see the differences.

As for whether I am full French, half French or otherwise is of no concern of yours. To have a forum name like I do without having at least a strong connection with France would be slightly odd, n'est pas?

The irony in your comment however is that panache is actually a proper word in the English dictionary (despite its French origins). I know your grasp of these things isn't huge but at least try.

markwalker

Climbers are great, they suffer big time on the flats and return the favour in the mountains.

I dont think a climber is just the suppelness of pedal stroke but also the ability to repeatedly accelerate suddenly and violently to break the other more diesel riders who then have to hope they can claw their way back. Sometimes they can sometimes they cant. ACE

john-e-big-guns

frenchfighter wrote:

Ah Robert Millar how I would have loved to have watched him.

He is the man in two of my favourite photos (the other is in the favourite Tour photos thread):

This is from the Dauphine.

If you have never seen RM then youtube when he did is debut TDF in 83 when he ripped the legs of Jiminez on the Perasude and again in 93 when he road away from Delgado on the Col de Bonnett..... just pure magic

teagar

frenchfighter wrote:

"Pure climbers are another breed. They still talk about sensations rather than numbers, and about things like the feel of their pedals. They exist partly outside of the training mannual, partly beyond numerical definition and do things very much on intuition. They are a living reminder of an old way of cycling, the spiritual descendants of mountain kings like Bahamontes, Charly Gaul and Van Impe" - CycleSport.

I am someone who appreciates the pure climbers who ride on intuition, are stylish and have panache like the climbers of old. I do not like the climbing by numbers riders, the measured and controlled riders. I know the latter stuff helps, but then I care more about the attraction and excitement provided by the rider. If both are combined then so much the better.

Who would you consider to be a pure climber and who to be a numbers rider?

I would consider Contador a pure climber, being very light and comfortable climbing, turning his pedals smoothly, being able to have a great turn of speed then recover quickly and being able to attack from far out. Pantani is another.

[snip]

Interestingly, Van Impe, a pure climber himself, says that Virenque wasn't a pure climber, never having the supple pedalling style.

Ala Van Impe, I'd venture that Contador lacks the supple style too.

Still, he's at home on the toughest mountains, so you'd be hard pressed to argue he's not a proper climber.

I guess most people would feel a proper climber is one that likes to climb out of the saddle? Or is that just me?

Basso's also certainly at home uphill but I don't think many people would consider him a proper climber would they?


I'm very small and very light so i'd like to venture i'm a pure climber . Just a slow one....

frenchfighter

I agree with being out of the saddle - Pantani hardly ever sat down

IMO Contador spends a lot of the time out of the saddle, so does Schleck. Although I think Cadel actually might spend the most time out of the saddle (no I don't think he is a pure climber!).

markwalker

Good thread!

disquieting_museeuws

Van Impe is right about Virenque IMO, he was never a natural climber.

Jose Manuel Fuentes, from the Merckx era, is a good candidate for the climbers hall of fame I reckons. He had a very fluid style and could take off on huge make-or-break attacks in the mountains.

Earthbound

If anyone doubts Contador's true climbing ability hark back to the 2007 Tour when he was battling it out against Rasmussen That stage (can't remember which one) when he attacked and attacked again and again with savage accellerations was astonishing.

Wether he didn't have the strength to continue the pace or wether he eased up because Rasmussen repeatedly pulled him back I don't know, Rasmussen's performance obviously being very suspect. But Contador was only 24 then, he's a little older and a little stronger this year.

I think we'll see on Sunday's mountain top finish what he can do to his challengers and wether anyone can stay with him. Possibly the same on Ventoux. I can see Contador going and maybe Schleck and Sastre as the only big guns who can genuinely give chase.

My earliest memory of the Tour was Van Impe on World Of Sport's old 20 minute slot in the 70s. The hypnotizing rhythm of his climbing was so natural and fluid. Pantani had the same musicality to his climbing. Some of the Columbians in the 80s were very natural too, but were far from complete riders.

frenchfighter

I read a wonderful piece in a book today about Luis Ocana, and I think he may well fall under the pure climber category.



Here is a quote from the book by Eric Fottorino:

C'etait un athlète fin, tout en muscles et en nerfs, un cavalier d'orgueuil au panache de torero, avec les cimes de l'Aubisque et du Tourmalet toujours en reflet au bout des pédales.

As is to be expected, aspects will be lost in translation, but here it is in English:

He was a slender athlete, all muscles and courage, a proud rider with the panache of a bull-fighter, with the tops of l'Aubisque and the Tourmalet always reflected on the ends of his pedals.

dulldave

Yeah Ocana was a great rider. Just can't forgive him for his part in the stolen Vuelta though.

Kléber

Watch out for Dan Martin at the Vuelta, he seems to be hitting some form at the right time and is certainly a modern-day version of these climbers. There should also be some Spanish specialists too.

lfcquin

Does anyone else rate Luis Herrera? I remember just when I was getting into cycling in my early teens, this guy blew me away. He was my first proper cycling idol. I thought he was awesome! Probably because he was the first rider I saw who shreaded the mountains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtmildyQ8CI

He has definately got to be up there in the true climber category, probably wouldn't get the most points for style, but for pure guts, effort and speed he was amazing.