Stage 7 spoiler
Comments
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jackhammer111 wrote:frenchfighter wrote:Contador demonstrated today why he is the best GC rider in the World and why he is my favourite rider. I think some of you need to absolutely be quiet and admire the brilliance. You cannot hate on a proven winner who on top of everything has panache, something LA and Menchov, to name two, think is only the brand of a great drink in France. Did he need to attack? No, yet he still did. Class.
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Yea.. sneak attack on a teammate against team orders. Class.
If this had been the other way round, Lance jumping AC while AC was ahead on time, the Lance bashers would be running around waving their hands with their hair on fire.
21 seconds.. big deal... didn't even make back what he lost the other day when he missed the wind shift.
No, see if it had been the other way around then it would be completely logical for the Lance haters to jump all over him since Alberto IS the team leader... :roll:0 -
The silly immature thing about AC's attack was it made the other GCers chase. It lifted the whole pack and brought the yellow jersey back to 6 seconds. He and the team would have been better of being 2 or 3 minutes back of yellow. Now the yellow will come to Astana tomorrow and they'll have to defend all the way to the Alps.
He's not a smart rider. He has sat on Lances wheel for 3 days now and then sneak attacks him. He needs to be told what to do.
End the end it will probably be ok and he'll win but it will be because of Astana's awesome power and riders like Lance being professional about it, not because he's smart.
He'd better pay attention to Johan because the stages like tomorrow could be complicated and he's shown he's not capable of knowing the right thing to do.
If Lance is still contending in the 3rd week he should remember this day.0 -
jos2thehua wrote:jackhammer111 wrote:frenchfighter wrote:Contador demonstrated today why he is the best GC rider in the World and why he is my favourite rider. I think some of you need to absolutely be quiet and admire the brilliance. You cannot hate on a proven winner who on top of everything has panache, something LA and Menchov, to name two, think is only the brand of a great drink in France. Did he need to attack? No, yet he still did. Class.
]
Yea.. sneak attack on a teammate against team orders. Class.
If this had been the other way round, Lance jumping AC while AC was ahead on time, the Lance bashers would be running around waving their hands with their hair on fire.
21 seconds.. big deal... didn't even make back what he lost the other day when he missed the wind shift.
No, see if it had been the other way around then it would be completely logical for the Lance haters to jump all over him since Alberto IS the team leader... :roll:
No he's not. just not..not even... no.. not leader..
Lance will get stronger in the 3rd week0 -
jackhammer111 wrote:frenchfighter wrote:Contador demonstrated today why he is the best GC rider in the World and why he is my favourite rider. I think some of you need to absolutely be quiet and admire the brilliance. You cannot hate on a proven winner who on top of everything has panache, something LA and Menchov, to name two, think is only the brand of a great drink in France. Did he need to attack? No, yet he still did. Class.
]
Yea.. sneak attack on a teammate against team orders. Class.
If this had been the other way round, Lance jumping AC while AC was ahead on time, the Lance bashers would be running around waving their hands with their hair on fire.
21 seconds.. big deal... didn't even make back what he lost the other day when he missed the wind shift.
What were the 'team orders'? Bruyneel said there weren't explicit instructions. Of course, Lance said there were, but they may have been his orders. Who really knows?
LA has always said that he and AC both have same objective. Both have usedmantra of 'road will decide'.
I would not call it a sneak attack - it's not like LA had a mechanical or anything. He was right there.0 -
jackhammer111 wrote:The silly immature thing about AC's attack was it made the other GCers chase. It lifted the whole pack and brought the yellow jersey back to 6 seconds. He and the team would have been better of being 2 or 3 minutes back of yellow. Now the yellow will come to Astana tomorrow and they'll have to defend all the way to the Alps.
He's not a smart rider. He has sat on Lances wheel for 3 days now and then sneak attacks him. He needs to be told what to do.
End the end it will probably be ok and he'll win but it will be because of Astana's awesome power and riders like Lance being professional about it, not because he's smart.
He'd better pay attention to Johan because the stages like tomorrow could be complicated and he's shown he's not capable of knowing the right thing to do.
Ummmm, if AC didn't attack, LA wouldve still found himself within 45 secs of yello anyway. So Astana would be in the same position they are now.
And as for how AC is operating, sitting on wheels etc, minimizing efforts - that is a proven way to win Grand Tours; LA had won 7 of them like that.
And remember AC may he sitting on LA's wheel, but it's not like Lance is facing the elements, he too has the luxury of shelter from team mates ahead of him.0 -
jackhammer111 wrote:The silly immature thing about AC's attack was it made the other GCers chase. It lifted the whole pack and brought the yellow jersey back to 6 seconds. He and the team would have been better of being 2 or 3 minutes back of yellow. Now the yellow will come to Astana tomorrow and they'll have to defend all the way to the Alps.
Huh? :?
If that logic had any sense at all, why ride on the front all day today?
Why go so, so hard in the TeamTT?
Another break will go today and lt's down to Ag2r to chase. If Nocentini gets dropped, the team stop riding, so the break stays......unless Astana chase again.
Let one of them pick up this suddenly poisoned chalice.
They don't call it hogwash for nothing.jackhammer111 wrote:No he's not. just not..not even... no.. not leader..
Lance will get stronger in the 3rd week
To quote a famous poster on this forum. So, you know this to be true, how?
Do you know both these men personally?
3 GT wins in 18 months and not a leader....rrright. :oops:"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Hmm, a big mountain stage and the main contenders only raced for the last 2km...
Well done to the men in the break though.
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07 ... eport.html0 -
jackhammer you are putting out so much drivel in this thread and others that I simply do not have enough time to reply to all your ignorant comments which suggest you have only started watching racing for the first time in your life with the Tour. I suggest you create a new profile, start from scratch and start talking sense.
Read Blazing Saddles comments as they answer some of your bizzare comments.Contador is the Greatest0 -
frenchfighter wrote:jackhammer you are putting out so much drivel in this thread and others that I simply do not have enough time to reply to all your ignorant comments which suggest you have only started watching racing for the first time in your life with the Tour. I suggest you create a new profile, start from scratch and start talking sense.
Read Blazing Saddles comments as they answer some of your bizzare comments.
Drivel? Paul Sherwood quoted your hero Eddie Merckx as saying "he didn't think it was right attacking his teammates that were setting tempo on the front."
He also quoted Axel saying "if you want to win the tour you have to have teammates".
Lance isn't the only teammate AC could have annoyed. Levi and Kodi worked there butts off yesterday. Levi cam back from a spill uphill to get back before the climb and still worked the front.
You need to come down off your know it all high horse when it comes to me. I'm not novice at this and I'm not a tour de france only fan boy.0 -
Quote: I'm not novice at this and I'm not a tour de france only fan boy.
Judging by your naive comments, I can't see any evidence to suggest otherwise.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:jackhammer111 wrote:No he's not. just not..not even... no.. not leader..
Lance will get stronger in the 3rd week
To quote a famous poster on this forum. So, you know this to be true, how?
Do you know both these men personally?
3 GT wins in 18 months and not a leader....rrright. :oops:
I guess I have to point out to you again that the 7 time winner one of the greatest of all time is on the same team.
AC's attack yesterday was well executed, but tactically dim. The way the race played out it would have been better to have someone else in yellow by a few minutes, not seconds and that's why he should have listened to Johan and just made tempo to the top. They were comfortably in the lead early. The 20 seconds he gained were not worth the way it looked inside the team.0 -
Monty Dog wrote:Quote: I'm not novice at this and I'm not a tour de france only fan boy.
Judging by your naive comments, I can't see any evidence to suggest otherwise.
so i take it you are saying Merckx is naive too?
if you want to discuss what i actually say at least quote something you think naive so i can have the benefit of your self proclaimed expertise.
you're a bit smug for my taste.0 -
You fighting a losing battle Jackhammer, I suggest you give up.
Merckx is not my hero, although I do consider him the greatest cyclist of all time by a long way. That I have a quote from him as my signature is because I like the quote - I am a very good climber but don't have a light or fancy bike.
All the races Contador has been in this year he has had little support and still won or performed very well. He won the Giro and the Tour without huge support too.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Well, it's fairly obvious that Kloden isn't in this leadership equation, judging from today's early events.
He and 2 other Astana "mules" in the big breakaway group. Gain 30-40 seconds on Uncle Lance.
So? Astana chase him down AND make the other two come back to help do it.
Not saying the overall tactic was wrong, seeing Evans and Schleck were up there, too, but it was a mighty short leash.
The Freiburg Phantom had to quite a lot of graft, overall, in various ways. He is the first of the fantastic four who is going to burn out, in this podium hogging quest.
Kloden had to really work his butt off today and it wasn't for Contador. Will he now get p*ssed with LA, or just do the job he's paid for?"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Kloeden dropped 23 seconds on the main group of GC riders yesterday - do you have an anti-Lance conspiracy theory explanation for that as well?Le Blaireau (1)0
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DaveyL wrote:Kloeden dropped 23 seconds on the main group of GC riders yesterday - do you have an anti-Lance conspiracy theory explanation for that as well?
I have no theories that fit into your scheme of things.
Kloden will lose a heck of a lot more on the Grand Bernand and Ventoux stages.
His job description is as a top notch super domestique.
So what if he loses 23" to Contador?
Expecting Astana to fill the top 4 places is naive.
You and Jack make an odd couple."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
This says it quite well, I think.
Sums it all up, for me.Anybody who was "surprised" at a GC contender attacking with 2k to go on a mountain top finish to gain time on his rivals really should take their head out of their b*tts. What really amuses me is the Lover/Hater thing going on. Contador attacks and its "he's the man/traitor". If Armstrong attacked it would be " he crushed them/he's not a team player".
It's very sad but intresting that one person can polorise "cycling fans" so much. I just want to see agressive/intelligent/exciting racing.
I just get pi**ed off, when you have people trying to fault Contador for attacking, when they should just be honest and say : "I want Lance to win and I want Contador to hold back and not ride to the best of his ability"."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:DaveyL wrote:Kloeden dropped 23 seconds on the main group of GC riders yesterday - do you have an anti-Lance conspiracy theory explanation for that as well?
I have no theories that fit into your scheme of things.
Kloden will lose a heck of a lot more on the Grand Bernand and Ventoux stages.
His job description is as a top notch super domestique.
So what if he loses 23" to Contador?
Expecting Astana to fill the top 4 places is naive.
You and Jack make an odd couple.
My point was that it may have been evident yesterday that Kloeden was not part of the leadership equation. Glad to see you've caught up though.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
frenchfighter wrote:You fighting a losing battle Jackhammer, I suggest you give up.
Merckx is not my hero, although I do consider him the greatest cyclist of all time by a long way. That I have a quote from him as my signature is because I like the quote - I am a very good climber but don't have a light or fancy bike.
All the races Contador has been in this year he has had little support and still won or performed very well. He won the Giro and the Tour without huge support too.
The tour without huge support? Levi, Popovich, Hincape. Levi on the podium? The Giro? Mostly the same team as this year minus Lance? The best stage racing team over 8 of the last 9 years? Ring any bells? I'm shocked you would say such a totally ignorant thing.
Seems it is you that have given up... the great Merckx criticized the move after I had and you had called it drivel and your only response is a personal jab.
Is it drivil out of Merckx's mouth? I don't think you look very credible making that argument.
The move was widely criticized and did not show "class" from your favorite rider and very obviously did not sit well on his own team.
He's a great talent and is still the favorite to win. But if he wins it like this, where he puts Lance in the position where he can't counterattack because Lance respects cycling's traditional rules, it will tarnish him. Just as it would tarnish Lance if it was other way around.0 -
jackhammer111 wrote:frenchfighter wrote:You fighting a losing battle Jackhammer, I suggest you give up.
Merckx is not my hero, although I do consider him the greatest cyclist of all time by a long way. That I have a quote from him as my signature is because I like the quote - I am a very good climber but don't have a light or fancy bike.
All the races Contador has been in this year he has had little support and still won or performed very well. He won the Giro and the Tour without huge support too.
The tour without huge support? Levi, Popovich, Hincape. Levi on the podium? The Giro? Mostly the same team as this year minus Lance? The best stage racing team over 8 of the last 9 years? Ring any bells? I'm shocked you would say such a totally ignorant thing.
Seems it is you that have given up... the great Merckx criticized the move after I had and you had called it drivel and your only response is a personal jab.
Is it drivil out of Merckx's mouth? I don't think you look very credible making that argument.
The move was widely criticized and did not show "class" from your favorite rider and very obviously did not sit well on his own team.
He's a great talent and is still the favorite to win. But if he wins it like this, where he puts Lance in the position where he can't counterattack because Lance respects cycling's traditional rules, it will tarnish him. Just as it would tarnish Lance if it was other way around.
You're avvin a giraffe right?
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Blazing Saddles wrote:DaveyL wrote:Kloeden dropped 23 seconds on the main group of GC riders yesterday - do you have an anti-Lance conspiracy theory explanation for that as well?
I have no theories that fit into your scheme of things.
Kloden will lose a heck of a lot more on the Grand Bernand and Ventoux stages.
His job description is as a top notch super domestique.
So what if he loses 23" to Contador?
Expecting Astana to fill the top 4 places is naive.
You and Jack make an odd couple.
You are right about Kloden and Levi will probably end up being that too.
But 2 or 3 steps is not out of the question. Without a silly 10 second penalty, Levi was second in 07.
Probably not, but not out of the question.0 -
jackhammer111 wrote:He's a great talent and is still the favorite to win. But if he wins it like this, where he puts Lance in the position where he can't counterattack because Lance respects cycling's traditional rules, it will tarnish him. Just as it would tarnish Lance if it was other way around.
According to your logic no one can attack as they will put their teammate in a position of not wanting to chase (which incidentally every single rider follows as a total matter of course). How do you suggest a rider attacks then - maybe if all four Astana hitters attack simueltaneously...jackhammer111 wrote:The tour without huge support? Levi, Popovich, Hincape. Levi on the podium? The Giro? Mostly the same team as this year minus Lance? The best stage racing team over 8 of the last 9 years? Ring any bells? I'm shocked you would say such a totally ignorant thing.
ASTANA Giro 2008
21 LEIPHEIMER Levi USA
22 CONTADOR Alberto ESP
23 GUSEV Vladimir RUS
24 COLOM Antonio ESP
25 IGLINSKY Maxime KAZ
26 MORABITO Steve SUI
27 MIZOUROV Andrei KAZ
28 KLÖDEN Andreas GER
29 BAZAYEV Assan KAZ
Astana (AST) Giro 2009
21 ARMSTRONG Lance USA
22 BRAJKOVIC Janez SLO
23 HORNER Christopher USA
24 LEIPHEIMER Levi USA
25 MORABITO Steve SUI
26 NAVARRO GARCIA Daniele ESP
27 POPOVYCH Yaroslav UKR
28 RUBIERA VIGIL Jose Luis ESP
29 ZEITS Andrey KAZ
Note1: the teams are certainly not 'mostly the same', in fact they only have two people the same.
Note2: Contador wasn't even the designated leader.
Note3: Contador was on holiday one week before the Giro and still won.
Note4: Kloden didn't finish.
Note5: Contador did not take part in the Giro this year.
If you didn't express yourself clearly and meant the Giro team of 2008 was mostly the same as the Tour team 2009...you are still wrong as there are only three people the same.
Astana (AST) Tour 2009
21 CONTADOR VELASCO Alberto ESP
22 ARMSTRONG Lance USA
23 KLÖDEN Andreas GER
24 LEIPHEIMER Levi USA
25 MURAVYEV Dmitriy KAZ
26 PAULINHO Sergio Miguel Moreira POR
27 POPOVYCH Yaroslav UKR
28 RAST Gregory SUI
29 ZUBELDIA AGIRRE Haimar ESP
Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 2007
111 Levi Leipheimer (USA)
112 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa)
113 Vladimir Gusev (Rus)
114 George Hincapie (USA)
115 Egoi Martinez De Esteban (Spa)
116 Benjamin Noval Gonzalez (Spa)
117 Sergio Miguel Moreira Paulinho (Por)
118 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr)
119 Tomas Vaitkus (Ltu)
Note1: Contador wasn't even the designated leader.
I am not sure whether you follow cycling other than the Tour as I have already mentionned, so maybe you should look at the races Contador participated in this year, see his performances and see how little support he had.
In summary, my point, of Contador not having much support either becuase he wasn't the designated leader or because the others in the team couldn't provide it or any other reasons, is valid.
Oh and in case I forget, Astana and Disco are not the same team. The may have similarities. In fact, in case you were not aware, both Disco and Astana were riding in the 2007 Tour as seperate teams.
Your other points are not worth replying to as you are simply turning things in circles, going no where and digging deeper holes.Contador is the Greatest0 -
If it was such a problem and Armstrong was in it to win it, he should have gone with Contador.
Or maybe he couldn't...
It's called racing, not riding around waiting for sh1t to happen.0 -
frenchfighter wrote:jackhammer111 wrote:He's a great talent and is still the favorite to win. But if he wins it like this, where he puts Lance in the position where he can't counterattack because Lance respects cycling's traditional rules, it will tarnish him. Just as it would tarnish Lance if it was other way around.
According to your logic no one can attack as they will put their teammate in a position of not wanting to chase (which incidentally every single rider follows as a total matter of course). How do you suggest a rider attacks then - maybe if all four Astana hitters attack simueltaneously...
You wait.. you don't attack when there is no need in the first week of the race. You wait... until you are on longer harder climbs and the selection is smaller.. there will be times with fewer riders on the mountain where it won't be like it was yesterday.. and i think you know this.jackhammer111 wrote:The tour without huge support? Levi, Popovich, Hincape. Levi on the podium? The Giro? Mostly the same team as this year minus Lance? The best stage racing team over 8 of the last 9 years? Ring any bells? I'm shocked you would say such a totally ignorant thing.frenchfighter wrote:Note1: the teams are certainly not 'mostly the same', in fact they only have two people the same.
Note2: Contador wasn't even the designated leader.
Note3: Contador was on holiday one week before the Giro and still won.
Note4: Kloden didn't finish.
Note5: Contador did not take part in the Giro this year.
You are so disingenuous.. You know perfectly well Astana brought it's tour team to the Giro.
You display a lack of knowledge of the race so let me help you out. Kloden was a major factor in helping AC in stage 2, stage 7, stage 8, stage 10, stage 14, stage 15, stage 19, especially 19 before abandoning. He'd been sick a week.
AC's performance may be the most incredible I've ever seen in a major tour but to say Astana did not have huge support for him is just plain ignorant to the point of insult to the riders and the intelligence of anyone who hears you say it.
My mistake for saying the teams were mostly the same, although in most important aspects they were. You huge mistake saying he did it without huge support. I'm aghast that you even make a lame attempt to defend it.frenchfighter wrote:Your other points are not worth replying to as you are simply turning things in circles, going no where and digging deeper holes.
you are not replying to the other things because you are wrong.. so i'll post them again and see of you address them.
". the great Merckx criticized the move after I had and you had called it drivel and your only response is a personal jab.
Is it drivil out of Merckx's mouth? I don't think you look very credible making that argument.
The move was widely criticized and did not show "class" from your favorite rider and very obviously did not sit well on his own team.
He's a great talent and is still the favorite to win. But if he wins it like this, where he puts Lance in the position where he can't counterattack because Lance respects cycling's traditional rules, it will tarnish him. Just as it would tarnish Lance if it was other way around."0 -
NapoleonD wrote:If it was such a problem and Armstrong was in it to win it, he should have gone with Contador.
Or maybe he couldn't...
It's called racing, not riding around waiting for sh1t to happen.
Much of winning GC in a grand tour is waiting for sh1it to happen.
If Lance would have counterattacked, Evans and others would have followed him, especially in that wind, and it is against unwritten rules to help contenders bridge up an attack by a teammate and bring them closer in overall time. He slowed down, made other contenders break that wind and rode their wheels, exactly as he should have.
Lance may or may not be able to hang with him in the last week, but we sure don't know from this.
It was brilliantly executed but tacticly stupid. The last thing he should have been doing is showing up the 7 time winner of the race if he's expecting any help from in the end. I think he's pissed Lance off. Maybe Levi too. I'm beginning to think he's not too bright.0 -
Watch it again and you will see that Lance couldn't cross to Schleck either. Only when Schleck decided to slow, did he bridge.
It will all become academic, next week, if Schleck goes and Astana all get in a protective huddle around their guest rider.
When did Lance win Tours by waiting for sh*t to happen?
Tours are won by heaping the stuff on your opponents, before they heap it on you.
As for being stupid. Well, he would be, if he sat, looking at Lance's backside for 3 weeks, waiting for all that help.
Just say you want Lance to win, by any means and have done with it.
The rest of us will die of boredom waiting for some exciting attacking riding."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:Watch it again and you will see that Lance couldn't cross to Schleck either. Only when Schleck decided to slow, did he bridge.
It will all become academic, next week, if Schleck goes and Astana all get in a protective huddle around their guest rider.
When did Lance win Tours by waiting for sh*t to happen?
Tours are won by heaping the stuff on your opponents, before they heap it on you.
As for being stupid. Well, he would be, if he sat, looking at Lance's backside for 3 weeks, waiting for all that help.
Just say you want Lance to win, by any means and have done with it.
The rest of us will die of boredom waiting for some exciting attacking riding.
I wouldn't right him off completely.. I think he is bluffing it majorly but a ruse is possible.. I think he banking on some sort of plan.. he is conducting a lot of diplomacy in the bunch
how fruitful or desperate that be is to be seen... I think as long as Contador doesn't do something stupid its his too lose
I think Saxo were sussing out who could go with a big move ?
andy talks a lot sh1t thou..that post stage 7 interview is nonsense
somebody has to keep the pressure on Astana"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:Watch it again and you will see that Lance couldn't cross to Schleck either. Only when Schleck decided to slow, did he bridge.
It will all become academic, next week, if Schleck goes and Astana all get in a protective huddle around their guest rider.
When did Lance win Tours by waiting for sh*t to happen?
Tours are won by heaping the stuff on your opponents, before they heap it on you.
Lance attacked where real gains were to be made. Not generally 20 seconds here and there.
I just hope that 20 second was real important to Alberto.
Alberto's 08 giro was great with it's on the beach on vacation theme but I was just looking at the riders that weren't in that Giro,
Evans, Sastre, Schleck, Vande Velda and of course Lance.0 -
jackhammer111 wrote:Blazing Saddles wrote:Watch it again and you will see that Lance couldn't cross to Schleck either. Only when Schleck decided to slow, did he bridge.
It will all become academic, next week, if Schleck goes and Astana all get in a protective huddle around their guest rider.
When did Lance win Tours by waiting for sh*t to happen?
Tours are won by heaping the stuff on your opponents, before they heap it on you.
Lance attacked where real gains were to be made. Not generally 20 seconds here and there.
I just hope that 20 second was real important to Alberto.
Alberto's 08 giro was great with it's on the beach on vacation theme but I was just looking at the riders that weren't in that Giro,
Evans, Sastre, Schleck, Vande Velda and of course Lance.
What was the final time gap between Contador and Sastre in '07, just out of interest?0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:Watch it again and you will see that Lance couldn't cross to Schleck either. Only when Schleck decided to slow, did he bridge.
He didn't "decided to slow". That's silly. Nobody was going to bridge to Alberto in the wind without massive effort. For what? 20 seconds gained back and 14 more stages to ride?0
