*Spoliers* Tour de France talk *Spoilers*

marchant

Greg66 wrote:

So AC puts in a little unplanned poke in the eye. That sort of thing can not go down too well in a team environment. If he has a bad day in the mountains, he will need to look to his team to help him. He might just find he's looking for a while.

I seem to remember someone saying that while your team may not be able to make you win, they can make you lose (or something along those lines. Might've been Mr Armstrong...

iain_j

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/spo ... 10222.html

Lest there be any further confusion or speculation, Astana team director Johan Bruyneel said unequivocally at a press conference Friday afternoon that Alberto Contador will start the Tour de France Saturday as his team's designated leader not Lance Armstrong.

So what's Armstrong's problem? Can't he face not being the leader? Why is he so put out that his team leader is making attacks?

greg66_tri_v2.0

Great read here

AC's big tactical advantage is that with Astana dominating the top 10, the chances of him having to counter multiple attacks from other teams all by himself is reduced. But chances are, he will need a team around him at some point...

Coriander

I think not attacking would have been more than could have been asked of Contador. Emotionally.

Don't blame him. I'd have stuck it to LA as well.

Though I do think that half of the team will stay loyal to LA, I also reckon half of them are loyal to AC, so who knows how supported Contador will be from now on...

always_tyred

iain_j wrote:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/cycling/6510222.html

Lest there be any further confusion or speculation, Astana team director Johan Bruyneel said unequivocally at a press conference Friday afternoon that Alberto Contador will start the Tour de France Saturday as his team's designated leader not Lance Armstrong.

So what's Armstrong's problem? Can't he face not being the leader? Why is he so put out that his team leader is making attacks?

He's annoyed because it was a sucker punch. Not cricket. A little bit Cunego/Simoni. If Armstrong responded, he'd drag his team mates with him - tiring them unecessarily to catch up to their own team mate...., and he'd also help all of his competitors catch his own team mate in the process. If LA had attacked, in principle, the same situation would have applied.

The gloves are off now. All for only 21 seconds. Might not be worth it. Will definitely make it harder for AC than necessary, because to my reading there are other climbers/gc contenders who are able to take LA past his limit and AC could have stayed with them and, once LA has been dropped by someone else, be free to attack without the acrimony.

Another interesting note - a lot of the riders on the team are potential future employees of Armstrong. Contador probably isn't. Who do you think they will ride for?

iain_j

Always Tyred wrote:

Another interesting note - a lot of the riders on the team are potential future employees of Armstrong. Contador probably isn't. Who do you think they will ride for?

You've lost me. I thought Armstrong was only back for one year, as promo for his cancer charity?

I did see the dig at Lance in Contador's attack today, and I enjoyed it, but I didn't see the problem with it as such, just Contador reminding Lance who's the leader.

Christophe3967

G66 and AT are spot on. Bertie couldn't resist and LA could - he rode for the team and Bertie rode for himself. The other day LA looked shot but today he looked like he was enjoying himself. Nobody can say definitely that he couldn't have jumped on Bertie's wheel - but had he done so his credibility would have been destroyed.

Highlights apart from that were Fab's descending - he was clocked at 90kph :shock: and the way he casually took a leak after hiis first visit from the PF , plus Bradley - what a star. 8)

el_presidente

Contador clearly is taking advice from the past master of dealing with intra-team battles:

"If I were Contador, I would attack Armstrong tomorrow in the climb to Arcalis to set the record straight and show him who's the boss," Hinault said

http://www.itv.com/sport/tourdefrance/n ... fault.html


To be fair though Hinault's advice on these matters is usually fairly predictable - "As long as I breathe, I attack."

iain_j

I like Hinault's style

cjcp

LA appeared to be in a bit of a huff, didn't he? But, yesterday, he said that if AC felt good, he would see if he could go with him or stay with the other contenders if they couldn't go with him. Or something like that anyway. :-)

So, today, AC obviously feels like he's had a good night's sleep and says "bye, bye", the others can't follow and LA stays with them.

So, where exactly didn't it go to plan? I'm guessing he means "I'm not in yellow."

It would surprise me if AC feels like he doesn't have much of a team anyway given the way LA has bossed around Zubeldia and his ex-Disco mate, Popovych.

Kloeden's an interesting one. Classy rider, but is he riding for LA so he's on his side of the split which is rumoured to happen in Sept when Vinokourov comes back?

Agree with G66 about Evans. Gutsy, but he can't match AC.

Best bit of today though was Wiggins. How cool was it to see a Brit climbing in the same group as the GC contenders?

Bugly

cjcp wrote:

It's gone. He can't outkick AC. He will have to grind him down, and that won't happen.

Yep I was watching his face - he appeared to be stretched barely kept up with the Evans attack, and AC got a good 20 sec on him.

oscarbudgie

cjcp wrote:

Best bit of today though was Wiggins. How cool was it to see a Brit climbing in the same group as the GC contenders?

+1. Great to have a decent British climber after such a long time. Also its very unlikely Wiggo will ever decide he'd rather be a lady

Stone Glider

So Cadel is attacking and Bradley Wiggins has the class to stay with the best This is turning out to be a great TdF.

I thought that the return of L A would bring back all the predictability, not so. Nevertheless, Alberto Contador has the talent to ride away from them all in the mountains and the Time Trial. He is the Astana team leader and will win in Paris.

attica

oscarbudgie wrote:

Also its very unlikely Wiggo will ever decide he'd rather be a lady

WTF :shock:

EDIT I loved that moment when LA and AC passed either side of Evans, classy way to humble a common enemy, probably the last time they'll ever "work" together though.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Attica wrote:

oscarbudgie wrote:

Also its very unlikely Wiggo will ever decide he'd rather be a lady

WTF :shock:

EDIT I loved that moment when LA and AC passed either side of Evans, classy way to humble a common enemy, probably the last time they'll ever "work" together though.

Look up Robert Millar (on the Internet)...

Stone Glider

No please don't He is no longer a public figure and is entitled to his privacy and his dignity.

always_tyred

Stone Glider wrote:

No please don't He is no longer a public figure and is entitled to his privacy and his dignity.

He's so good at not being a public figure that this particular rumour is, as yet, unsubstantiated. If he manages to stay anonymous in rural Devon, that's even more impressive.

I reckon he's grown a beard and follows European races dressed in red lycra. He's been right under our noses all this time.

cjcp

He's apparently emailing the Eurosport commentators.

edhornby

and now after LA waded in about the supposed danger of the courses on the giro, he's now complaining about the lack of race radio's for 2 days on the tour... suck it up Lance, you knew about this before the start of the tour, are you bothered because its 2 days that you and bruyneel can't boss the race ???

il_principe

edhornby wrote:

and now after LA waded in about the supposed danger of the courses on the giro, he's now complaining about the lack of race radio's for 2 days on the tour... suck it up Lance, you knew about this before the start of the tour, are you bothered because its 2 days that you and bruyneel can't boss the race ???

Be fair Ed, he's not the only rider complaining about the race radio thing.

cjcp

Some details about this coming Friday's stage:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/96th-t ... s/stage-14

Can't imagine why they want race radio...

Agent57

edhornby wrote:

and now after LA waded in about the supposed danger of the courses on the giro, he's now complaining about the lack of race radio's for 2 days on the tour... suck it up Lance, you knew about this before the start of the tour, are you bothered because its 2 days that you and bruyneel can't boss the race ???

Yeah, that's why most of the other teams have signed the petition as well. They're all upset that it might damage Astana's chances.

I think having no (team) race radio will be great. Old skool! More opportunity for someone to slip away, and more likelihood breaks will succeed. I don't buy the danger line - the Tour commissaire will still be able to relay information about problems ahead.

cjcp

Indeed. Riders will have to use their instinct a bit more.

I'm sure Philippe Gilbert won a semi-Classic last year after a break despite his race radio packing up.

always_tyred

Agent57 wrote:

edhornby wrote:

and now after LA waded in about the supposed danger of the courses on the giro, he's now complaining about the lack of race radio's for 2 days on the tour... suck it up Lance, you knew about this before the start of the tour, are you bothered because its 2 days that you and bruyneel can't boss the race ???

Yeah, that's why most of the other teams have signed the petition as well. They're all upset that it might damage Astana's chances.

I think having no (team) race radio will be great. Old skool! More opportunity for someone to slip away, and more likelihood breaks will succeed. I don't buy the danger line - the Tour commissaire will still be able to relay information about problems ahead.

The thing is - its like racing 15 rounds of F1 using one set of rules, and then banning tyre changes for a couple of races for some fun. Its not a consistent event and they should either have them, or not.

All that is going to happen is that no breaks will be allowed to get away and/or any breaks will be reeled in with more time to spare. Race radios help teams time it to the last 5km, having a chalk board will simply make them more conservative. Its not as though its 1908 and some guy can escape and have the rest of the field not notice he's gone.

cjcp

Consistency is a fair point, but it's good to experiment (didn't Graham Taylor say that?).

Also, attacks are less likely to succeed on the flat stages now anyway if Columbia want to get that Green Jersey back for Cavendish.

Also, I'm not sure how much difference it'll make to the hilly stages anyway. Astana will just have to go through the list of riders the night before, decide who can go and who can't (bearing in mind TT ability etc), and if Astana are forced to work a bit more to reel attacks in, that's no bad thing.

dirk_van_gently

Radio's out?
It's a good move IMHO.

The whole radio scene should never have been allowed to infiltrate cycle racing, but it has. I suspect that the reason it infiltrated in the first instance was the mobile phone SP sponsorship. It has made the racing (if you can call it that on occasions), more conservative, less random, and favours the more powerful teams.

Always Tyred, your F1 tyre argument is a bit off the wall, no one is asking them not to change wheels or tyres, just not to have their control freak team manager not whispering in their ears. I suspect some riders will welcome it.

And the safety argument is just so totally invalid that the team managers should be ashamed of themselves for even dreaming that one up.

always_tyred

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

Radio's out?
It's a good move IMHO.

The whole radio scene should never have been allowed to infiltrate cycle racing, but it has. I suspect that the reason it infiltrated in the first instance was the mobile phone SP sponsorship. It has made the racing (if you can call it that on occasions), more conservative, less random, and favours the more powerful teams.

Always Tyred, your F1 tyre argument is a bit off the wall, no one is asking them not to change wheels or tyres, just not to have their control freak team manager not whispering in their ears. I suspect some riders will welcome it.

And the safety argument is just so totally invalid that the team managers should be ashamed of themselves for even dreaming that one up.

It isn't spurious. Its simply an example of two sets of rules in the same event. It would be fine if there was consistency.

If someone did (and they won't) win because the peloton lost track of the time gap, the win would be forever the one that happened "because there were no radios that day".

It is detrimental to the sporting integrity of this year's event. Its a gimic and shouldn't be trialled in this event. Maybe do the whole Dauphine without radios or something like that, and take it from there.

Mobile phone sponsorship and team radios are unrelated. They came in because they became technologically viable and because they are useful. Just like HRM's and power meters. Do you argue that before athletes had HRM's to monitor when they went anaerobic, time trials were less predictable?

Agent57

I'm not a big fan of technology in sporting endeavours, so I'd be quite happy to see HRMs and power meters banned. Maybe even speedos. Not just from cycling, either; in F1 for example, I'd happily see the loos of launch control, automatic gearboxes, traction control, etc. I like sports to be relatively pure, and based on the sportsman's own control and ability to know his body.

I do accept Always Tyred's point that one or two stages in the Tour de France isn't necessarily the best place to experiment with having no radios, but I'm still looking forward to seeing if it has any impact; and what impact that is.

As for yesterday's stage, I was really disappointed when I saw the stage profile. I look forward to the mountain stages for summit finishes and race-defining rides. The Pyrenees have been a disappointment.

shoulder_of_orion

Always Tyred wrote:

If someone did (and they won't) win because the peloton lost track of the time gap, the win would be forever the one that happened "because there were no radios that day".
?

I don't agree with this. What about the time Oscar Peirero won the TDF after making up HALF AN HOUR on a long escape, basically because Floyd was in a crap team and couldn't reel in the escapees. They had radios then.

They have different rules in the ITT and TTT, even different bikes, and in any case each stage is so different anyway, I'm not sure I buy the consistency argument. Friday's stage looks like a classic stage for a long escape to succeed. I for one, will be interested to see how it unfolds without radios.

biondino

Um, I'm not sure that was why Pereiro beat Landis...