*Spoliers* Tour de France talk *Spoilers*
Comments
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Always Tyred wrote:
It isn't spurious. Its simply an example of two sets of rules in the same event. It would be fine if there was consistency.Dirk Van Gently wrote:Radio's out?
It's a good move IMHO.
The whole radio scene should never have been allowed to infiltrate cycle racing, but it has. I suspect that the reason it infiltrated in the first instance was the mobile phone SP sponsorship. It has made the racing (if you can call it that on occasions), more conservative, less random, and favours the more powerful teams.
Always Tyred, your F1 tyre argument is a bit off the wall, no one is asking them not to change wheels or tyres, just not to have their control freak team manager not whispering in their ears. I suspect some riders will welcome it.
And the safety argument is just so totally invalid that the team managers should be ashamed of themselves for even dreaming that one up.
If someone did (and they won't) win because the peloton lost track of the time gap, the win would be forever the one that happened "because there were no radios that day".
It is detrimental to the sporting integrity of this year's event. Its a gimic and shouldn't be trialled in this event. Maybe do the whole Dauphine without radios or something like that, and take it from there.
Mobile phone sponsorship and team radios are unrelated. They came in because they became technologically viable and because they are useful. Just like HRM's and power meters. Do you argue that before athletes had HRM's to monitor when they went anaerobic, time trials were less predictable?
+1
I'm ambivalent on radios in general but I don't think this experiment will prove anything- the fact that it's just for a couple of days will influence the way the teams respond. It needs to be tried over a whole race or not at all, and that race probably shouldn't be one of the grand tours.0 -
I'd like to see them do a single speed stage just for fun, something with a couple of hills (not mountains) so that choosing a ratio before you set off becomes part of the challenge.
I somehow doubt Shimano, Campag or SRAM would allow this to happen though."Impressive break"
"Thanks...
...I can taste blood"0 -
They have banned all these things (in F1).Agent57 wrote:I'm not a big fan of technology in sporting endeavours, so I'd be quite happy to see HRMs and power meters banned. Maybe even speedos. Not just from cycling, either; in F1 for example, I'd happily see the loos of launch control, automatic gearboxes, traction control, etc. I like sports to be relatively pure, and based on the sportsman's own control and ability to know his body.
Why is everyone so keen to reduce the advantage of strong teams? Its a team sport, with an individual element.... or an individual sport with a team element. So mitigating against the team factor is about as valid as saying - lets use a handicap system of weights on the bikes to reduce the advantage of the stronger riders. Its just an articifical equality you are trying to engineer. Are you against drafting in the peloton? Or is it only okay if you aren't drafting anyone from the same team as you?0 -
I can't think of any other sport (apart from F1 and the other categories) where competitors are in allowed to be in permanent contact with their coaches during the competition.
At the moment the cyclists are nothing more than fast, pedalling robots who need show very litle racing nouse because tactics are devised and implemented by the coaches. No radios would force the riders to think strategically themselves.0 -
Always Tyred wrote:They have banned all these things (in F1).
Oh, fair enough. I stopped watching F1 because it had become more obviously about technology than driving talent (IMO, see Button & Hamilton this season as examples).0 -
Coriander wrote:I can't think of any other sport (apart from F1 and the other categories) where competitors are in allowed to be in permanent contact with their coaches during the competition.
At the moment the cyclists are nothing more than fast, pedalling robots who need show very litle racing nouse because tactics are devised and implemented by the coaches. No radios would force the riders to think strategically themselves.
i was undecided 'til I read this, and I agree. The sport should be more about the cyclists ability to not just (ahem) cycle, but also their tactical nouse. As long as safety is not compromised (and that's easily sorted) I think that they could do without radios.
Cheers Coriander
Chunky Cyclists need your love too! :-)
2009 Specialized Tricross Sport
2011 Trek Madone 4.5
2012 Felt F65X
Proud CX Pervert and quiet roadie. 12 mile commuter0 -
So how do you explain the split in the peloton that LA took advantage of, or the impromptu attack that AC put in? I think the effect of radios one way or another is greatly overstated.Coriander wrote:I can't think of any other sport (apart from F1 and the other categories) where competitors are in allowed to be in permanent contact with their coaches during the competition.
At the moment the cyclists are nothing more than fast, pedalling robots who need show very litle racing nouse because tactics are devised and implemented by the coaches. No radios would force the riders to think strategically themselves.
Other sports with coaching access during competiion - althletics, football, rugby, american football, ice hockey, david cup tennis, golf (caddy - who could be David Leadbetter if the golfer wanted).
Sports where it isn't possible - tennis.
I think you are getting hung up on the nature of the communication.
As for technology - where do you draw the line? If you remove all technology from cycling, its called "running".0 -
I'm not sure how big an effect the radios really have. Time gaps to breakaways are communicated by the guys on motorbikes anyway. I think the biggest impact would be if one of the gc contendors had a mechanical. They'd spend a lot more time waiting on the side of the road for the team car if they had no way to communicate. To me, that just adds an element of luck to the race which doesn't seem fair0
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I can't think of any other sport (apart from F1 and the other categories) where competitors are in allowed to be in permanent contact with their coaches during the competition.
Football. The Manager/Coach shouts from the touchline. If they are sent off they can still talk to the team via comms with the assisstant manager through the use of mobile phone....
It should be noted that the use of TV evidence as to determine disputes about fouls and whether the ball crosses the line have always been resisted. For me this keeps the purest - to chance - element in football.Oh, fair enough. I stopped watching F1 because it had become more obviously about technology than driving talent (IMO, see Button & Hamilton this season as examples).
I agree, This season Hamilton (last) has a crap car and Button (first) has a better car than everyone else other than his team mate.
But to be fair if the technology argument was valid then they would have all the cyclist on the same bike and their wouldn't be millions of pounds developing new way's of shaping bikes to get the most out of the rider.
It could be argued that the Agritubel rider that won that stage did so because he was riding one of the UCI legal lightest bikes in the Tour that has been designed for climbing... Equally, the best sprinters are better because of the bike (Cavendish's Scott has extra wraps of carbon in key places to add to stiffness). - Where does the use of technology start and end?
Personally I don't think they should have radios as tactics are less down to the rider, which is where I think it should be.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
There was a review of the 1989 TdF in one of CycleSport or ProCycling this month. Great anecdote from Lemond's DS: Lemond was cracking on a climb and the DS was blocking Fignon's DS so that the word to attack didn't get through. Eventually Fignon attacked but didn't make up as much time as he could have... lost the tour by 8 seconds0
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Always Tyred wrote:As for technology - where do you draw the line? If you remove all technology from cycling, its called "running".
Hehe, good point. I wouldn't go that far though. Hell, they can even keep their gears.0 -
FCN 2-4.
"What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
"It stays down, Daddy."
"Exactly."0 -
Always Tyred wrote:
So how do you explain the split in the peloton that LA took advantage of, or the impromptu attack that AC put in? I think the effect of radios one way or another is greatly overstated.Coriander wrote:I can't think of any other sport (apart from F1 and the other categories) where competitors are in allowed to be in permanent contact with their coaches during the competition.
At the moment the cyclists are nothing more than fast, pedalling robots who need show very litle racing nouse because tactics are devised and implemented by the coaches. No radios would force the riders to think strategically themselves.
Other sports with coaching access during competiion - althletics, football, rugby, american football, ice hockey, david cup tennis, golf (caddy - who could be David Leadbetter if the golfer wanted).
Sports where it isn't possible - tennis.
I think you are getting hung up on the nature of the communication.
As for technology - where do you draw the line? If you remove all technology from cycling, its called "running".
No, AT, I disagree - with all those sports you mention (except perhaps golf) the coach is not in permanent contact with the team. Of course, as players enter and leave the field of play they will bring with them advice and guidance from the coach, but the point is, it's not permanent contact.
And no, I'm not caught up on the type of communciation, it's the fact that it's throughout the race and that there is no need for the riders to think for themselves at all.
And of course riders are free to ignore the instructions coming through their earpiece, as AC undoubtedly did on Friday, but at least when they do that they are showing a bit of their own thinking, however good an idea that might prove to be.0 -
FCN 2-4.
"What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
"It stays down, Daddy."
"Exactly."0 -
So, would you allow riders to drop back to the team car for a pep talk?
If so, who would do it, the team leader or a domestique?
If the latter, wouldn't that favour the stronger teams?
I see what you are getting at, but I don't see that much difference between John Lloyd telling some inbred British tennis player he's not, in fact, shite, between shots, or Rafa Benitez waving his arms around incomprehensively for 85 minutes within earshot of his left back, and the permanence of the contact with the team car by radio. Its a question of degrees - the ease of passing information, rather than the nature of the information.0 -
Before mobile phones and blackberries, people still managed to get hold of one another.FCN 2-4.
"What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
"It stays down, Daddy."
"Exactly."0 -
I'd ban mountain top fires from the TdF as well.cjcp wrote:Before mobile phones and blackberries, people still managed to get hold of one another.0 -
Always Tyred wrote:
I'd ban mountain top fires from the TdF as well.cjcp wrote:Before mobile phones and blackberries, people still managed to get hold of one another.
What about the Dutch?FCN 2-4.
"What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
"It stays down, Daddy."
"Exactly."0 -
You're right CJ, we shouldn't have fires on top of them either"Impressive break"
"Thanks...
...I can taste blood"0 -
I think the French bring the whole event down. They should dispense with them and hold the whole thing in Italy.cjcp wrote:Always Tyred wrote:
I'd ban mountain top fires from the TdF as well.cjcp wrote:Before mobile phones and blackberries, people still managed to get hold of one another.
What about the Dutch?0 -
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Being nice and being good tend to be mutually exclusive. Why do we in the UK so dislike successful sportsmen? If LH wasn't so ruthless and generally not that likeable, he'd be Johnny Herbert. Would you prefer that?biondino wrote:
Just wanted to see that againHamilton (last)0 -
Always Tyred wrote:As for technology - where do you draw the line? If you remove all technology from cycling, its called "running".
Only if you're bare foot and naked...Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:Always Tyred wrote:As for technology - where do you draw the line? If you remove all technology from cycling, its called "running".
Only if you're bare foot and naked...
EPO is worn on the inside though. FCN 2-4.
"What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
"It stays down, Daddy."
"Exactly."0 -
Always Tyred wrote:
Being nice and being good tend to be mutually exclusive. Why do we in the UK so dislike successful sportsmen?biondino wrote:
Just wanted to see that againHamilton (last)
If our cricket team was any good, there'd be no point going to see them because a good part of the day spent watching a test match involving England is made up of discussing the team you'd pick and how they'd be much better and generally talking complete nonsene. What on earth would we do it England were any good?FCN 2-4.
"What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
"It stays down, Daddy."
"Exactly."0 -
Always Tyred wrote:
Being nice and being good tend to be mutually exclusive. Why do we in the UK so dislike successful sportsmen? If LH wasn't so ruthless and generally not that likeable, he'd be Johnny Herbert. Would you prefer that?biondino wrote:
Just wanted to see that againHamilton (last)
Yes. When it comes to F1 I'm 100% Italian.
(also, I liked LH when he started, but the fact that he drives for McLaren and is demonstrating himself to be a) a choker and b) a bit of a nasty piece of work means he now successfully fills the pantomime villain role for me)0 -
Has Hamilton shown himself to be a bit of a nasty piece of work? Do you mean the Australian GP, or something else? I can't say I've noticed a nasty streak, but as I already said, I don't pay much attention to F1 any more.0
