*Spoliers* Tour de France talk *Spoilers*

cjcp

Attica wrote:

I quite agree Greg, but what I don't understand (and today was a bad example as it was quite twisty in the last few km) is why another team doesn't set up a parallel lead out?
Itcan't be that THR have all of the fastest leadout men too? Surely they're beatable. (not that I want to see them beaten mind you, I'm rather enjoying a bit of British success.

Yup, I think Sherwen said the same thing. But Millar leading out Farrer? Seems a bit of a mismatch to my uneducated eyes when you see Renshaw going like the clappers for Cavendish.

attica

Why the last 20k though? It can't be too hard to organise a train behind the train and use them as lead out men until say the last km, then boom

cjcp

Attica wrote:

Why the last 20k though? It can't be too hard to organise a train behind the train and use them as lead out men until say the last km, then boom

Sherwen was suggesting a parallel train to mess up THR because using them as a lead out means that you're behind Cavendish. Which is a bad place to be looking at his speed.

attica

Oh talking of Sherwen, has anybody else started counting the number of times he uses the phrase "in the sport of professional cycling"?

bless

cjcp

Attica wrote:

Oh talking of Sherwen, has anybody else started counting the number of times he uses the phrase "in the sport of professional cycling"?

bless

Or, during the first week, the amount of times he and Liggett referred to LA looking like the LA of old or being in magnificent form or blah blah blah. Stop it.

cjcp

Greg66 wrote:

Over on the Cervelo forum there's a bit of chat about how Hushvold's lead out men are suffering from a lack of form. Who knows? Boonen's team is rarely anywhere to be seen at the sharp end either.

Are CTT saving their energy for what support they can offer Sastre?

greg66_tri_v2.0

Attica wrote:

Why the last 20k though? It can't be too hard to organise a train behind the train and use them as lead out men until say the last km, then boom

I changed it to 10, after a bit of post-post thought.

I reckon that if your tactic is to chase Cav and try to pip him on the line, you're dead. My plan would be to keep him behind my sprinter; that means crowding out the front of the pack with my team and maybe one or two others. Say Cav knows that his optimum sprint means he needs to be let loose at 250m to go. If you can crowd out the front so that he can't find a line though until 150m to go, you created a situation in which he won't be able to hit full speed in time for the line.

Now, if you want to pack the front of the bunch like that, you need to put riders on the front, and slow it down (relative to the THR preferred pace) so it's nice and fat and wide over the last couple of k. That means taking control of the race from a way out, and not giving THR the opportunity to set their train up.

greg66_tri_v2.0

cjcp wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

Over on the Cervelo forum there's a bit of chat about how Hushvold's lead out men are suffering from a lack of form. Who knows? Boonen's team is rarely anywhere to be seen at the sharp end either.

Are CTT saving their energy for what support they can offer Sastre?

Not from what I can see.

There's a lot of wishful thinking over there. CTT is a brand spanking new team, and I think it's unrealistic to expect them to work miracles in their first year. They also have what I think is a somewhat odd balance in the team: what's their goal? The sprints, with Hushvold? The mountains with Sastre? The GC with Sastre? As I've said before, I think it's beyond most teams to aim for more than one jersey (TMob being the team exception, and Merckx being the individual exception).

However ... a rumour I saw this evening is that Alonso is planning to put together a Spanish bike team around AC next year. Apparently Alonso is big mates with Sastre. I've wondered why Sastre didn't retire after last year; it seems that he's been around ages. I suspect there's a degree of loyalty (and money) driving him; a pension year or two with Alonso would be attractive. So maybe Sastre's plan is to help Caisse d'Epagne to help AC in the Alps.

risi

cjcp wrote:

Attica wrote:

Oh talking of Sherwen, has anybody else started counting the number of times he uses the phrase "in the sport of professional cycling"?

bless

Or, during the first week, the amount of times he and Liggett referred to LA looking like the LA of old or being in magnificent form or blah blah blah. Stop it.

I believe, unfortunately, that their live commentary is actually done for Versus (or something like that) - an American channel anyway - and that's what's used for the itv4 programme. So they probably have to inject a bit of Lance fanboy stuff due to that.
Or they might really think it - in which case, stop it.

Eau Rouge

Attica wrote:

Oh talking of Sherwen, has anybody else started counting the number of times he uses the phrase "in the sport of professional cycling"?

The have a whole bingo game going on with those guys catch phrases over in the Pro Race section. The best bit of commentary those two did all year was the live internet feed for the Tour of California prologue, where their mics were live on the internet video a good half hour before they went live for the TV. The lads didn't know their mics were on.
"if he's still with us after 10 years he must have learned fcuk all" being the highlight

As for the other teams... They, especially Cervelo have being trying ever since Qatar to beat Cav. Cervelo almost won Milan-San Remo by cleverly getting the lead-out guy to actually go for it, catching everyone napping as they try to get on Hushovd's wheel who's not going anywhere. It almost worked.
They were all more likely to have parallel lead-out trains going earlier on in the season. It didn't work. Part of why you don't see it is that Boonen seems to have given up sprinting if Cavendish is there, he doesn't even contest those sprints anymore, let alone bother to get a train going. Columbia have very little else to ride for other than Cavendish, and so have picked his lead-out train to go to the Tour and be his lead-out train. Cervelo have Sastre as their main focus, so Hushovd maybe doesn't have the guys he might otherwise have. These trains are hard to get working, if Cervelo or Garmin don't have the "usual" guys, they may not be in a position in the last couple of k's to set a train up. The fact is, Hincapie and Renshaw are the best lead-out train in the field, and are just that good at setting themselves up at the front of the peleton, dragging Cav with them, and doing their thing.
Last christmas Cavendish did an interview thingy where he spent 15 minutes going through his Tour stages last summer from overhead shots, explaining in great detail exactly what is happening. It was fascinating how it all unfolds. Last year, they made mistakes and didn't always get the train up and running properly. This year, it's just too slick, nobody can touch them, and then the best sprinter in the world pops out and wins.

The only way to beat him is to not have Hincapie and Renshaw there in the last km. Then he has no train and is beatable. But not easily beatable.

The Cervelo test team is the brainchild of Cervelo, but they had Sastre on-board with the whole concept of a test team before it ever got off the ground. I don't see him leaving. They may be a new team, but ever since they tore the peleton apart on the first day in Qatar, the first day of racing this year, they have been a team to be reckoned with. Their aim is Sastre in the mountains, they just couldn't TTT well enough. Hushovd and Haussler are there to do what they can in the meantime.

cjcp

Yeah, what those guys said.

Did Hushovd have a lead out team when he was at Credit Agricole? All I can remember was that, back then, Boonen had Steegmans to lead him out.

Is Wiggins's weight loss anything to do with his desire to be the lead man in the Team GB Sky team?

Risi - that makes sense. I was in he US during the 2003 Tour and they were presenting for OLN TV, and they interviewed LA after the race, with Carmichael, S and L doing web reviews of each stage. (One of the interesting points about that interview was the way LA asserted that Hamilton was the good guy (on Luz Ardiden (sp.?), was it?) by slowing down the lead group after he'd watched the replay.)

el_presidente

Greg66 wrote:

So, Cav's spanking the field senseless in the sprints. He must be pretty awesome, right?

Well, maybe. Probably.

The thing is, no other team is contesting the sprints. Today was a perfect example. THR pushed the pace into town. They hit the 1km banner, and it's Hincapie from Renshaw from Cav from Husvold.

Hincapie peels off, Renshaw hits the afterburners, and at 250-200 to go, lets Cav loose. Pow. End of the game. Husvold gets to follow Cav home.

So who's Hushvold's lead out man? Cav. Trouble is, he can't get past Cav. Hushvold's fighting a one man battle against a team. He's getting *no* support from CTT.

Now, on present form, barring a breakaway that doesn't get chased down, Cav + his organised team has every sprint from here to Paris sewn up. There's no contest.

When are the other teams going to start fighting back? No one's saying it would be easy to do so, admittedly, but not trying seems to be a pretty limited tactic.

Betfair will give you 4/6 on Cav every day even after it's clear the break will be closed down. You won't get much closer to free money than that

DonDaddyD

Its getting boring chaps, very boring.

When are they gonna race and go balls out damn it! I put more effort into SCR and commuting.

All I can remember is a couple TT's, Cavendish winning and two (relatvely) unknown cyclist winning in the mountains because the big guns, as long as they're with the yellow jersey who isn't going to attack, aren't willing to chase.

Even early breaks like Cadel Evans first break (during the race where he again tried to attack and was flanked then crushed by Contador and Armstrong) are diplomatically talked out of existing as oppose to being chased down.

If the only thing all the real contenders are willing to do is keep up with the yellow jersey instead of actually attacking, forcing breaks and winning stages then I may hang my devil costume up and wait until the final weeks TT and Ventoux stage, but a two stage Tour doesn't make for good entertainment when the overall competition is over three weeks.

tailwindhome

Been in Majorca for a week (international ride report to follow) and haven't been keeping in touch with the racing.


Could someone quickly bring me up to speed?

Rich158

DonDaddyD wrote:

Its getting boring chaps, very boring.

When are they gonna race and go balls out damn it! I put more effort into SCR and commuting.

All I can remember is a couple TT's, Cavendish winning and two (relatvely) unknown cyclist winning in the mountains because the big guns, as long as they're with the yellow jersey who isn't going to attack, aren't willing to chase.

Even early breaks like Cadel Evans first break (during the race where he again tried to attack and was flanked then crushed by Contador and Armstrong) are diplomatically talked out of existing as oppose to being chased down.

If the only thing all the real contenders are willing to do is keep up with the yellow jersey instead of actually attacking, forcing breaks and winning stages then I may hang my devil costume up and wait until the final weeks TT and Ventoux stage, but a two stage Tour doesn't make for good entertainment when the overall competition is over three weeks.

Patience dear boy, patience. It's a three week tour, no one's going to go balls out in the first week or two. It's like a game of chess watching the different strategies play out, no-ones going to show their hand just yet.

Tsk, tsk, I don't know the playstation generation have no patience, my kids are just the same - the attention span of a gnat

Unfortunately I think the Tour has shot itself in the foot his year, with Ventoux as the penultimate stage the race could be effectively won or lost on that ascent, therefore no-ones willing to risk anything just yet.

DonDaddyD

Rich158 wrote:

[

Patience dear boy, patience. It's a three week tour, no one's going to go balls out in the first week or two. It's like a game of chess watching the different strategies play out, no-ones going to show their hand just yet.

Tsk, tsk, I don't know the playstation generation have no patience, my kids are just the same - the attention span of a gnat

Unfortunately I think the Tour has shot itself in the foot his year, with Ventoux as the penultimate stage the race could be effectively won or lost on that ascent, therefore no-ones willing to risk anything just yet.

I think I'd prefer them one day races. Can you (or somebody) list them? Oh and the World Championship road race, when where is that being held?

So there is the Veluta, Giro and Tour de France. World Championships and then Monument races, right? What are the Monument races?

Other than that there are things like Tour of Britain, Tour Down Under, Tour in Poland and Ireland.

Oh and playstaion generation.... :shock:... I should be flattered, how young do you think I am?

cjcp

WheezyMcChubby wrote:

Been in Majorca for a week (international ride report to follow) and haven't been keeping in touch with the racing.

Wahey! He's back!

Could someone quickly bring me up to speed?

No problem.

1. It's all over*. *ducks* :P AC has it in the bag bar (a) a spectacularly bad day for him coupled with a spectacularly good day for A Schleck, which would involve him putting time, not only Contador, but on LA, Kloden and Leipheimer too.

2. Wiggins is awesome. Looking a teeny, weeny bit thin, but still awesome. He's climbing with the GC contenders. Bit of a boo boo yesterday being on the wrong side of the split at the finish and losing 15 secs to slip down the GC to, um, 7th, is it? But, all the same, he's awesome. 8) We'll see on Friday whether he can keep it up.

3. Meanwhile, Cav is mopping up all over the show (three sprint victories to date) and, by the end of the Tour, should be greener than the little green men from outer space.



Warning: this post may be slightly exaggerated.

risi

cjcp wrote:

2. Wiggins is awesome. Looking a teeny, weeny bit thin, but still awesome. He's climbing with the GC contenders. Bit of a boo boo yesterday being on the wrong side of the split at the finish and losing 15 secs to slip down the GC to, um, 7th, is it? But, all the same, he's awesome. 8) We'll see on Friday whether he can keep it up.

They decided that the 15s didn't actually exist. He's back up to 5th.

cjcp

I think I'd prefer them one day races. Can you (or somebody) list them? Oh and the World Championship road race, when where is that being held?

The Classic's are awesome, but, Rich is right: patience, lad. 8)

The one dayers are in the spring. In no order: Het Volk (semi-Classic), Milan-Sanremo, Flanders, Roubaix, Amstel, Fleche-Wallone, Ghent-Wevelgem (semi-Classic?), Liege-Bastogne-Liege, Tour of Lombardy. I've missed some, I know it. Where's Eau Rouge?

The Worlds are in September, I think.

So there is the Veluta, Giro and Tour de France. World Championships and then Monument races, right? What are the Monument races?

Classics are in the Spring.

Monuments are: Flanders, Roubaix, MSR, Tour of Lombardy, LBL. See here: http://www.cyclingrevealed.com/Top_20_C ... ClToC.html

Other than that there are things like Tour of Britain, Tour Down Under, Tour in Poland and Ireland.

Lots of other tours too.

cjcp

risi wrote:

cjcp wrote:

2. Wiggins is awesome. Looking a teeny, weeny bit thin, but still awesome. He's climbing with the GC contenders. Bit of a boo boo yesterday being on the wrong side of the split at the finish and losing 15 secs to slip down the GC to, um, 7th, is it? But, all the same, he's awesome. 8) We'll see on Friday whether he can keep it up.

They decided that the 15s didn't actually exist. He's back up to 5th.

Brilliant. 8)

el_presidente

cjcp wrote:

risi wrote:

cjcp wrote:

2. Wiggins is awesome. Looking a teeny, weeny bit thin, but still awesome. He's climbing with the GC contenders. Bit of a boo boo yesterday being on the wrong side of the split at the finish and losing 15 secs to slip down the GC to, um, 7th, is it? But, all the same, he's awesome. 8) We'll see on Friday whether he can keep it up.

They decided that the 15s didn't actually exist. He's back up to 5th.

Brilliant. 8)

yeah what on earth is all this about, why have these 15" been erased from history?

jonginge

el_presidente wrote:

cjcp wrote:

risi wrote:

cjcp wrote:

2. Wiggins is awesome. Looking a teeny, weeny bit thin, but still awesome. He's climbing with the GC contenders. Bit of a boo boo yesterday being on the wrong side of the split at the finish and losing 15 secs to slip down the GC to, um, 7th, is it? But, all the same, he's awesome. 8) We'll see on Friday whether he can keep it up.

They decided that the 15s didn't actually exist. He's back up to 5th.

Brilliant. 8)

yeah what on earth is all this about, why have these 15" been erased from history?

Haven't seen the news of this yet. Looking at the footage last night it seemed very harsh to split the bunch as the gap was only a couple of bike lengths so must only just have been above the second required for the split to be called

Edit: reported on cyclingweekly: http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... ersed.html

Eau Rouge

There are one-day classics all year, but mostly in April
Rather than rewrite it, I'll post the Wikipedia article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_cycle_races

There are lots of other ones too, of varying prestige. The Eroica, Italy's version of the Tour of Flanders, including over 50k of gravel roads is fairly new but attracts big names springs to mind.

The beauty of a one-day race is that the first guy across the line wins, so there should be no sitting about with the yellow jersey as there isn't one. What usually happens is that at certain devisive points, the peleton will be split into various groups, with the lead group of top riders getting smaller and smaller at each decisive point (a hill, or a cobbled section, or a cobbled hill) until you get to the end. They use the same route every year as much as possible too, so everyone knows exactly whats coming up. Either way it all happens there and then, no waiting for tomorrow to attack, no worrying about not being fresh to defend tomorrow either, and with the same route being used, you have all that history to work with. Nothing builds prestige quite like history.

The World Championships are different. Riders race for their country, not their teams, with each country limited in how many riders they can enter. It's still a one-day race, but usually takes places over a number of laps of a loop rather than place to place like the Classics, in a different part of the world every year. Because it moves, it will suit different riders depending on where it is (a hilly course vs a flatter course, for example)
Since team places are limited, not all the top Spanish or Italian riders will make the team, and those that do will usually be 'leaders' in their own teams. This can cause problems in getting them to work for each other. I think those are the main reasons the Worlds are not quite on a level with the Momuments.
Take Cavendish for example. He didn't go to the Worlds last year, and probably won't this year, as neither course suits him too much, but he'll be in Australia the year after, where the flatter course will be just what he's looking for. But, he won't have his Columbia lead-out train as those guys will be on different teams if they are there at all.

You also have various one-week stage races. Most of these are usually most interesting as build-up events to the Monuments or Grand Tours though, rather than important races purely in their own right (they are important in their own right too, but not too much) Paris-Nice and the Tirrano-Adriatico or the Dauphine Libre and Tour de Suisse for example.

You also have various lesser-grade races. So, last week the Tour of Austria was on, for example. Naturally, no really big names were there, they are all in the Tour de France. The Columbia "B-team" meanwhile was winning in Austria.

edhornby

DDD

the monuments are

Paris-Roubaix
Milan-San Remo
Tour of Flanders
Giro di Lombardia
liege-bastogne-liege

there are also lots of other one day classics like ghent weveheglem and mini-tours as well such as paris-nice

fungus_the_muffin_man

WOW!!!!! that was a quality finish

greg66_tri_v2.0

Slamdunk.

That sounded like hard work. Will be interested to see the highlights.

fungus_the_muffin_man

The way coumbia got the train set up and for Cav to do what he does best against a very good attack had me on the edge of my seat. As a team Columbia certainately know how to work together. They were excellent

el_presidente

cav traded above evens for nearly all the stage, excellent price.

fungus_the_muffin_man

Class interview
Interviewer - you did well as you as some people didn't think it was your kind of sprint uphill.
Cav ( with a bemused look)- Who said that? some kind of foreign internet people.

Well done on getting back the green jersey

Jamey

Loffles.