tube strike and numpy cyclists
Comments
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bluesacs wrote:Well I'm going to show solidarity with the RMT and Mr Crowe and indeed Porgy, people should always try to better their conditions and unions are usually a good way of doing it. And sometimes you have to strike. There are a lot more effective unions in the world who get their members huge salaries, benefits and bonuses. So don't knock a union for asking for modest demands.
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And I thought they were modest tbh - but we live in times where we're all supposed to flagellate ourselves publicly while professing out hatred for MPs (somehting else I'm out of step on with the general public).0 -
Just goes to show that perhaps you and other Tube workers have underestimated the tide of feeling on this. If the strike can stir up this amount of resentment on a cycling forum whose readers probably don't use the Tube anyway, imagine how Joe Public who needs the Tube daily feels!Do not write below this line. Office use only.0
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Headhuunter wrote:Just goes to show that perhaps you and other Tube workers have underestimated the tide of feeling on this. If the strike can stir up this amount of resentment on a cycling forum whose readers probably don't use the Tube anyway, imagine how Joe Public who needs the Tube daily feels!
but ask the question - in 20 years when investment has been run down to barely ticking over, and the service has reduced, the signalling systems are decades out of date again, failures increase and cannot be rectifiied quickly due to lack of skilled staff - who's going to get the blame.
It'll be the tube workers again. we can't win.0 -
bluesacs wrote:Well I'm going to show solidarity with the RMT and Mr Crowe and indeed Porgy, people should always try to better their conditions and unions are usually a good way of doing it. And sometimes you have to strike. There are a lot more effective unions in the world who get their members huge salaries, benefits and bonuses. So don't knock a union for asking for modest demands.
I'm reaching for my helmet now, not a silly bicycle helmet, but a proper steel one. To your positions!
I agree with you. Unions are the best way to collectivly fight for rights. I have been a union member of one kind or another since I started working at the age of 16 (USDAW when I was working in shops)
What I will say is that a union is as only as good as it's shop steward. What matters to most members is what their local rep does on a day to day basis. When I was a POA member and was being bullied at work which led to me going off sick because of it, it was the establishment rep who was a god send. He would phone up every couple days to update me and find out how I was, visited every couple weeks (driving to Okehampton where I lived at the time) to check on me. It's simple things like that that reafirm my belief in unions.
If it wasn't for the unions we would be in a far worse position than we are now, so yes they are needed. But I do think that Bob Crow is a liability to his own members. The vast majority are moderate hard working men and women who don't want to strike, but he comes across as a bully boy (as I say I have met him many times so know the personal face and the media face) which doesn't do anyone any favours. He still has a 70s 'everyone out' view of the world and things have moved on. How does he change that, who knows only he can moderate and change himself.Officers don't run, it's undignified and panics the men0 -
One thing you can always count on is that people who say "I'm leaving this thread now" never do
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bluesacs wrote:Well I'm going to show solidarity with the RMT and Mr Crowe and indeed Porgy, people should always try to better their conditions and unions are usually a good way of doing it. And sometimes you have to strike. There are a lot more effective unions in the world who get their members huge salaries, benefits and bonuses. So don't knock a union for asking for modest demands.
I'm reaching for my helmet now, not a silly bicycle helmet, but a proper steel one. To your positions!
Their demands are not modest though, they're unworkable - no redundancies ffs. That is a ridiculous request.
From the RMT website:On London Underground, bosses are threatening to tear up an agreement aimed at safeguarding jobs, and have refused to rule out compulsory redundancies. Up to 4000 jobs are at risk as part of a multi billion pound cuts package that can be traced directly back to the collapse of Metronet and the failure of the PPP.
C&G just let 1600 staff go as a result of the economy. It's not the fault of those made redundant but that's the way the world works.RMT have made it clear we expect managers to abide by agreements and we would simply not be doing our job as a union if we allowed the tube to treat our members as cannon fodder who can be hired at fired at will.
On pay, we have asked for the usual single year agreement. Tube chiefs attempted to impose a five year deal which would have meant real terms pay cuts into the next decade. We will not be bullied into accepting that our members should be forced to pay for an economic crisis that was cooked up by the bankers and the politicians.
No one can be hired and fired at will these days, but redundancies are inevitable in a recession regardless of what or who you blame for causing it. The whole country is suffering the after effects of the banking meltdown, why should RMT be exempt? Many people have taken pay cuts in order to keep their jobs. There's nothing special about RMT workers, in fact if there is any money for public services it should go to nurses who are criminally underpaid.RMT is committed to a modern and safe public transport system for Londoners. That cannot be achieved by axing jobs, slashing rates of pay and imposing massive cutbacks on the Tube.
Job cuts are often the price of modernisation, you might not like it but you've gotta lump it, many other industries have gone the same way. In fact by demanding more money and jobs for life the RMT are taking money away from LUL infrastructure.
Christ Crow really winds me up, and I don't even use the Tube unless I really really have to!- 2023 Vielo V+1
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NGale wrote:If it wasn't for the unions we would be in a far worse position than we are now, so yes they are needed. But I do think that Bob Crow is a liability to his own members. The vast majority are moderate hard working men and women who don't want to strike, but he comes across as a bully boy (as I say I have met him many times so know the personal face and the media face) which doesn't do anyone any favours. He still has a 70s 'everyone out' view of the world and things have moved on. How does he change that, who knows only he can moderate and change himself.
I've met Bob Crowe too - and I have to agree with you. I saw him behave in a very anti-democratic manner at one event and I was shocked that he got away with it. but he has a little 'mafia' around him and most people find them intimidating.
Someone accused me of having the same politics as Bob Crowe. Only a Tory could say this. Bob Crowe's brand of politics was the reason I intitially got involved in the Labour Party - to oppose it.
I also find it very difficult to defend the RMT - but do accept that a lot of good has come from RMT actions and day to work - especially on safety and technical improvements to the system.
Tubeworkers want the best for the tube, and Londoners should be grateful we give a shit, cos noone else does.0 -
Tube Travel is already massively overpriced and £40k a year is plenty for driving a sodding tube
£40K
WTF!!!
Porgy get the f*ck back to work! :evil:Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:Tube Travel is already massively overpriced and £40k a year is plenty for driving a sodding tube
£40K
WTF!!!
Porgy get the f*ck back to work! :evil:
Porgy aint a driver or a striker DDD, don't tar him with that brush.- 2023 Vielo V+1
- 2022 Canyon Aeroad CFR
- 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX
- Strava
- On the Strand
- Crown Stables
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jashburnham wrote:No one can be hired and fired at will these days, but redundancies are inevitable in a recession regardless of what or who you blame for causing it. The whole country is suffering the after effects of the banking meltdown, why should RMT be exempt? Many people have taken pay cuts in order to keep their jobs. There's nothing special about RMT workers, in fact if there is any money for public services it should go to nurses who are criminally underpaid.
It is essential that ALL public sector workers are kept on during a recession. Laying off public sector workers will save us nothing in the long term.
There are more than enough vacancies in the tube for everyone to get a job - even TfL admit this - the RMt merely want exisitng workers to get first chance at these jobs.
And its no good playing off nurses against tube workers, becasue I remember when they last went on strike and they were equally attacked in the press and by the Mail and Telegraph readers of this country.Job cuts are often the price of modernisation, you might not like it but you've gotta lump it, many other industries have gone the same way. In fact by demanding more money and jobs for life the RMT are taking money away from LUL infrastructure.
No - putting in and maintaining rail infrastructure is very labour intensive - you cannot play one off against the other i'm afraid.
There are no job cuts associated with modernisation on the cards - just cost cutting and corner cutting. Modernisation suits me just fine, I'm an engineer, but the cuts will mean less modernisation, not more.0 -
Porgy wrote:NGale wrote:If it wasn't for the unions we would be in a far worse position than we are now, so yes they are needed. But I do think that Bob Crow is a liability to his own members. The vast majority are moderate hard working men and women who don't want to strike, but he comes across as a bully boy (as I say I have met him many times so know the personal face and the media face) which doesn't do anyone any favours. He still has a 70s 'everyone out' view of the world and things have moved on. How does he change that, who knows only he can moderate and change himself.
I've met Bob Crowe too - and I have to agree with you. I saw him behave in a very anti-democratic manner at one event and I was shocked that he got away with it. but he has a little 'mafia' around him and most people find them intimidating.
Someone accused me of having the same politics as Bob Crowe. Only a Tory could say this. Bob Crowe's brand of politics was the reason I intitially got involved in the Labour Party - to oppose it.
I also find it very difficult to defend the RMT - but do accept that a lot of good has come from RMT actions and day to work - especially on safety and technical improvements to the system.
Tubeworkers want the best for the tube, and Londoners should be grateful we give a shoot, cos noone else does.
Oh yes, the RMT has done alot of good over the years, especially in the Maritime sector, making hotbunking on board RN (although if you are an RN serviceman you can't be a union member, but they do work together and talk) and RFA ships a thing of the past, helped in the modernisation of the RN, RFA and Merchant Navy, sectors which as an island nation we are very dependent on. But then this comes down to the local reps doing the hard work and not one mouthpiece at the top of the tree.
I just have a feeling these days that Bob Crow is so far to the left that he's coming back around to the right.Officers don't run, it's undignified and panics the men0 -
Porgy wrote:Headhuunter wrote:Just goes to show that perhaps you and other Tube workers have underestimated the tide of feeling on this. If the strike can stir up this amount of resentment on a cycling forum whose readers probably don't use the Tube anyway, imagine how Joe Public who needs the Tube daily feels!
but ask the question - in 20 years when investment has been run down to barely ticking over, and the service has reduced, the signalling systems are decades out of date again, failures increase and cannot be rectifiied quickly due to lack of skilled staff - who's going to get the blame.
It'll be the tube workers again. we can't win.
Don't take the blame then. Leave LU and get a better job elsewhere. Leave them to sort out their own mess. If the Tube really does descend into chaos as you claim it will, you can bet the public will have something to say about it.Do not write below this line. Office use only.0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:Tube Travel is already massively overpriced and £40k a year is plenty for driving a sodding tube
£40K
WTF!!!
Porgy get the f*ck back to work! :evil:
I wish I earned 40k - nowhere near i'm afraid.
some of you seem to be quite astoundingly ill informed - and willing to rant off from any snippet of misinformation.0 -
Headhuunter wrote:Don't take the blame then. Leave LU and get a better job elsewhere. Leave them to sort out their own mess. If the Tube really does descend into chaos as you claim it will, you can bet the public will have something to say about it.
But I don;t want the tube to descend into chaos so why would i go?0 -
NGale wrote:Porgy wrote:NGale wrote:If it wasn't for the unions we would be in a far worse position than we are now, so yes they are needed. But I do think that Bob Crow is a liability to his own members. The vast majority are moderate hard working men and women who don't want to strike, but he comes across as a bully boy (as I say I have met him many times so know the personal face and the media face) which doesn't do anyone any favours. He still has a 70s 'everyone out' view of the world and things have moved on. How does he change that, who knows only he can moderate and change himself.
I've met Bob Crowe too - and I have to agree with you. I saw him behave in a very anti-democratic manner at one event and I was shocked that he got away with it. but he has a little 'mafia' around him and most people find them intimidating.
Someone accused me of having the same politics as Bob Crowe. Only a Tory could say this. Bob Crowe's brand of politics was the reason I intitially got involved in the Labour Party - to oppose it.
I also find it very difficult to defend the RMT - but do accept that a lot of good has come from RMT actions and day to work - especially on safety and technical improvements to the system.
Tubeworkers want the best for the tube, and Londoners should be grateful we give a shoot, cos noone else does.
Oh yes, the RMT has done alot of good over the years, especially in the Maritime sector, making hotbunking on board RN (although if you are an RN serviceman you can't be a union member, but they do work together and talk) and RFA ships a thing of the past, helped in the modernisation of the RN, RFA and Merchant Navy, sectors which as an island nation we are very dependent on. But then this comes down to the local reps doing the hard work and not one mouthpiece at the top of the tree.
I just have a feeling these days that Bob Crow is so far to the left that he's coming back around to the right.
Unions certainly hav their place, but they can go overboard as they have here. This strike appears to be an attempt at getting ridulously good pay and conditions behind a thin veneer of supposedly upholding Tube safety standards for the poor public. I'm afraid I am sceptical. It's all about the money.Do not write below this line. Office use only.0 -
Porgy wrote:Headhuunter wrote:Don't take the blame then. Leave LU and get a better job elsewhere. Leave them to sort out their own mess. If the Tube really does descend into chaos as you claim it will, you can bet the public will have something to say about it.
But I don;t want the tube to descend into chaos so why would i go?
Do you really care that much? If you are really, seriously that public spirited, there are far, far better channels for your energy.Do not write below this line. Office use only.0 -
At least they're standing up for their rights.
The reason that fat cats shite on the lowly worker is because of the eradication of the unions and people standing up for a decent working standard.
It shouldn't be acceptable in any sector or industry that bonuses are paid the exec whilst the worker is laid off.
Lloyds shutting C&G is a prime example it shouldn't be accepted just because we're in a recession caused by the sodding hierarchy of the banking system. It'll be people like us laid off and worrying how to pay the mortgage.0 -
Headhuunter wrote:Porgy wrote:Headhuunter wrote:Don't take the blame then. Leave LU and get a better job elsewhere. Leave them to sort out their own mess. If the Tube really does descend into chaos as you claim it will, you can bet the public will have something to say about it.
But I don;t want the tube to descend into chaos so why would i go?
Do you really care that much? If you are really, seriously that public spirited, there are far, far better channels for your energy.
Not in my view - I've always been passionate about public transport. And cycling.
what do you think i should do instead? My qualifications and experience limit the possibilities surely?0 -
Gazzaputt wrote:At least they're standing up for their rights.
The reason that fat cats shite on the lowly worker is because of the eradication of the unions and people standing up for a decent working standard.
It shouldn't be acceptable in any sector or industry that bonuses are paid the exec whilst the worker is laid off.
Lloyds shutting C&G is a prime example it shouldn't be accepted just because we're in a recession caused by the sodding hierarchy of the banking system. It'll be people like us laid off and worrying how to pay the mortgage.
I was baffled that some seemed to think laying off public workers would help the recession - most likely would help deepen it.0 -
The tube isn't going to descend into chaos just because you go and get a job elsewhere, what a ridiculous thing to say.
And as for saying that you'll get the blame when an accident happens in future, well... Where to begin... Why not wait until the accident happens and worry about who gets the blame at the time? You can't start arguing about a mythical accident that might or might not happen in the future.0 -
jashburnham wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:Tube Travel is already massively overpriced and £40k a year is plenty for driving a sodding tube
£40K
WTF!!!
Porgy get the f*ck back to work! :evil:
Porgy aint a driver or a striker DDD, don't tar him with that brush.
I was only joking....
Wrong emoticon I guess....Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
Jamey wrote:The tube isn't going to descend into chaos just because you go and get a job elsewhere, what a ridiculous thing to say.
God - I knew someone would misinterpret what I said, and I knew it would be a moron.And as for saying that you'll get the blame when an accident happens in future, well... Where to begin... Why not wait until the accident happens and worry about who gets the blame at the time? You can't start arguing about a mythical accident that might or might not happen in the future.
a voice from complete idiocy :roll:0 -
Porgy wrote:It is essential that ALL public sector workers are kept on during a recession. Laying off public sector workers will save us nothing in the long term.
Wooaahhhh! :shock:
The seventies called to say they'd like their crazy working attitudes back.
I suppose paying public sector to turn up and do nothing (if, in fact, there is nothing for them to do) is another sacred cow.0 -
Porgy wrote:Headhuunter wrote:Porgy wrote:Headhuunter wrote:Don't take the blame then. Leave LU and get a better job elsewhere. Leave them to sort out their own mess. If the Tube really does descend into chaos as you claim it will, you can bet the public will have something to say about it.
But I don;t want the tube to descend into chaos so why would i go?
Do you really care that much? If you are really, seriously that public spirited, there are far, far better channels for your energy.
Not in my view - I've always been passionate about public transport. And cycling.
what do you think i should do instead? My qualifications and experience limit the possibilities surely?
I don't know what yuo do, but it sounds like you are a qualified engineer. If so, there are surely hundreds of ethically concerned companies that are crying out for skilled help. If you're concerned about transport, there are plenty of transport consultancies which need engineering skills. You could even go overseas, I have a friend whose husband is an engineer with the UN in Africa providing much needed transportation advice in far worse of countries than the UK.
If yuo have studied for many years to qualify in something specialist, you have a very serious skill to offer, either for money or for the general good. Stop p*ssing it away at LU. You yourself claimed that many engineers left LU to larger firms like BT, so there is obviously a market for you out there. If the LU doesn't appreciate you, don't fight it, get out and go somewhere they will treat you with respect.Do not write below this line. Office use only.0 -
Porgy wrote:Headhuunter wrote:Just goes to show that perhaps you and other Tube workers have underestimated the tide of feeling on this. If the strike can stir up this amount of resentment on a cycling forum whose readers probably don't use the Tube anyway, imagine how Joe Public who needs the Tube daily feels!
but ask the question - in 20 years when investment has been run down to barely ticking over, and the service has reduced, the signalling systems are decades out of date again, failures increase and cannot be rectifiied quickly due to lack of skilled staff - who's going to get the blame.
It'll be the tube workers again. we can't win.
I must have missed the bit which explained that part of the strike was about investment in public transport infrastructure. I thought it was about pay rises and redundancy protection (in an economy where most of the people who pay for the tube drivers enjoy neither)
I'm not having a go, and I don't question the union's right (indeed duty) to demand good things for it's members. It's just it seems to me that the decision to take that argument all the way to a strike is a little insensitive in the current climate.0 -
Greg66 wrote:Porgy wrote:It is essential that ALL public sector workers are kept on during a recession. Laying off public sector workers will save us nothing in the long term.
Wooaahhhh! :shock:
The seventies called to say they'd like their crazy working attitudes back.
I suppose paying public sector to turn up and do nothing (if, in fact, there is nothing for them to do) is another sacred cow.
do you really think that LU is overstaffed? It has never been overstaffed - and isn't now.
Have you not read about the New Deal - and how empoying vast numbers of people to carry out important public works pulled US and the world out of the 30's depression?
Or is economics of the 80s and 90s much better option - three recessions in less than 30 years. I guess unregulated capitalism doesn't work too well does it?0 -
Greg66 wrote:Porgy wrote:It is essential that ALL public sector workers are kept on during a recession. Laying off public sector workers will save us nothing in the long term.
Wooaahhhh! :shock:
The seventies called to say they'd like their crazy working attitudes back.
I suppose paying public sector to turn up and do nothing (if, in fact, there is nothing for them to do) is another sacred cow.
Yeah! And Greg should know he was 42 back in the 70s!!!
Seriously though the recession and fear of redundancies has got the public sector running scared and doing silly things... stability and common sense is called for...Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
rhext wrote:Porgy wrote:I'm not having a go, and I don't question the union's right (indeed duty) to demand good things for it's members. It's just it seems to me that the decision to take that argument all the way to a strike is a little insensitive in the current climate.
I'm not defending the strike anymore - too dengerous, i'm just defending tube workers in general0 -
Headhuunter wrote:[I don't know what yuo do, but it sounds like you are a qualified engineer. If so, there are surely hundreds of ethically concerned companies that are crying out for skilled help. If you're concerned about transport, there are plenty of transport consultancies which need engineering skills. You could even go overseas, I have a friend whose husband is an engineer with the UN in Africa providing much needed transportation advice in far worse of countries than the UK.
If yuo have studied for many years to qualify in something specialist, you have a very serious skill to offer, either for money or for the general good. Stop p*ssing it away at LU. You yourself claimed that many engineers left LU to larger firms like BT, so there is obviously a market for you out there. If the LU doesn't appreciate you, don't fight it, get out and go somewhere they will treat you with respect.
nah - you're alright. 8)0 -
Porgy wrote:Greg66 wrote:Porgy wrote:It is essential that ALL public sector workers are kept on during a recession. Laying off public sector workers will save us nothing in the long term.
Wooaahhhh! :shock:
The seventies called to say they'd like their crazy working attitudes back.
I suppose paying public sector to turn up and do nothing (if, in fact, there is nothing for them to do) is another sacred cow.
do you really think that LU is overstaffed? It has never been overstaffed - and isn't now.
Have you not read about the New Deal - and how empoying vast numbers of people to carry out important public works pulled US and the world out of the 30's depression?
Or is economics of the 80s and 90s much better option - three recessions in less than 30 years. I guess unregulated capitalism doesn't work too well does it?
Those are examples of people being employed to undertake specific tasks. You're talking about retaining every public sector employee in their existing role, whether or not fulfilling that role would help pull the economy out of recession.
[As you may have guessed, I don't accept the premise that every public sector employee's continued discharge of their pre-recession role is essential to pull an economy out of a recession.
Embarking on large capex publicly funded jobs to stimulate the economy is one thing - but even then, although the funding may be public money, the workers may be private contractors. Giving all public sector employees sinecures is quite another.0
