tube strike and numpy cyclists

SmellTheGlove

Ride to work OK but more bikes than usual. Riding Staples Cnr to Thomas's hospital later this pm - at least they're expecting me down there...

Meanwhile, two colleagues here waiting for their bike2work vouchers are spitting feathers!

Eau Rouge

Porgy wrote:

I'm a tube worker - and I don't want to get into an argument - but I'd like to point out that I haven;t had a pay rise for three years, and despite getting paid for 35 hours I usually work about 45 / 50.

And despite this I'm facing redundancy anyway.

Do you seriously think thats unusual or unique?

weapons

Porgy wrote:

jashburnham wrote:

[And they want guarantees that there'll be no enforced redundancies. What f*cking planet do they live on? I have zero sympathy for them, paid more than nurses as it is. Not to mention that this whole thing started as they were cross 2 members were sacked, one for theft, one for opening the doors on the wrong side then lying about it! Greedy, selfish c*nts. They can F*CK right off the lot of them.

I'm a tube worker - and I don't want to get into an argument - but I'd like to point out that I haven;t had a pay rise for three years, and despite getting paid for 35 hours I usually work about 45 / 50.

And despite this I'm facing redundancy anyway.

Sorry to hear that you hate us all so much.

Whoopie do. Lots of us work more than our contractual hours we don't get paid for and face redundancy in this current climate.

weapons

Porgy wrote:

jashburnham wrote:

[And they want guarantees that there'll be no enforced redundancies. What f*cking planet do they live on? I have zero sympathy for them, paid more than nurses as it is. Not to mention that this whole thing started as they were cross 2 members were sacked, one for theft, one for opening the doors on the wrong side then lying about it! Greedy, selfish c*nts. They can F*CK right off the lot of them.

I'm a tube worker - and I don't want to get into an argument - but I'd like to point out that I haven;t had a pay rise for three years, and despite getting paid for 35 hours I usually work about 45 / 50.

And despite this I'm facing redundancy anyway.

Sorry to hear that you hate us all so much.

Whoopie do. Lots of us work more than our contractual hours we don't get paid for and face redundancy in this current climate.

Headhuunter

Porgy wrote:

jashburnham wrote:

[And they want guarantees that there'll be no enforced redundancies. What f*cking planet do they live on? I have zero sympathy for them, paid more than nurses as it is. Not to mention that this whole thing started as they were cross 2 members were sacked, one for theft, one for opening the doors on the wrong side then lying about it! Greedy, selfish c*nts. They can F*CK right off the lot of them.

I'm a tube worker - and I don't want to get into an argument - but I'd like to point out that I haven;t had a pay rise for three years, and despite getting paid for 35 hours I usually work about 45 / 50.

And despite this I'm facing redundancy anyway.

Sorry to hear that you hate us all so much.

This is reality. I work at least 50 hours a week, earn about a third of what I did 2 years ago (banking and subsequently, my bonuses and basic salary, has fallen) and I was threatened with redundancy, a threat which has admittedly lifted for the moment. Wake up and smell the coffee and buckle down rather than throw your toys out ofthe pram and go on strike....

DonDaddyD

Porgy wrote:

jashburnham wrote:

[And they want guarantees that there'll be no enforced redundancies. What f*cking planet do they live on? I have zero sympathy for them, paid more than nurses as it is. Not to mention that this whole thing started as they were cross 2 members were sacked, one for theft, one for opening the doors on the wrong side then lying about it! Greedy, selfish c*nts. They can F*CK right off the lot of them.

I'm a tube worker - and I don't want to get into an argument - but I'd like to point out that I haven;t had a pay rise for three years, and despite getting paid for 35 hours I usually work about 45 / 50.

And despite this I'm facing redundancy anyway.

Sorry to hear that you hate us all so much.

If the person who opened the door on the wrong side was working longer hours than he should have been because of staff shortages then no I don't think he should have been sacked. If it was utterly his mistake then yes sack him. The guy that got done for theft, I'm not seeing how anyone could defend him actually.

I would like to read more of you opinion's though Porgy. I feel the tube workers have been mis and/or underrepresented by the press.

Clearly reports are biased against the tube strike and that isn't fair as we are only getting one side of the story.

NGale

Porgy wrote:

jashburnham wrote:

[And they want guarantees that there'll be no enforced redundancies. What f*cking planet do they live on? I have zero sympathy for them, paid more than nurses as it is. Not to mention that this whole thing started as they were cross 2 members were sacked, one for theft, one for opening the doors on the wrong side then lying about it! Greedy, selfish c*nts. They can F*CK right off the lot of them.

I'm a tube worker - and I don't want to get into an argument - but I'd like to point out that I haven;t had a pay rise for three years, and despite getting paid for 35 hours I usually work about 45 / 50.

And despite this I'm facing redundancy anyway.

Sorry to hear that you hate us all so much.

I hate to say it, but as a Tube worker you get paid more (alot more) than I do as an NHS worker. In effect since I started work in the Prison Service and since my transition into the NHS over the past five years, I have in real terms had a pay cut.

I can see your reasons for striking. heck for years my father was an RMT member (Exeter number 2 branch, Devon General/Stagecoach) and union tutor, so I've grown up around the same old arguments and policies for the past 31 years. But sometimes the wider public good has to come into play and a little sense needs to come in, something which I'm afraid Bob Crow does not have in vast quantity(I've met the man many times, debated with him many times and he's never changed).

Alas the RMT have become so militant these days I can't see them gaining any public sympathy in future for any strike even if it was in the wider public interest.

I just feel for the tube workers who are caught between a rock and a hard place, being used by the union and being used by the management

paul.skibum

Yeah sadly Porge - no union protection in many industries and longer than contracted hours due to the expectations of management/pressures of work and the threats of cut backs mean that your union sponsored walk outs are hardly likely to win you any friends. It amounts to blackmail of London by a minority and doesn't exactly curry favour with your customers.

I dont use the tube and I inherently disagree with your unions actions.

As for the commute in - numpty peds is the problem - they walk around blinking int he daylight as though they have never been out of the tube station before and stumble blindly into the road - t*ssers

DonDaddyD

Headhuunter wrote:

Wake up and smell the coffee and buckle down rather than throw your toys out ofthe pram and go on strike....

I can't help feel that this attitude has led to English society loosing its ability to march, protest and strike. The inability to do so has, I feel, partly led to politicians taking the p*ss and getting away with it.

A good old proper march, protest and industrial strike is what is needed to give the Government and somewhat society as whole a proper kick up the butt!

always_tyred

Porgy wrote:

jashburnham wrote:

[And they want guarantees that there'll be no enforced redundancies. What f*cking planet do they live on? I have zero sympathy for them, paid more than nurses as it is. Not to mention that this whole thing started as they were cross 2 members were sacked, one for theft, one for opening the doors on the wrong side then lying about it! Greedy, selfish c*nts. They can F*CK right off the lot of them.

I'm a tube worker - and I don't want to get into an argument - but I'd like to point out that I haven;t had a pay rise for three years, and despite getting paid for 35 hours I usually work about 45 / 50.

And despite this I'm facing redundancy anyway.

Sorry to hear that you hate us all so much.

Could I ask - have you literally not had a pay rise, or not moved up an incriment and had only inflationary increases? Have you topped out the pay band for your job?

Sympathies at the long working hours, but do you have overtime provisions? A lot more jobs don't than do.

The problem with tube workers is not the right to strike, just the frequency with which the workforce avails itself of that right. How to T&C's compare to, for example, train drivers or bus drivers? Are they similar? Why don't the comprarable professions strike as often?

Its leverage - you have a militant (compratively) union that, judging by the frequency of threats of strike action, is obdurate and uncooperative and given to using the leverage that the tube service provides as a negotiating tactic.

Furthermore, the action repeatedly inconveniences millions of people and costs the economy tens of millions. For some reason, unions without this leverage appear not to strike as often.

Headhuunter

DonDaddyD wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Wake up and smell the coffee and buckle down rather than throw your toys out ofthe pram and go on strike....

I can't help feel that this attitude has led to English society loosing its ability to march, protest and strike. The inability to do so has, I feel, partly led to politicians taking the p*ss and getting away with it.

A good old proper march, protest and industrial strike is what is needed to give the Government and somewhat society as whole a proper kick up the butt!

I'm not saying people shouldn't protest about what they feel's wrong, heck, I quite actively campaign for environmental causes and am a fully paid up member of FoE and Greenpeace, but trying to squeeze more money and better conditions out of the public purse at a time when everyone else is struggling is pure arrogance and militancy.

Just as MPs shouldn't take the p*ss with expenses, why should Tube drivers have a better time of the recession at public expense?

Porgy

:shock:

Porgy

:?

Headhuunter

Porgy wrote:

weapons wrote:

Porgy wrote:

jashburnham wrote:

[And they want guarantees that there'll be no enforced redundancies. What f*cking planet do they live on? I have zero sympathy for them, paid more than nurses as it is. Not to mention that this whole thing started as they were cross 2 members were sacked, one for theft, one for opening the doors on the wrong side then lying about it! Greedy, selfish c*nts. They can F*CK right off the lot of them.

I'm a tube worker - and I don't want to get into an argument - but I'd like to point out that I haven;t had a pay rise for three years, and despite getting paid for 35 hours I usually work about 45 / 50.

And despite this I'm facing redundancy anyway.

Sorry to hear that you hate us all so much.

Whoopie do. Lots of us work more than our contractual hours we don't get paid for and face redundancy in this current climate.

Do something about it then.

since I started working in this industry - in the 1980s - I have seen various industries stand up for theif pay and conditions only to be shot down by others - envy plays a part - not wanting to see others get more than them.

If you want public sector services to be of quality then you need quality staff. If you can't pay them industry rates (there was a time we lost all our talented engineers to BT and other public sector organisations) then there have to be other benefits, such as job security.

My company lost a lot of talent in the 90s and will do again now - so I guess some of you out there will be happy to see the quality of tube's service decline. Never mind our safety record which is world class - entirely due to the efforts of the unions - managers are geenrally happy to cut corners on these things.

Or do you think a few accidents are OK as long as the tube workers are suitably punished for their "militancy"?

Well equally if you're so upset by your treatment working on the Tube and you really can get such a fantastic deal at BT or wherever, then change jobs! That's what the free market is all about - go where the money is, if that's what's important to you. If all the Tube's engineers upped and left then managers would have to do something about it. Going on strike simply because you can hold the public to ransome simply inconveniences and annoys everyone, it's not surprising everyone feels the way they do!

Headhuunter

Porgy wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Wake up and smell the coffee and buckle down rather than throw your toys out ofthe pram and go on strike....

I can't help feel that this attitude has led to English society loosing its ability to march, protest and strike. The inability to do so has, I feel, partly led to politicians taking the p*ss and getting away with it.

A good old proper march, protest and industrial strike is what is needed to give the Government and somewhat society as whole a proper kick up the butt!

I'm not saying people shouldn't protest about what they feel's wrong, heck, I quite actively campaign for environmental causes and am a fully paid up member of FoE and Greenpeace, but trying to squeeze more money and better conditions out of the public purse at a time when everyone else is struggling is pure arrogance and militancy.

Just as MPs shouldn't take the p*ss with expenses, why should Tube drivers have a better time of the recession at public expense?

it's not better money and conditions - after being shunted into the private sector and then back again TfL are trying to pull a fast one - forcing reduced condtions and reduced pay (0.5% rise is reduced pay in anyone's books).

Some of us have had our pay whittled to the point where we can barely afford mortgage, council tax, etc. never mind the extras that make life worth living.

Som of us have lost their jobs completely. Try paying the mortgage on diddly squat.

Porgy

:twisted:

Harry B

DonDaddyD wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Wake up and smell the coffee and buckle down rather than throw your toys out ofthe pram and go on strike....

I can't help feel that this attitude has led to English society loosing its ability to march, protest and strike. The inability to do so has, I feel, partly led to politicians taking the p*ss and getting away with it.

A good old proper march, protest and industrial strike is what is needed to give the Government and somewhat society as whole a proper kick up the butt!

Yeah right. In the middle of a global recession lets all go on strike and show foreign investors that they should take their money elsewhere :?

The country can still march when it feels the need too (i.e. march on war in Iraq) but it doesn't feel the need to march against something which essentually is out of the government's control (notwithstanding the fact the society was until recevtn times actually pretty prosperous). Second point about giving the government a kicking, have you read the press lately or watched Newsnight? The government is the closest it has been to collapse in recent years and labour's chances of retaining power look almost non-existent.

As for the tube drivers, compare their wages and conditions to bus drivers who do a broadly similar (though more difficult) job. Tube drivers are overpaid for what they do. Its a simple as that and Bob Crow needs to realise that. How can any employer give a promise of no redundancies :shock:

FFS Crow open your eyes and see the real world.

Sorry, rant over :oops:

Porgy

:?

simon_ramsey

Porgy can you confirm if you are on strike today or support the cause of your fellow workers but didn't want to lose 2 days pay as I am confused by this somewhat conflicting post on the "Tube Strike !!!" thread ??

Porgy wrote:

Smugness factor 0.

Bike is out of action.

I took public transport.

:evil: to the posh tw@t who "accidentally" hit me with his walking stick and refused to apologise. That's the City for you though.

Porgy

8)

Headhuunter

Porgy wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Well equally if you're so upset by your treatment working on the Tube and you really can get such a fantastic deal at BT or wherever, then change jobs! That's what the free market is all about - go where the money is, if that's what's important to you. If all the Tube's engineers upped and left then managers would have to do something about it.

They did already - and managers did do something - trouble is now we've gone in a full circle.

And - I'm concerned about the industry not myself. If I move to a private sector job that still doesn't help the industry does it? Or am I supposed to be utterly selfish.

Well if that's the way the market goes, that's the way it goes. Leave if you don't like it. You claim that everyone left the Tube because they had better offers elsewhere, it seem to me that there are no better offers elsewhere so Tube workers have to resort to militancy to get what they want rather than follow market forces as the rest of us do.

Going on strike simply because you can hold the public to ransome

Meaningless stock Daily Mail phrase

simply inconveniences and annoys everyone, it's not surprising everyone feels the way they do!

But most people aren't angry - I've heard mixed comments.

All I've heard is anger, here and on many forums. I think a few years ago when Crow started his strikes, people had some sympathy, now people are just amazed at his gall. The only reason that Tube workers are able to strike like this is due to decades old ties to the public sector and left wing politics which have allowed anachronisms like the RMT to retain as much power as they have.

Anyway I don't know why I'm so bothered. I have voted with my feet and market forces. I use the Tube perhaps once per month otherwise I use alternative transport, like my bike.

il_principe

DonDaddyD wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Wake up and smell the coffee and buckle down rather than throw your toys out ofthe pram and go on strike....

I can't help feel that this attitude has led to English society loosing its ability to march, protest and strike. The inability to do so has, I feel, partly led to politicians taking the p*ss and getting away with it.

A good old proper march, protest and industrial strike is what is needed to give the Government and somewhat society as whole a proper kick up the butt!

Disagree. We're perfectly capable of marching and protesting - look at the Iraq war and the Hunting act, look at the furore over expenses. Nothing wrong with protest, but striking? No thanks, we live in a modern world and the likes of Crow need to wake up to reality. The RMT are an anachronism, at the very least they should kick Crow out and get someone with a more reasoned outlook. Most professions manage perfectly well without resorting to bully boy union tactics. As for Porgy's point about service on the tube, the RMT care not a jot for service or quality, they like to dress strikes up with comments about safety but it's nothing more than a smokescreen - the better their members are paid the less money there is for upkeep & modernisation. Tube Travel is already massively overpriced and £40k a year is plenty for driving a sodding tube, it can't be as stressful as say nursing or even driving a bus in London traffic. If they don't like the pay, redundancy policy, hours etc then they should find another job. Thing is they'd find life in the private sector can be a damn sight less secure. Asking for a payrise ATM is just f*cking shameful. I just feel sorry for the frontline staff who get it in the neck because of their greedy colleagues.

Porgy

Harry B

Porgy wrote:

Harry B wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

FFS Crow open your eyes and see the real world.

Sorry, rant over :oops:

I think it's you in a fantasy world trying to deny that some workers have retained the power to stand up to their bosses.

I don;t like Bob Crow - but so far - he's always won his battles.

So you've mentioned not wanting to be selfish but are quite happy for the city and all those who work in it to be held to ransome because you want a guranteed job and a pay rise when almost evryone else it taking a pay cut or losing thier jobs?

Shouldn't you be sitting on a pucket line with your pals?

Oh as for your point about the engineers I know several who work on the underground and they seem to be doing very very well and a lot better than most

Porgy

daviesee

Porgy,

I have been made redundant 8 times.

Of those 8, I only got redundancy pay for 2.

Of those 2, the highest payout was £3500, not bad for 4 years service, and that included pay in lieu. What will the tube workers receive?

No-one has a job for life any more. Just ask Gordon Brown.

MTFU

always_tyred

Porgy wrote:

(0.5% rise is reduced pay in anyone's books).

Um. That's a telling statement, and a misconception. Its a 0.5% pay rise. Sub inflationary last year (what was it last year by the way?) and likely above inflation this year. It sounds as though your salary is adjusted according to an inflationary index. That's excellent - mine isn't.

You indicate that your pay has been erroded since the 1980's. How does it compare to (for example) teachers and nurses now, and how did it compare then? I'm not sure, but it may not have changed very much. Everything is expensive in the UK. Houses are small and salaries relatively small compared to the cost of houses. Fuel is imported and the cost is accordingly high. Everyone feels this. Too many people imagine that they are the only ones feeling the pinch. I guarantee you that a person doing the job I did (or, a better example would be the one I left) would have a smaller house filled with far more useless material trinkets than the person doing the same job 30 years ago. That's Britain for you. The cost of housing has outstripped wages 5 fold.

Besides, the argument is not about the T&C's necessarily. No one on the outside can adequately assess what is going on and the court of public opinion is not terribly informative. However, why is there an actual strike? Why not arbitration? Oh, "talks have broken down" I see.

You know what that means? Two groups of opposed alpha males on a power trip don't want to back down. The public rightly won't much care if its the unions of the management who got huffy and walked out, because they rightly observe that no matter who it was, they don't much care for the public.

For that reason, sympathy will be hard to come by I'm afraid.

simon_ramsey

Perhaps if the government hadn't sp**nked so much money up the wall bailing out the private sector when PFI turned to a pile of sh*te then there would be money for safety improvements and a reasonable - i.e 1-2% settlement for the RMT.

Similar story with the 10bn shortfall with the NHS ?? Managed to find 10 x that to bail out the banks

Headhuunter

Porgy wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Porgy wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Well equally if you're so upset by your treatment working on the Tube and you really can get such a fantastic deal at BT or wherever, then change jobs! That's what the free market is all about - go where the money is, if that's what's important to you. If all the Tube's engineers upped and left then managers would have to do something about it.

They did already - and managers did do something - trouble is now we've gone in a full circle.

And - I'm concerned about the industry not myself. If I move to a private sector job that still doesn't help the industry does it? Or am I supposed to be utterly selfish.

Well if that's the way the market goes, that's the way it goes. Leave if you don't like it. You claim that everyone left the Tube because they had better offers elsewhere, it seem to me that there are no better offers elsewhere so Tube workers have to resort to militancy to get what they want rather than follow market forces as the rest of us do.

Going on strike simply because you can hold the public to ransome

Meaningless stock Daily Mail phrase

simply inconveniences and annoys everyone, it's not surprising everyone feels the way they do!

But most people aren't angry - I've heard mixed comments.

All I've heard is anger, here and on many forums. I think a few years ago when Crow started his strikes, people had some sympathy, now people are just amazed at his gall. The only reason that Tube workers are able to strike like this is due to decades old ties to the public sector and left wing politics which have allowed anachronisms like the RMT to retain as much power as they have.

Anyway I don't know why I'm so bothered. I have voted with my feet and market forces. I use the Tube perhaps once per month otherwise I use alternative transport, like my bike.

I'm not talking about internet forums - I'm talking about real people.

I'm a real person and I'm on an internet forum (pinches self - yup, definitely real) and I would guess that most of the others here are too. Try looking at comments added to internet articles on the Evening Standard and other news sites following articles about the Tube. Sympathy accounts for a tiny percentage of people's views.

always_tyred

Porgy wrote:

I don;t like Bob Crow - but so far - he's always won his battles.

Does this mean he was right, or does it just mean he won?

NB: how much did he win you , and how much did you lose striking? worth looking into that, in case you are being subject to the whim of someone who loves the buzz of a good argument and who is costing you money (but not himself, naturally).