Lemond at Play the Game conference
Comments
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markwalker wrote:andrewgturnbull wrote:markwalker wrote:
Mark - let me ask you a question: If you realise that your attitude comes across as being racist, why do you persist with your signature line?
Cheers, Andy
Well my point is proved by your response. Scotts can be Scotts first and foremost and demand independance. Welsh can be Welsh and demand independance and no one calls them racist.. I on the other hand am English and to present myself as that first (due to liberal lecturing that has been recieved as fact by the intellectually limited non free thinking society that we live in) makes me appear like a raging racist.
Yet the reality is totally different. And i dont much care if people dont like that, its their problem.
So just for clarity: what you're saying is that you're not a 'raging racist', but don't mind being perceived as one?
Cheers, Andy0 -
camerone wrote:in scotland you buy scottish milk and scottish butter clearly labelled as such
in wales you buy welsh milk and welsh butter clearly labelled as such
in england you buy milk and butter. In england we dont feel the need to rabbit on about how english we are. in scotland last week i saw a headline saying 'scots caught up in hiloday fiasco' in england that same headline would have been 'brits caught up in holiday fiasco' (referring to english people not the same scots.)
scottish and welsh people seem deperate to ram home the fact they are not british they have their own identity.
Spot on0 -
andrewgturnbull wrote:markwalker wrote:andrewgturnbull wrote:markwalker wrote:
So just for clarity: what you're saying is that you're not a 'raging racist', but don't mind being perceived as one?
Cheers, Andy
No, what Im saying is that i dont care if you haven't the intellect to see that.0 -
I will have six penneth of this.markwalker wrote:camerone wrote:in scotland you buy scottish milk and scottish butter clearly labelled as such
in wales you buy welsh milk and welsh butter clearly labelled as such
in england you buy milk and butter. In england we dont feel the need to rabbit on about how english we are. in scotland last week i saw a headline saying 'scots caught up in hiloday fiasco' in england that same headline would have been 'brits caught up in holiday fiasco' (referring to english people not the same scots.)
scottish and welsh people seem deperate to ram home the fact they are not british they have their own identity.
Spot on
I watched a cricket match the other day with England playing Pakistan and the crowd were all "British" but the Flags were not.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
markwalker wrote:andrewgturnbull wrote:markwalker wrote:andrewgturnbull wrote:markwalker wrote:
So just for clarity: what you're saying is that you're not a 'raging racist', but don't mind being perceived as one?
Cheers, Andy
No, what Im saying is that i dont care if you haven't the intellect to see that.
Ouch.
Because I disagree with you, my intellect is inferior?
I think you also missed Moray Gub's point that perception isn't about being right or wrong, but how you appear to other people. The presentation is imprtant as well as the content.
If you want to tackle the issue of English identity, I'd advise not doing it head on - getting people's backs up doesn't help you - not matter how superior your intellect. A good example of an oblique approach is the way that the 'cool brittania' marketing initiative used fashion and pop culture to reclaim the union jack from the nationalists.
Your point about Scots MPs in westminster (West Lothian Question) shows a little lack of understanding re the powers given to a devolved Parliament and those retained by Westminster. There arwe outstanding issues re voting on purely English matters, but Scots MPs often abstain from these votes. Regional assemblies in England may resolve this.
Cameronone - Cornish Pasties and Yorkshire puddings - lovely.
Cheers, Andy
(An englishman who's lived most of his life in Scotland)0 -
andrewgturnbull wrote:markwalker wrote:andrewgturnbull wrote:markwalker wrote:andrewgturnbull wrote:markwalker wrote:
So Ouch.
Because I disagree with you, my intellect is inferior?
Nope you can agree or disagree with me, it just doesnt matter.
However if i were in a position to make a change to society it would matter, and i would approach things with a view to achieving concencus in change.0 -
markwalker wrote:Moray Gub wrote:markwalker wrote:Moray, perhapos not those exact terms but if Mori asked 1000 people in London (home of many scottish people by the way) what would the answer be to these questions?
a, What is the Nationality of our Prime Minister?
b Would you consider Gordon Brown to be a tosser.
perhaps one eyed tosser would be more accurate.
First off i fail to see what his nationality has to do with being PM and secondly focusing on his disability says more about you than him.
Moray I object to so many Scottish MPs in the Parliament.
You also indicate that based on my views other individuals and their views are of more value. Your own position seems to be freedom of thought as long as its in line with mine.
The Scottish Westminster Mps represent the Scottish people in matters of among others defence,foreign policy and economic matters and if you had being paying attention you'd have noticed that the number has been reduced from 72 to 59 and will be reduced further probably to appease pople like you . I presume going by your comments you think the scottish people should not be represented on these matters at all ? You can think and say all you want but dont expect it not to be commented upon particularly when you use a persons disability to have a pop at him.Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
camerone wrote:in scotland you buy scottish milk and scottish butter clearly labelled as such
in wales you buy welsh milk and welsh butter clearly labelled as such
in england you buy milk and butter. In england we dont feel the need to rabbit on about how english we are. in scotland last week i saw a headline saying 'scots caught up in hiloday fiasco' in england that same headline would have been 'brits caught up in holiday fiasco' (referring to english people not the same scots.)
scottish and welsh people seem deperate to ram home the fact they are not british they have their own identity.
The paper in question is targetting its readership tho , common practice just like the London papers like the Evening Standard would say Londeners caught up in holiday fiasco, what do you think the regional TV stations ae doing when the present the local news ? BTW cant say ive seen or heard too many Scots say they are nor British you are just making that up to suit your arguement.Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
I accept all the legitmate complaint about the west lothian question above...but did Scotland have its majority voice heard in the westminster parliament through the 1980s? Of course not, hence the poll tax and consequently support for a Scottish parliament which may well lead to Scotland's independence in the future. Thatcher should be credited with the creation of the Scottish parliament and any future referendum result in favour of independence as much and more than other politicians. As for Mark Walker...well...if he thinks England is better off without Scotland then he's struggling in maths as well0
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Moray, look at how many Scottish ministers there have been at westminster over the last 10 years. Perhaps thyeve all been far more competent than the alternatives.
Of course all parts of Britain should be represented at Westminster especially on issues like defence. this isnt the point. Its also the case that many scots would broadly advocate independance, just look at the popularity of the SNP. Its also fair to say that many Scots are proud of the nationality and Scotishness, independant of or as a part of Britain or Europe. you only need to see your own location as part of that flagwaving.
It is therefore bizare that an Englishman should be criticised for his desire to do the same.0 -
Dave_1 wrote:I accept all the legitmate complaint about the west lothian question above...but did Scotland have its majority voice heard in the westminster parliament through the 1980s? Of course not, hence the poll tax and consequently support for a Scottish parliament which may well lead to Scotland's independence in the future. Thatcher should be credited with the creation of the Scottish parliament and any future referendum result in favour of independence as much and more than other politicians. As for Mark Walker...well...if he thinks England is better off without Scotland then he's struggling in maths as well
Dave, if youre going to dive in please try and grasp the point.
What maths is that then? The value of dwindling oil reserves? The net contribution Scottish banking giants are making? or something real like the value of a superb countryside? Im not suggesting independance for Scotland or England. I am saying that It should not be unusual or a crime to stand up and say I am English. And if you want to bring history into it, it was previous financial mismanagement in Scotland that led to its current position0 -
markwalker wrote:It is therefore bizare that an Englishman should be criticised for his desire to do the same.
The thing is you're both. You're English and British. Just like MG is Scottish and British.
Nationality - nonsense blinkin' idea anyway.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
iainf72 wrote:markwalker wrote:It is therefore bizare that an Englishman should be criticised for his desire to do the same.
The thing is you're both. You're English and British. Just like MG is Scottish and British.
Nationality - nonsense blinkin' idea anyway.
Yes but its time that an Englishman should be able to be described by being English not British, much like a Scot or a Welshman is be able to describe themselves as Scottish or Welsh. see Sean Connery et al
Ultimately we would have to describe ourselves as European and clearly there are differences. We can be European and British but Im not just British Im English which is a clarification of my Britishness. Hence Im English not British as a defining statement.0 -
The problem is, that's statement is wrong. You ARE British.
It's on your passport, as someone else pointed out earlier. You can already describe yourself as English, so what's the problem? I just don't see the point of making a big deal out of it.0 -
Ok at the risk of being considerd racist but to highlight the point.
A nabibian refugee who speaks little or no english, has no understanding of the history or England or Britain has no cultural ties and works as a goat herd gets given asylum and a british passport. Does that make him the same nationality as me if he lives in my road? and if he is, is that not even more reason to promote and preserve the definition and sanctity of Englishness?
So you see being English or Scottish or Welsh IS very important to many people irrespective of britishness or being European0 -
How many Scottish ministers were there when the last Conservative government was in power? Malcolm Rifkind and that was it. They struggled to find a Scottish Secretary given their lack of Scottish MPs.markwalker wrote:Moray, look at how many Scottish ministers there have been at westminster over the last 10 years. Perhaps thyeve all been far more competent than the alternatives.
The Labour Party's traditional power base is the working class parts of the UK and that includes a lot of Scotland, hence the number of Scottish ministers.
Regardless of this point, if you check Mr Rifkind's passport he'd be British, just like Mr Brown.0 -
markwalker wrote:Ok at the risk of being considerd racist but to highlight the point.
A nabibian refugee who speaks little or no english, has no understanding of the history or England or Britain has no cultural ties and works as a goat herd gets given asylum and a british passport. Does that make him the same nationality as me if he lives in my road? and if he is, is that not even more reason to promote and preserve the definition and sanctity of Englishness?
So you see being English or Scottish or Welsh IS very important to many people irrespective of britishness or being European
Hi Mark.
Despite your protestations, it didn't take long for your true colours to come out.
I'd advise you to stop digging now.
Cheers, Andy0 -
You didn't answer his question though, Andy.
If the Nabibian refugee was granted asylum in the UK and then claimed citizenship, he would have a British passport. Just like Mr Walker, so they would be the same nationality.0 -
andyp wrote:You didn't answer his question though, Andy.
If the Nabibian refugee was granted asylum in the UK and then claimed citizenship, he would have a British passport. Just like Mr Walker, so they would be the same nationality.
Yes, of course.0 -
Andy Murray. vehemently scottish not british in his own words. took me one second to think of him.Moray Gub wrote:camerone wrote:in scotland you buy scottish milk and scottish butter clearly labelled as such
in wales you buy welsh milk and welsh butter clearly labelled as such
in england you buy milk and butter. In england we dont feel the need to rabbit on about how english we are. in scotland last week i saw a headline saying 'scots caught up in hiloday fiasco' in england that same headline would have been 'brits caught up in holiday fiasco' (referring to english people not the same scots.)
scottish and welsh people seem deperate to ram home the fact they are not british they have their own identity.
The paper in question is targetting its readership tho , common practice just like the London papers like the Evening Standard would say Londeners caught up in holiday fiasco, what do you think the regional TV stations ae doing when the present the local news ? BTW cant say ive seen or heard too many Scots say they are nor British you are just making that up to suit your arguement.0 -
Just to confuse things if you were old enough to be born before Ireland became independant I believe you could also be Irish and British, although these numbers must be falling to almost zero by now.
By the way Tony Blair was scottish as well, but thats besides the point.
So was Lemond American Irish, Scottish or Italian then?
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Hi Mark.
Despite your protestations, it didn't take long for your true colours to come out.
I'd advise you to stop digging now.
Cheers, Andy
Again youre blind to what im saying because you only want to see what you think im saying. so again for clarity.
The newley British Namibian or American or Asutralian would still be Namibian, Australian or American and would have a life time of cultural references that were not indiginous to this Island. It doesnt make his or her beliefs and experiences wrong, nor does the colour of that persons skin but they are not indiginous or the same as mine. By acceptiung them as as "British" as me my own English roots are in danger of being thrown away and discrded to accomodate otheres unless, I can preserve that Englishness, which is exactly the process we see in Wales and Scotland but not in England. And part of that problem is the ease with which people such as yourself fail to recognise the validity of English nationalism0 -
eh wrote:Just to confuse things if you were old enough to be born before Ireland became independant I believe you could also be Irish and British, although these numbers must be falling to almost zero by now.
By the way Tony Blair was scottish as well, but thats besides the point.
So was Lemond American Irish, Scottish or Italian then?
I always though Tony Blair played that well to keep in with the Scottish Mafia0 -
markwalker wrote:Hi Mark.
Despite your protestations, it didn't take long for your true colours to come out.
I'd advise you to stop digging now.
Cheers, Andy
Again youre blind to what im saying because you only want to see what you think im saying. so again for clarity.
The newley British Namibian or American or Asutralian would still be Namibian, Australian or American and would have a life time of cultural references that were not indiginous to this Island. It doesnt make his or her beliefs and experiences wrong, nor does the colour of that persons skin but they are not indiginous or the same as mine. By acceptiung them as as "British" as me my own English roots are in danger of being thrown away and discrded to accomodate otheres unless, I can preserve that Englishness, which is exactly the process we see in Wales and Scotland but not in England. And part of that problem is the ease with which people such as yourself fail to recognise the validity of English nationalism
I understood you the first time - your views are quite clear.0 -
News just in....
SHOCK!!! HORROR!!! As Englishman is forced to live in oppressive British region??
Is it really that bad?0 -
markwalker wrote:Ultimately we would have to describe ourselves as European and clearly there are differences. We can be European and British but Im not just British Im English which is a clarification of my Britishness. Hence Im English not British as a defining statement.
I wasn't born in the UK but my parents are British. What does that make me? :P
In all seriousness, I think a lot of this is perception. I bet you many Scots will complain of the media reporting "British Gold medalist Chris Hoy", yet if it was Wiggins it would be "Englishman Wiggins"
There's also a problem where goons like Nick Griffin has associated english with something else which isn't a problem the Welsh and Scots suffer from particularly.
Why can't we all just get along?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
camerone wrote:Andy Murray. vehemently scottish not british in his own words. took me one second to think of him.
By "his own words" do you mean "words he never actually said"?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/2008/06/23/wimbledon-more-mature-andy-murray-ready-to-shine-115875-20618073/Twitter: @RichN950 -
andrewgturnbull wrote:markwalker wrote:Hi Mark.
Despite your protestations, it didn't take long for your true colours to come out.
the validity of English nationalism
I understood you the first time - your views are quite clear.
That the history and culture of my country is valid and that i should be able to express that, perhaps fly my flag without fear of persecution. these are the points i have been making all along despite the best efforts of name callers to hijak them. Unless Im wrong and there is no national identity. Perhaps Jews would consider themselves to be the same as Palestinians?
Or are you reduced to name calling?0 -
" I could have played football for England though I probably wouldnt have got in the team"
Errr me too 0
