BNP MEP voted in.

guinea

Robmanic1 wrote:

Sadly all this proves is that there are a lot of stupid people out there. I haven't researched it but I'm willing to bet that a large majority of their support comes from socially deprived areas.

You're right. But those are the same areas where the ethnic mix is highest.

So, it seems that in very 'diverse' areas high numbers of indigenous people leave (white flight) or vote BNP.

Why's that?

bobtbuilder

I am surpised by the furore on this forum about the BNPs election. Surely it was only a matter of time before this happened?

Whatever false nobility we like to bestow upon ourselves, nearly everyone will vote for the party and/or candidate which they feel best represents them and their interests.

Even before the current economic crisis and expenses scandals, Labour and the Conservatives had become much more similar in stance since the birth of "New Labour", and the days of them being polar opposites has well and truly passed.

Once you factor in the recession, jobs losses and now the expenses scandals, is it any surprise that much of the working class feels betrayed by it's traditional political party? This being the case, who do you realistically expect them to turn to? Conservatives (traditional enemy), Lib Dems, or perhaps a fringe party like the BNP who appear to value the same things as the disenfranchised working class?

Stories in the Daily Mail highlighting cases of immigrants being moved to the top of housing lists above British citizens, etc. only adds fuel to the fire.

If we really want to stop people voting for the BNP - give them a viable alternative.

spen666

Robmanic1 wrote:

"spen666 wrote:

It is a (sad) fact that those most vociferous against the BNP forget - namely they do enjoy popular support

All that calls for banning such a party do is to encourage people to support them

Sadly all this proves is that there are a lot of stupid people out there. I haven't researched it but I'm willing to bet that a large majority of their support comes from socially deprived areas. I'm sure the more enlightened among us (or perhaps the more fortunate) can see through their "window dressed" politics of fascism.

I agree they shouldn't be banned, that would be a form of fascism in itself. Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing as long as it doesn't conflict with our beliefs, eh!

[/quote]


Alternatively, it could be that the people who voted BNP do it out of an informed decision. You have no evidence whatsoever to back up your implication that those who voted for the BNP are stupid.

You have even less evidence to support the implication that those who voted for the BNP are stupid based on their coming from socailly deprived areas.

Have you ever stopped for a minute and thought that the BNP were the party offering those who voted something they wanted that the other parties were not offering?

robmanic1

You make valid points bobt, I don't think there's a great deal of surprise here (not from me anyway), more disappointment that it's come to this, and disappointment that people are so poorly educated/informed that they see the BNP as a valid option.
I suppose you could say that as a mid-earning, white male living in a predominantly white area, it's easy for me to take the moral high ground, but I do read and I do try to take in all the political party's policy's in order to make sure my cross goes in the right box(not as in far-right!), not from a personally beneficial standpoint, but from someone who has a vested interest in the future of this country, as a parent.

I still believe that the vast majority will see sense and the BNP will continue being a joke party for right-wing rascists with an unhealthy interest in German second world war memorabillia.

bobtbuilder

people are so poorly educated/informed that they see the BNP as a valid option

Rob - I am not a BNP supporter, but merely playing Devil's Advocate here, but I genuinely can't see another party representing the most underprivileged white British members of our society.

For me the disppointment is that the neediest members of our society do not have a political party championing them.

finchy

Why do people talk about the BNP representing the working classes anyway? Tell me one fascist party that has ever done anything except oppress the workers? I'm not going to go down the road of calling BNP voters stupid, but I find it depressing that people talk about an anti-working class party as the solution to the working classes being ignored.

Going back to communism, Marxism never got going in the Soviet Union because the ideology of the revolution was to create a society from which communism could arise - in other words to bypass capitalism by developing an industrial base out of a (mainly) peasant economy. Stalinism was the result.

Marxism wouldn't work in this country now because the means of production are, by and large, in Asia.

Still, the BNP got 8% of the vote, so it's only fair that they should get seats in the European Parliament. I just wish the Greens were as well represented in seats as they are in votes.

robmanic1

Spen, agreed, but you have no evidence to the contrary. Reading back through my comments stupid was perhaps the wrong word, ignorant may have been better. I was mearly suggesting that, due to lack of access to a decent education in deprived areas, the decision to vote BNP could have been made for the wrong reasons.

Frank the tank

Whilst I don't endorse the BNP, perhaps in the long run it's no bad thing a fringe fanatical party has gained a couple of seats.

The reason I say this is because it upsets the cosiness of the main parties, who, let's face it all p*ss in the same pot and empty it on the same people. Changing allegence from tory (blue rosette) to tory (red rosette) has no effect what-so-ever and it's carry on as you were. But when radical parties start getting elected it upsets the old boys club and they have to start thinking a bit more and stop taking our votes for granted.

spen666

Robmanic1 wrote:

Spen, agreed, but you have no evidence to the contrary. Reading back through my comments stupid was perhaps the wrong word, ignorant may have been better. I was mearly suggesting that, due to lack of access to a decent education in deprived areas, the decision to vote BNP could have been made for the wrong reasons.

I am not making any assertions about those who vote for the BNP- hence there is no evidence.

You make very derogatory and dare I saugggest insulting remarks about
a) those who vote for the BNP
b) those from socially deprived areas

You are suggesting wrong reasons for voting BNP. What are wrong reasons? Perhaps their reasons may not be the same reasoning as you or I employ but they are not wrong reasons- they are the reasons of the voters .


It is attitudes like yours thsat reinforce people's voting for extreme parties ( according to some commentators). You are demeaning and sidelining their views. When you do this, you may well push people further away from the mainstream of politics and into the extereme parties on both sides

robmanic1

I have no problem insulting the BNP, their policies or anyone that votes for them, I despise them and everything they stand for (not to be confused with everything they CLAIM to stand for).

My comments regarding those in deprived areas were explained further earlier, to clarify my point (my original choice of word was, on reflection, harsh).

You state my attitude reinforces peoples voting for extreme parties, how?
Anyone who shares the BNP's belief's are, in my opinion, rascist ,ignorant or misguided, and therefore the fact that there views are sidelined is of no real consequence.

Eau Rouge

These are votes for the European Parliament...they mean nothing.
The Parliament does very little other than spend a fortune on translation fees. It gets some little power to ammend directives but even those ammendments can be overruled by the CoM if they want. Does it do anything else?
The real power is with the Council of Minsiters, i.e. the elected governemnts of Europe, where is belongs.
This is why UKIP, a party who's whole existence is basically a lie (the lie that the EU forces countries to implement laws against their will) is even allowed to exist. If UKIP were likely to win real seats in Parliament come the general election, the party would be torn to shreds and exposed as the fraud it is. Instead, since they can barely save their deposits come general election night, the powers that be are happy to let them be an "escape valve" for unhappy voters in the (meaningless) EU Parliament elections.
This is true of fringe parties all over Europe, not just in the UK, and is why the EU Parliament isn't given much power. Well, that and the fact the EU isn't (and should never be) a country and so shouldn't be electing people to run it when it already has people with far better mandates running it already, the governments of Europe.

softlad

johnfinch wrote:

Marxism wouldn't work in this country now because the means of production are, by and large, in Asia.

ironically, mostly in China - a 'communist' country, where the workers almost certainly do not control the means of production..

finchy

guinea wrote:

So, it seems that in very 'diverse' areas high numbers of indigenous people leave (white flight) or vote BNP.

Why's that?

That's because immigrants into this country move into the poorest areas. When people can afford to get out of these crapholes, they will.

guilliano

In a way, having worked in Luton for a fair while I can understand some people voting BNP. Please don't mistake this for my condoning it though. When I worked in Luton I dealt with a lot of people who refused to learn to speak English having lived in the country for a number of years. I also had to deal with a fair amount of "reverse"(?) racism where indiginous white people were marginalised and abused or even threatened and in some cases assaulted whilst racist language was used towards them. Many of the people who acted in this way lived in an almost exclusively Asian community primarily in council housing that was not available to people born and bred in the UK. The majority of the "Asian community" in Luton is happily integrated into the UK, but it's the minority that aren't, or refuse to be, that catch the attention and as such send people off to vote for parties such as the BNP

jimmypippa

spen666 wrote:

You make very derogatory and dare I saugggest insulting remarks about
a) those who vote for the BNP
b) those from socially deprived areas

b) Is (potentially)* valid.

a) Is not:

Either the person votes for the BNP because they understand what it stands for, or they voted for the BNP yet don't understand what it stands for.

Either is worthy of condemnation in my book.


*I am not going to discuss whether it is actually valid in this case.

teagar

spen666 wrote:

teagar wrote:

Just heard that Yorkshire and Humberside have voted a BNP MEP in Andrew Brons, at the expense of a Labour MEP.

He's got a shady past with the BNF, where he, apparantly, said he'd rather go to prison than have blacks in his meetings...(according to the BBC).

I can't tell you how much this makes my stomach turn.

Another person who thinks its not right that the people of the democracy vote for the candidate they chose to vote for rather than the ones teagar approves of.


:shock:

I don't think you quite understand.

I'm upset that people voted for him. I'm not upset that BNP members stood for candidacy. I'm upset that enough people agreed with the BNP policies to vote for them so that they now have two MEPs in Europe. I'm entirely entitled to that opinion?

I never said I didn't think it was right that people voted for the BNP or indeed any other party. I think it's a very sad state of affairs when people feel the need to vote a party such as the BNP.

Honestly, :roll:

teagar

johnfinch wrote:

Why do people talk about the BNP representing the working classes anyway? Tell me one fascist party that has ever done anything except oppress the workers? I'm not going to go down the road of calling BNP voters stupid, but I find it depressing that people talk about an anti-working class party as the solution to the working classes being ignored.

Going back to communism, Marxism never got going in the Soviet Union because the ideology of the revolution was to create a society from which communism could arise - in other words to bypass capitalism by developing an industrial base out of a (mainly) peasant economy. Stalinism was the result.

Marxism wouldn't work in this country now because the means of production are, by and large, in Asia.

Still, the BNP got 8% of the vote, so it's only fair that they should get seats in the European Parliament. I just wish the Greens were as well represented in seats as they are in votes.

Marxism is no longer a powerful force in British politics, so the 20th Century example doesn't really fit.

The voting isn't for a "Fascist party", which argues for a third economic way of corporatism which is what literal fascist parties do.

The BNP is more or less an exclusively race based party. They deliniate and define the world in terms of race, and then argue, within that construct, that the white anglo-saxon in the UK (who they define themseves), who, they deem to have legitimacy in the UK since they are "indigenous", are discriminated against.

They also argue that racial homogenity is key to national identity and social coherence.

They're therefore just an entirely racist organisation, as opposed to a 1930s Fascist organisation.

dicer

Why oh why do folks always bring up the language issue, I do understand the need for all comers to be able to communicate in the langauge of the country in which they choose to reside. The fact that there has been Greeks, Italians, Cypriots and various other immigrant communities that still have a propotion of their communities that cannot speak the langauge of their country of residence-Which can also be applied to lots of English folk living abroad, so why select the Asians for the treatment, we start with one group but eventually move on to the next. History has shown us the inevitable outcome of that journey.
In terms of the BNP, they will go as far as we let them. We should not be afraid to let democracy work, if some people in this country truely believe that the message of the BNP represents what they believe, why shouldn`t they vote for them. I just wish those who vote for the BNP would admit to their choices. I can understand why some would vote for such parties and would gladly engage in debate with them, If only to put my view across that what the BNP represents is a narrow minded view of the world where we would find it almost impossible to progress without the input from our fellow man, whatever race,creed or something saucy for the weekend!

finchy

teagar wrote:

The voting isn't for a "Fascist party", which argues for a third economic way of corporatism which is what literal fascist parties do.

The BNP is more or less an exclusively race based party. They deliniate and define the world in terms of race, and then argue, within that construct, that the white anglo-saxon in the UK (who they define themseves), who, they deem to have legitimacy in the UK since they are "indigenous", are discriminated against.

They also argue that racial homogenity is key to national identity and social coherence.

They're therefore just an entirely racist organisation, as opposed to a 1930s Fascist organisation.

That's what the BNP says, but have a look at their manifesto (available on the website). They make a lot of very vague promises, most of which would justify them taking over every aspect of national life (for example removing democratically elected union leaders and replacing them with "patriotic" ones). Textbook manifesto for creeping fascism I'd say.

balthazar

guilliano wrote:

I I also had to deal with a fair amount of "reverse"(?) racism where indiginous white people ...

It's "just" racism, no prefix needed. Neither the term nor the concept need a familiar majority. Phrases such as "reverse" racism implicitly support the concept that racism is simply a stick used by a strong majority, rather than a prejudice borne of ignorance.

Also, a mongrel island like the UK doesn't really have an indigenous race, notwithstanding that race is such a superficial characteristc is not recognised as a scientific distinction.

For all that: point taken!

softlad

balthazar wrote:

It's "just" racism, no prefix needed. Neither the term nor the concept need a familiar majority.

exactly - makes it sound like white people invented it. oh hang on, we did.......

teagar

johnfinch wrote:

teagar wrote:

The voting isn't for a "Fascist party", which argues for a third economic way of corporatism which is what literal fascist parties do.

The BNP is more or less an exclusively race based party. They deliniate and define the world in terms of race, and then argue, within that construct, that the white anglo-saxon in the UK (who they define themseves), who, they deem to have legitimacy in the UK since they are "indigenous", are discriminated against.

They also argue that racial homogenity is key to national identity and social coherence.

They're therefore just an entirely racist organisation, as opposed to a 1930s Fascist organisation.

That's what the BNP says, but have a look at their manifesto (available on the website). They make a lot of very vague promises, most of which would justify them taking over every aspect of national life (for example removing democratically elected union leaders and replacing them with "patriotic" ones). Textbook manifesto for creeping fascism I'd say.

That's not what they campaign on, so it isn't what the voters listened to. They won on a racial policy, not a old-skool fascist one.

geoff_ss

I live only about 3 or 4 miles from where the BNP had its camping weekend last year. I read that parts of Amber Valley are hot beds of far right racist groups like the BNP. I take no interest in Rock/Pop music but I hear there's a very popular far right rock group based here too. I despair.

What really puzzles me is that it's quite rare to see any non-white people in any of the market towns round here (Heanor, Ripley, Belper, Alfreton) so why is the BNP so popular? It may be because the traditional employer of many men was coal mining, now gone, and textiles for the women, also almost gone. There were 100s of Poles in the area immediately after the war. I think they stayed because of the communist takeover of Poland. Nobody made any big deal about it.

I was a Tory voter before Thatcher became leader. I felt anyone who could win the Sydney/Hobart ocean race - Heath - should be good to lead the country ) In fact I think Heath's Tories were to the left of New Labour! I've been a Labour voter since then but I voted Liberal for the council elections and Green for Europe.

Geoff

finchy

teagar wrote:

That's not what they campaign on, so it isn't what the voters listened to. They won on a racial policy, not a old-skool fascist one.

Yep, they're a bunch of liars.

Nick Griffin tells white supremacists that the BNP is changing it's tactics to conceal the real agenda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04QolIvfQEw

Nick Griffin denies the holocaust:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7Dygboz4Ew

bone_idle

I think this sums it up best

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/ ... 906081810/

Puts it in perspective :twisted:

Stone Glider

Relax, we've been here before; loads of times. Deeply unpopular government in mid-term, largely ineffective main oppositon party and an opportunity for people to express their dissatisfaction with everything!

European Elections are used, in England as a chance to have a moan with no (percieved) consequences. Few people even know who their MEP is, let alone the party they represent. It is seen as irrelevant to voters' lives.

I read the obituary of another British proto-fascist leader of the second half of the twentieth century lately, Tyndalll? A story of thwarted ambition and profound irrelevance with the usual factionalism thrown in for good measure. These people must be taken seriously but don't over-estimate their importance, it really is cyclical.

There, I managed to get it back to bikes

guilliano

The real point of what's happened at the elections is that the electorate have shown the current government that they are no longer wanted or trusted to do what is best for the country, and the current government is not listening.

Going back to the "reverse" racism thing.... I know it is just racism which is why I used inverted commas. It seems that as far as media and the authorities are concerned racism is a one way thing. In reality there is just as high a percentage of racist people of all nationalities/skin colours in the UK, but it's only widely reported/recognised from one group and the BNP play on this to enhance their agenda

beverick

Stone Glider wrote:

Relax, we've been here before; loads of times. Deeply unpopular government in mid-term, largely ineffective main oppositon party and an opportunity for people to express their dissatisfaction with everything!

European Elections are used, in England as a chance to have a moan with no (percieved) consequences. Few people even know who their MEP is, let alone the party they represent. It is seen as irrelevant to voters' lives.

Nah, this is different. The BNP have been making slow but progressive gains for the last ten years. What may be seen as a 'good showing' in the European elections gives them credibility.

This will most likely translate into more councillors at the local level and even the possibility of a seat in parliament in close run tory/labout seats should they be able to split the vote.

I also dispute the two earlier assertions that a) the EU elections are meaningless and b) proportional representation failed.

Firstly, unlike in the UK parliament EU legislators (ie the commission) can't force an act onto the statute should the MEPs vote against it or request amendments. Should parliament require, the european council must enter into a conciliation process. Unfortunately this gives us the potential for a US style legislature where parliament will only pass a bill if a suitable "sweetener" is drafted into the legistlation. There is, however, a fail-safe that the decision to adopt EU law into national statute lies with the member country.

Secondly, the earlier poster expressed the percentage of the vote on national terms which, had it been applied, would have resulted in a different allocation of seats. However, whereas the proportionality is quite clearly calculated locally (on a ward by ward basis). The process used gives the party (or parties) with the majority of the vote the most number of seats, the second most popular then gets a seat and so on until all of the votes are allocated.

In Y&H the process translated very roughly into needing very roughly more than 10% of the vote to be allocated a seat. The Conservatives sufficient votes to get two seats whilst labour, LDP, UKIP and the BNP got one each. Therefore, the many 'one man and their dog' parties that gained between .5 and 7.5% of the vote didn't get a seat.

Bob

Special K

dicer wrote:

Why oh why do folks always bring up the language issue, I do understand the need for all comers to be able to communicate in the langauge of the country in which they choose to reside. The fact that there has been Greeks, Italians, Cypriots and various other immigrant communities that still have a propotion of their communities that cannot speak the langauge of their country of residence-Which can also be applied to lots of English folk living abroad, so why select the Asians for the treatment, we start with one group but eventually move on to the next. History has shown us the inevitable outcome of that journey.
In terms of the BNP, they will go as far as we let them. We should not be afraid to let democracy work, if some people in this country truely believe that the message of the BNP represents what they believe, why shouldn`t they vote for them. I just wish those who vote for the BNP would admit to their choices. I can understand why some would vote for such parties and would gladly engage in debate with them, If only to put my view across that what the BNP represents is a narrow minded view of the world where we would find it almost impossible to progress without the input from our fellow man, whatever race,creed or something saucy for the weekend!

The person from Luton who mentioned the language issue, also said that it was accompanied by hostility.

Tell me, when was the last time you heard of anything like that from first generation Cypriot immigrants? Who, by the way, have good relations with their local community (including the Turks that live amongst them): I once saw a blue eyed blonde haired anglo-saxon green grocer on Green Lanes counting out change in Greek to little old Cypriot ladies. Whilst they may not speak as much English as their children, they are not trying to change British society and are more than happy for their children to integrate and do well within British society. And despite any lingering resentment about why they had to come here in 1974 and the British legacy in Cyprus, I think you will find they are not exploding any bombs. I wonder why that might be?

teagar

guilliano wrote:

Going back to the "reverse" racism thing.... I know it is just racism which is why I used inverted commas. It seems that as far as media and the authorities are concerned racism is a one way thing. In reality there is just as high a percentage of racist people of all nationalities/skin colours in the UK, but it's only widely reported/recognised from one group and the BNP play on this to enhance their agenda

When you are in the racial majority, in a society still dominated by people from that race, I think it's very difficult to argue that racism from other minorities against the majority is a serious problem.

There's a good reason it is the white-supremacist BNP getting MEP seats, as opposed to a Black-supremacist or any other racial party.