Will the madness stop Bike horror encounters

gethin.norman

roger merriman wrote:

if you go one some of the steeper hills in the beacons you'll be glad of it as well, uk seems to on the whole do short and sharp.

would disagree here, for the alps sure I can see the gains in a compact, but for brecon (and I am from wales) do not see the gains of a compact.

Honestly though I was just trying to point out the futility of the arguments - i see no problem with compacts (if you do not have the strength for proper gears), just as there is no problem having flat pedals. It is far too easy to criticise, far better to look for the good points...

lost_in_thought

DonDaddyD wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Now if you'd said it was being mistreated - rusty chain, wonky wheels, no care, then I'd be agreeing with you. It is a crime to treat any bike like that, even a BSO, but all the more so for a machine like that Wilier.

Your contradicting yourself here. Some would argue that having flat pedals is mistreating a bike of that calibre, price and design.

Boys, boys! It's a bundle of carbon and alloy, not a pony!

Personally I think you're daft. I like putting nice things on my nice bike, but I don't think everyone has to.

Maybe he has a medical reason. Maybe he's got the bike on C2W and is nervous of SPDs. Maybe he puts speedplays on it on the weekend but commutes on flats. Whatever the reason, if he wants flats let him have them! Poor sod. I'm going to go find him and give him a hug.

Later though, I really ought to go to work. :oops:

What pedals do you have on your made to measure maxima?

Did you use the same pedals as was on your Bowery?

Why did you make a thread asking what pedals?

Yeeeeees, but that's me! I had no reason not to use speedplays so I did...

He might have a reason, and whatever it is it's valid to him!

When I got back on the bike after doing my achilles I had to put flats on for some weeks - now back on SPDs - there's a medical example.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall wrote:

I disapprove of what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Now apply that to bikes...

roger_merriman

I don't think i've yet to spin out with on the 50/12 but i've used 34/27 okay i do go looking for steep hills, around breacon no there isn't from memory any thing too bad but other parts do have some steep ones lurking, climb up from LLangattock to the hafod and most will be looking for some low gears it's 688ft in3/4 of mile and by no means the steepest even in that valley.

il_principe

gethin.norman wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

if you go one some of the steeper hills in the beacons you'll be glad of it as well, uk seems to on the whole do short and sharp.

would disagree here, for the alps sure I can see the gains in a compact, but for brecon (and I am from wales) do not see the gains of a compact.

Honestly though I was just trying to point out the futility of the arguments - i see no problem with compacts (if you do not have the strength for proper gears), just as there is no problem having flat pedals. It is far too easy to criticise, far better to look for the good points...

That's a fairly assumptive statement! It's not necessarily about strength - Basso used a compact in the Giro one year and he's not exactly weak! It's more about preferred riding style (spin v grind). Anyway, a lot can depend on the cassette choice:

39/25 gives a GI of 41
34/23 gives a GI of 38.8

Not a huge amount in it.

Rockbuddy

DonDaddyD wrote:

Rockbuddy wrote:

@ DDD: So basically what you are saying is that you are used to clips / clipless and didn't like / get along with the flats?
So to answer my question was the Kharma on flats a worse ride than your SCR 3.0 with spds? OR to put it another way if you had to would you rather have your SCR 3.0 with clips than your Kuota Kharma with flats?

The above is solely dependant on the type of bikes we are comparing (which is my point). My Kharma rides and is designed to ride differently to the SCR.

My Kharma has a shorter wheelbase, shorter headtube, narrower bars and has a more aggressive riding position (much like an Izoard). My SCR is larger, longer wheel base, longer headtube and wider handle bars and has a more forgiving riding position. Less demanding pedals would suit my SCR over the Kharma.

I wouldn't however in any instance prefer to descend down hill or ride at speed on the SCR over the Kharma.

Come on help me out here, stop dancing answer a question for once - basically your Kharma's better no matter what pedals you put on right!?
But you wanted clipless 'cos in your opinion they are better and get the best out of the bike, so you got them...is that so hard to say

Fireblade96

Evelyn Beatrice Hall wrote:

I disapprove of what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

While I fully agree with free speech, I think what we've got here is more a case of

The Rolling Stones wrote:

But he can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke
The same cigarrettes as me

gethin.norman

taking this off topic (which can only be a good thing) do you not find that with a compact it is difficult to find the right gear for "normal" climbing?

With a 39 inner, I use the middle/top (small number of teeth) of the cassette which seems difficult to replicate using a compact. This is my main concern with compacts (not the loss of high gears)...

roger_merriman

gethin.norman wrote:

taking this off topic (which can only be a good thing) do you not find that with a compact it is difficult to find the right gear for "normal" climbing?

With a 39 inner, I use the middle/top (small number of teeth) of the cassette which seems difficult to replicate using a compact. This is my main concern with compacts (not the loss of high gears)...

can or rather used to happen yes. i have got used to the gearing so i tend to keep the bike in what ever chainring is a good idea and use the cassette more, with out mucking the chainline up too much.

CyclingBantam

batch78 wrote:

DDD, don't listen to these heathens, you are completely correct.

I am not a bike snob, nor a bike tart, but I do have respect and the fundamental understanduing of how a quality piece of equipment should be used.

Yes this man CAN use flats, but in doing so he has wronged.

+ 1,000,000

Feltup

For normal hill riding I find a compact with 11-23 is nicer than std with 12-27. For the Fred Whitton I had the compact with the 12-27 and needed it for Hardknott but the rest of the ride I wished I had the 11-23 on as the ratios just seem to work better.

il_principe

Rockbuddy wrote:

Come on help me out here, stop dancing answer a question for once - basically your Kharma's better no matter what pedals you put on right!?
But you wanted clipless 'cos in your opinion they are better and get the best out of the bike, so you got them...is that so hard to say

Not opinion - fact!

Feltup

Back on target and flat pedals are for short trip commuter bikes and mtn bikes/bmx. Full blown road bikes with flat pedals? Next you will be saying it is OK to wear a pair of Clarks shoes with a Gucci Suit!

gethin.norman

jashburnham wrote:

gethin.norman wrote:

Honestly though I was just trying to point out the futility of the arguments - i see no problem with compacts (if you do not have the strength for proper gears), just as there is no problem having flat pedals. It is far too easy to criticise, far better to look for the good points...

That's a fairly assumptive statement! It's not necessarily about strength - Basso used a compact in the Giro one year and he's not exactly weak! It's more about preferred riding style (spin v grind). Anyway, a lot can depend on the cassette choice:

39/25 gives a GI of 41
34/23 gives a GI of 38.8

Not a huge amount in it.

this was sarcasm but apologies if I angered any compact users. As i said else where my concern with a compact is the missing "middle" gears.

roger_merriman

jashburnham wrote:

Rockbuddy wrote:

Come on help me out here, stop dancing answer a question for once - basically your Kharma's better no matter what pedals you put on right!?
But you wanted clipless 'cos in your opinion they are better and get the best out of the bike, so you got them...is that so hard to say

Not opinion - fact!

indeed add a bit of rain and standing water you'll be sliding on most flats where as clipless you'll be just worring about the tires!

i'm assuming very very few would put MTB flats on....

fatgrimpeur

It's a bit like preaching about the aesthetics of a race bike on a commuting forum, isn't it.

It's the guys bike, therefore his business. Not yours.

Rockbuddy

jashburnham wrote:

Rockbuddy wrote:

Come on help me out here, stop dancing answer a question for once - basically your Kharma's better no matter what pedals you put on right!?
But you wanted clipless 'cos in your opinion they are better and get the best out of the bike, so you got them...is that so hard to say

Not opinion - fact!

Why is there not an emoticon that shakes it's head and then sighs deeply...no reason just wondering

I guess this will have to do :roll:

Rockbuddy

fatgrimpeur wrote:

It's a bit like preaching about the aesthetics of a race bike on a commuting forum, isn't it.

It's the guys bike, therefore his business. Not yours.

Brilliant!!!

EDIT: Although on the road bike forum this would have been 6 pages of WTF, how could he rather than the contentious debate it is here. All fun at the end of the day

jedster

I'm pretty sure I'll get a compact on my next bike - like the way you can easily switch from 11-23, 12-25, 12-27 to tailor the bike for the conditions.

I think though that for most conditions 50/36 would be better than 50/34 (and would remove all problems of "missing" gears.

Does a 36 inner ring work well on shimano compacts?

J

lost_in_thought

jedster wrote:

I'm pretty sure I'll get a compact on my next bike - like the way you can easily switch from 11-23, 12-25, 12-27 to tailor the bike for the conditions.

I think though that for most conditions 50/36 would be better than 50/34 (and would remove all problems of "missing" gears.

Does a 36 inner ring work well on shimano compacts?

J

Explain this 'missing gears' phenomenon to me... I have a compact 50/34, and (I think) an 11/27 11sp cassette...

jedster

Basically you find yourself switching between the inner and outer rings a lot. Imagine a long climb with steep sections intersperced with flat sections. With a 39/12 you can keep a decent pace on the flat sections without spinning out. With a 34 you quickly want to reach for the big ring. It's obviously nicer if you stick with one ring for the whole climb. I reckon a 36 ring would reduce this issue by a decent amount.

Of course your 11 speed cassette has a wider range (34/11 is similar, a little higher, than 36/12) which is another way to skin the cat (albeit quite pricey!).

J

DonDaddyD

Rockbuddy wrote:

Come on help me out here, stop dancing answer a question for once - basically your Kharma's better no matter what pedals you put on right!?

No.
Becuase of the ride characteristics I would prefer to have flats on the SCR than on the Kharma. This doesn't stop the Kharma being a better bike than my SCR, it just means its ill suited to flat pedals.

L_i_T quoted:
I disapprove of what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Short sighted, self righteous and blinkered. I can think of several instances where the above is wrong. If it wasn't we should allow Muslim Etremists the right to march, protest and spread the justification of terrorism against the West. :roll:

Right to say it my a*se.

Rockbuddy

jedster wrote:

Basically you find yourself switching between the inner and outer rings a lot. Imagine a long climb with steep sections intersperced with flat sections. With a 39/12 you can keep a decent pace on the flat sections without spinning out. With a 34 you quickly want to reach for the big ring. It's obviously nicer if you stick with one ring for the whole climb. I reckon a 36 ring would reduce this issue by a decent amount.

Of course your 11 speed cassette has a wider range (34/11 is similar, a little higher, than 36/12) which is another way to skin the cat (albeit quite pricey!).

J

Don't do much climbing but find it easier to stick in a fairly central position at the back (not sure of the gear 12-27 shimano cassette) and switch between the 39 and 53 at the front (depending ont the gradient). Otherwise seems you are paying with the back shifter too much. Also using inner at the front and outer at the back (39 / 12) seems to be crossing the gears a bit much, i.e. the chain is way out of line if not rubbing on the front mech. Not really sure if this is right, as I have very little road bike experience.

robmanic1

DDD, step away from the "freedom of speech as long as it doesn't interfere with my beliefs" can of worms.

Rockbuddy

DonDaddyD wrote:

Rockbuddy wrote:

Come on help me out here, stop dancing answer a question for once - basically your Kharma's better no matter what pedals you put on right!?

No.
Becuase of the ride characteristics I would prefer to have flats on the SCR than on the Kharma. This doesn't stop the Kharma being a better bike than my SCR, it just means its ill suited to flat pedals.

So basically YES the Kharma is better than the SCR no matter what pedals are on it?

Like blood from a stone....

jedster

Also using inner at the front and outer at the back (39 / 12) seems to be crossing the gears a bit much, i.e. the chain is way out of line if not rubbing on the front mech. Not really sure if this is right, as I have very little road bike experience.

Not much of an issue with a double - shouldn't rub. Obviously, you wouldn't want to use it as a standard cruising combination but works fine. More of an issue on a triple - probably where you are coming from.

In general you want to use the back shifter because those changes work much better under load than the front ones - hence basic idea is to pick the ring to suit the general terrain then fine tune with the cassette.

J

lost_in_thought

DonDaddyD wrote:

L_i_T quoted:
I disapprove of what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Short sighted, self righteous and blinkered. I can think of several instances where the above is wrong. If it wasn't we should allow Muslim Etremists the right to march, protest and spread the justification of terrorism against the West. :roll:

Right to say it my a*se.

My god, DDD, I know you like to 'debate' (as you put it) - but try to take things a little less seriously once in a while. I hardly think the issue of flats on a Wilier whatever-it-is is comparable to Muslim Extremism. :roll:

jedster

So basically YES the Kharma is better than the SCR no matter what pedals are on it?

Personally I'd be really surprised if DDD on SCR/clipless could not do a faster time on a loop than DDD on the karma/flats. Really surprised.

J

DonDaddyD

I have a compact with a 12 -27 rear cassette.

I do find the 34 a little small throughout the range, but it's a gem for climbing and the 50 is great for everything else.

I do miss the upper limits of speed as a guy on a Dolan Hercules demonstrated as I tried to chase him along Sawyers Hill at Richmond Park....

I may change the rear cassette to something smaller.

il_principe

Rockbuddy wrote:

Don't do much climbing... I have very little road bike experience.

So why are you so determined that there is little diff between flats and clipless on a roadbike then? Look at any lycra'd up roadies you see - I reckon 95% will be clipless and for good reason.

gethin.norman

what about if you shave your legs and use flat pedals. Do they cancel each other out?