Bye bye Astana?
Comments
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Well it had Harmon fooled - he was clearly convinced they were about to announce the birth of Team Livestrong
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Blazing Saddles wrote:HUGE news coming in a few minutes.......over two hours ago? :?
Now, I'm reading a rumour that the Kazakh petrolium boys are stumping up the cash owed and Astana will remain.
Watch this space, I suppose........
If I'd had to guess, I would have said the same. A bit excitable for an old geezer.....micron wrote:Arkibal, take this as you wish, but you always come across as a tennage boy to me
.....then again, so is Dennis.
Just when I thought I was OUT you guys drag me back IN.
Dennis Noward0 -
micron wrote:Not at all - I would never claim the superior knowledge of the tactical geniuses of this board :roll:
Arkibal, take this as you wish, but you always come across as a tennage boy to me
and you come across as a teenage girl to me.....
My daughter acted the way you sound when she was 14
That you can't handle a civil debate, well, speaks volumes.0 -
The civility of launching personal attacks on people who disagree with your viewpoint rather escapes me, I'm afraid. It's an unfortunate feature of the argument of certain posters who feel honour bound to defend their heroes by personally attacking other posters. I'd be quite happy to debate 'civilily' with either yourself or Moray but that cuts both ways. Making a personal comment about a poster is not analogous with continuing a debate about whether a rider deserves his favourite status or not.
Personally, I think it says a lot about the sport when a rider with Leipheimer's modest palmares, at the age of 37, suddenly becomes a hot favourite for a GT win (I've even seen posters describe him as the next Double winner), apparently posited entirely on the fact that he can TT a bit better and hang on the wheels a bit better than X or Y.
I'd be really interested, Arkibal and MG, to hear why you think he's the next big thing. It may be that, when debated civilly and without the personal insults, we'd have common ground.0 -
Levi is 35.0
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micron wrote:The civility of launching personal attacks on people who disagree with your viewpoint rather escapes me, I'm afraid. It's an unfortunate feature of the argument of certain posters who feel honour bound to defend their heroes by personally attacking other posters. I'd be quite happy to debate 'civilily' with either yourself or Moray but that cuts both ways. Making a personal comment about a poster is not analogous with continuing a debate about whether a rider deserves his favourite status or not.
Personally, I think it says a lot about the sport when a rider with Leipheimer's modest palmares, at the age of 37, suddenly becomes a hot favourite for a GT win (I've even seen posters describe him as the next Double winner), apparently posited entirely on the fact that he can TT a bit better and hang on the wheels a bit better than X or Y.
I'd be really interested, Arkibal and MG, to hear why you think he's the next big thing. It may be that, when debated civilly and without the personal insults, we'd have common ground.
are you serious?
check some facts first...
and curious, what's the reason you are following cycling?0 -
Horner can ride at the level he is now for 2 or even 3 seasons more...it's not age but number of years already spent near max training, pro tour level racing, that lifestyle, that wear out a rider...hence Indurain a basket case at 32, Bugno by 30...Levi L not sure...he's been maintaining that level very long now IMO so will get worn out sooner than Horner
the years they have used up at the highest level deteremine performance level drops as much as age , no? http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... /may17news
think Lemond who cited health reasons. Fignon top, Indurain just pulls off on the road and says no more...psychological maybe?0 -
Arkibal wrote:[
are you serious?
check some facts first...
and curious, what's the reason you are following cycling?
You see, its answers like that and failure to engage in debate, that makes you come across like some angry teenager, not a man approaching retirement.
Do really hate Astana critics, that much?
Micron asks you to debate LL's qualities that suggest he's a GT winner and you say check some facts.
That hardly constitutes a sound argument.
That's denying the ball is even in your court, but whatever you choose to say, must be taken as fact.
We all realise you follow a specific team and it's top riders and thats fine.
But that's not following cycling, btw.
It's also fine to dislike the same team and said riders.
For my part, I will asume you are referring to his form of these past two seasons and leave it at that."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Dave_1 wrote:
think Lemond who cited health reasons. Fignon top, Indurain just pulls off on the road and says no more...psychological maybe?
Lemond later found out the "health reasons" were nonsense and it was basically because everyone else was tooled up.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
micron wrote:The civility of launching personal attacks on people who disagree with your viewpoint rather escapes me, I'm afraid. It's an unfortunate feature of the argument of certain posters who feel honour bound to defend their heroes by personally attacking other posters. I'd be quite happy to debate 'civilily' with either yourself or Moray but that cuts both ways. Making a personal comment about a poster is not analogous with continuing a debate about whether a rider deserves his favourite status or not.
Personally, I think it says a lot about the sport when a rider with Leipheimer's modest palmares, at the age of 37, suddenly becomes a hot favourite for a GT win (I've even seen posters describe him as the next Double winner), apparently posited entirely on the fact that he can TT a bit better and hang on the wheels a bit better than X or Y.
I'd be really interested, Arkibal and MG, to hear why you think he's the next big thing. It may be that, when debated civilly and without the personal insults, we'd have common ground.
Well - you clearly have it out for the Astana riders, but so be it.
Levi is 35, not 37. Not that it makes a huge difference.
Lance won his last Tour at the age of 35 - so why can't Levi win one now? As I have previously shown, he has consistently placed well in the big Tours and has slowly improved over the years. He has often ridden in support of OTHER riders and has not been the team leader for a GT.
Now he is the leader with other riders supporting him. He has always been able to climb and is a GREAT TT rider - something that often wins GT.
I think he can and will win the Giro - based on his TT skills. But he won't win the Tour. Contador will.
Your critiques of Astana riders and Levi have been pretty vague and almost childish also. While not launching personal attacks - just saying a rider is boring doesn't add much to the debate - especially when you keep getting your facts wrong.0 -
He was team leader for both Rabobank and Gerolsteiner before we went back to Discovery/Astana.Pokerface wrote:Well - you clearly have it out for the Astana riders, but so be it.
Levi is 35, not 37. Not that it makes a huge difference.
Lance won his last Tour at the age of 35 - so why can't Levi win one now? As I have previously shown, he has consistently placed well in the big Tours and has slowly improved over the years. He has often ridden in support of OTHER riders and has not been the team leader for a GT.
His results in the Tour were;
2002 8th
2003 DNF
2004 9th
2005 6th
2006 13th
2007 3rd
He was team leader in all of those bar 2007, where Astana went in with a policy of supporting the strongest rider, which turned out to be Contador.
I'd argue that he's been a solid, GC rider but not one who has ever threatened to win a major 3 week Tour unless he's riding for Team Bruyneel. I'll make my own conclusions from that, which I'm sure you can work out for yourself.
Stating that I think he is boring is a matter of opinion. I base this on my view that he follows other riders in the mountains and makes up time in time trials. This is a valid tactic but one that doesn't make for exciting racing.0 -
Arkibal, why do I follow the sport? Because one day when I was about 4 my beloved grandad took me to meet my great uncle who was marshalling a bike race in yorkshire. Ifell in love with it then though didn't start to follow properly until I was 13. My grandad told me later, when I was properly into the sport, that I had met Tom Simpson that day though I don't recall him particularly in the throng of riders. Later we used to take holidays with the hope of seeing a Tour stage and when I lived in France I was in cycling heaven - I even got involved with organising racing locally (including the area championships) and hosting young riders from the UK who were riding with local teams - going the Duffield route.
Have I justified myself enough now?
As for Leipheimer, apologies for getting his age wrong but not sure that that invalidates the link I posted to his palmares.I still think there's a valid debate to be had about why certain riders for certain teams suddenly assume favourite status but no one seems willing to engage with that so I'll move on. As for his winning the Giro being a shoe in, he made a huge mistake on yesterday's stage - both Di Luca and Menchov reporting that they assumed Leipheimer must not be feeling confident for the TT. It hasn't gone unnoticed that there's plenty of descending in the long TT and that Leipheimer isn't a great descender - thus certain riders are wondering whether Leipheimer's 'dominance' on that stage is as foregone a conclusion as had been assumed.
Did I move the debate on enough there in a suitably 'adult' fashion?
Vino says that the KF will pay up by Monday - what does the forum make of that, in the3 context of this thread?0 -
I think Levi is a boring rider. I think Cadel is a boring rider (IMO).
Of course, my opinion means nothing. If a rider's objective is to win the Giro or the TdF and they achieve it, then I'm sure they'll be delighted.
I don't think Levi or Cadel would give a damn how they won.
That said, I think Levi will win this Giro, and I don't think he'll do it just by sucking wheels the whole time. He will make his presence felt during the ITT.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:Arkibal wrote:[
are you serious?
check some facts first...
and curious, what's the reason you are following cycling?
You see, its answers like that and failure to engage in debate, that makes you come across like some angry teenager, not a man approaching retirement.
Do really hate Astana critics, that much?
Micron asks you to debate LL's qualities that suggest he's a GT winner and you say check some facts.
That hardly constitutes a sound argument.
That's denying the ball is even in your court, but whatever you choose to say, must be taken as fact.
We all realise you follow a specific team and it's top riders and thats fine.
But that's not following cycling, btw.
It's also fine to dislike the same team and said riders.
For my part, I will asume you are referring to his form of these past two seasons and leave it at that.
yes, that was a very weak post from my part, it was very late here....
First , micron says LL is 37, which is not correct.
Secondly, he has all the qualities to be a GT winner, he can climb and TT with the best, those qualities makes one a GT winner.
Thirdly, he has 3 GT podiums already, so he knows what it takes to get there.
If micron thinks LL is a boring rider, nothing wrong with that. But saying he is not a possible GT winner, well, I disagree with her.
I have nothing against Astana critics, but that seems to be most popular theme here, with often not bothering about the facts, as micron just proved by saying LL is 37.0 -
micron wrote:Vino says that the KF will pay up by Monday - what does the forum make of that, in the3 context of this thread?
Well, I think Vino is showing who wears the trousers. And if they pay up, he does. KF own the licence, own the team. At the end of the day, if they pay up and sort it out JB and LA don't have a leg to stand on.
What I'm curious about is what's happened since this interview
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... /nov25news
Bruyneel said that, "When he's done his suspension, I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be able to ride for Astana."
As now he's saying there's not a spot?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
micron wrote:Arkibal, why do I follow the sport? Because one day when I was about 4 my beloved grandad took me to meet my great uncle who was marshalling a bike race in yorkshire. Ifell in love with it then though didn't start to follow properly until I was 13. My grandad told me later, when I was properly into the sport, that I had met Tom Simpson that day though I don't recall him particularly in the throng of riders. Later we used to take holidays with the hope of seeing a Tour stage and when I lived in France I was in cycling heaven - I even got involved with organising racing locally (including the area championships) and hosting young riders from the UK who were riding with local teams - going the Duffield route.
Have I justified myself enough now?
As for Leipheimer, apologies for getting his age wrong but not sure that that invalidates the link I posted to his palmares.I still think there's a valid debate to be had about why certain riders for certain teams suddenly assume favourite status but no one seems willing to engage with that so I'll move on. As for his winning the Giro being a shoe in, he made a huge mistake on yesterday's stage - both Di Luca and Menchov reporting that they assumed Leipheimer must not be feeling confident for the TT. It hasn't gone unnoticed that there's plenty of descending in the long TT and that Leipheimer isn't a great descender - thus certain riders are wondering whether Leipheimer's 'dominance' on that stage is as foregone a conclusion as had been assumed.
Did I move the debate on enough there in a suitably 'adult' fashion?
Vino says that the KF will pay up by Monday - what does the forum make of that, in the3 context of this thread?
I apologize for my post last night, everyone here shares the passion for the sport, that's obvious so my post was out of line.
You are probably right, LL's attacks yesterday seemed strange to say the least.
As for Vino, well, I hope the guy shuts up and never returs. Enough with these comebacks.0 -
When I say Levi will make up any time in the TT - I'm not referring to the 61KM one. I'm referring to the final one 16KM on eon the last day - which will be a TRUE TT.
The 61KM one will be, like many people say, more like a mini road race or individual crit.
Levi may just win the whole thing on the last day.
As for his tactics yesterday - I suspect he's been on the forum, read the comments about him being a boring rider that never sticks his nose out, and decided to do something to change that perception!0 -
Pokerface wrote:When I say Levi will make up any time in the TT - I'm not referring to the 61KM one. I'm referring to the final one 16KM on eon the last day - which will be a TRUE TT.
The 61KM one will be, like many people say, more like a mini road race or individual crit.
Levi may just win the whole thing on the last day.
As for his tactics yesterday - I suspect he's been on the forum, read the comments about him being a boring rider that never sticks his nose out, and decided to do something to change that perception!
Do you think Levi will make up more time during a 16 KM TT than he could gain / lose on a 61 km TT?
There will be some big gaps on Thursday.0 -
I think the problem for me is simply that I don't think boring riders deserve to be GT contenders - which is somewhat different to acceptinbg that they are legitimate GT contenders
And I couldn't agree more about 'comebacks' - enough already. Let the sport move on and let the new kids shine. I used to love talking to the lads who'd come over to take their first steps on the ladder to turning pro - one of them eventually got a spot on Luc Leblanc's development team but just didn't have the legs (and is now an estate agent :shock: ). But I think the cynicism of some teams - of course, judging only on what they put out there in terms of PR, twitters etc - works against that passion for me.
It seems more and more lilkely that the idea that the KF have withheld finances to force JB to accept Vino on the tea and to develop the Kazakh riders (the original remit). Vino and his backers now firmly call the shots - it'll be interesting to see just how quickly McQuaid feels he can turn round a brand new PT license for Team ??0 -
SpaceJunk wrote:Do you think Levi will make up more time during a 16 KM TT than he could gain / lose on a 61 km TT?
There will be some big gaps on Thursday.
Personally I don't think he'll lose any/much time on the long TT. And think he'll make up any loses on the final day. But yes - there will be some huge gaps on Thursday and will no doubt all but decide the race.0 -
micron wrote:As for Leipheimer, apologies for getting his age wrong but not sure that that invalidates the link I posted to his palmares
Just to be clear - what exactly is your point regarding his palmares? Do you feel he isn't 'qualified' to win a GT? Too old? Are you implying he is doping because he is now considered a contender? (He's been considered a contender every year - he just never lives up to it).
What exactly is your beef?0 -
This is such a complicated issue.
Imagine if you were a sponsor and signed a 2 or 3 year deal. Sure, things start out all rosie, but JB comes in a dramatically changes the roster - putting more 'foreigners' on. Now sponsor X may be upset with this; they want 'locals'. Why should our money go elsewhere.
Then there's the argument that the sponsors are just withholding money to blackmail Vino's return.
And then there's JB. I'm not a fan, but I can understand why he is running the team this way; bring back the Disco boys; it puts him in his comfort zone.
What a mess!0 -
The time gaps in the final TT of a stage race are invariably small, due to the accumulated tiredness all the riders have. With a TT of just 15 kms I'd be surprised if Leipheimer gains more than 30 seconds on any of the other contenders.Pokerface wrote:SpaceJunk wrote:Do you think Levi will make up more time during a 16 KM TT than he could gain / lose on a 61 km TT?
There will be some big gaps on Thursday.
Personally I don't think he'll lose any/much time on the long TT. And think he'll make up any loses on the final day. But yes - there will be some huge gaps on Thursday and will no doubt all but decide the race.0 -
Probably because Bruyneel realises he'd be an employee of Vino, that the team would be beyond his control, whether financially or in terms of staffing.iainf72 wrote:What I'm curious about is what's happened since this interview
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... /nov25news
Bruyneel said that, "When he's done his suspension, I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be able to ride for Astana."
As now he's saying there's not a spot?0 -
Bye bye Astana. This can't come quick enough - their sky blue and yellow kit and the Trek spoil all the cycling photos. Very unsightly.
We need the best GT rider in the world (Contador) to look as stylish as his riding which means him riding in better kit and a european bike. In addition he needs team members that can ride by his side in the mountains, not those who get dropped on Cat2 climbs. (How Astana would want Poppo after seeing his total lack of support for Cadel in the TdF 08 speaks volumes).
Vino was Astana and everything went downhill after his demise.
As for Leipheimer. Although he isn't a Contador, I repsect him as he is modest, is not a big talker and does perform consistently. Similar to Sastre in that respect (who I am beginning to like more). Personally I just ask that Levi doesn't take his helmet off and all is fine.Contador is the Greatest0 -
I wouldn't pay too much attention to the pics of Vino bleeding. It's probably not even his blood pouring out of his wounds...Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.0
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Nice to see the debate is moving on in a constructive and civilized manner.
While Levi's attack, yesterday, was a bit of a strange affair, I say hats off for livening up the stage.
I know some of us, me included, bemoan the stages that appear very formulated.
Yesterday, mainly due to Astana, had me on the edge of my seat.
Maybe he and the team has become sensitised to the "negative" or "dull" labelling, who knows? Anyhow, lets have more, when the race hits Central Italy, I say.
Now, on Levi himself. Has he shown the potential to endure a GT and come out a winner?
Based upon what we have seen over the past two years, it is a distinct possiblity.
I have picked him to take this Giro on another forum.
So, why the sceptism? I think much of it boils down to his perceived ability to ITT everyone else into the ground.
Based upon his results since rejoining Bruyneel, there appears little doubt.
However, consider this.
In 2006, he won the Dauphine Libere, then climbed with the best at the Tour.
However, he was over 6 minutes down in both of the Tour's long ITT's.
He is a rider that can, or at least used to, have bad days.
To me, yesterday, he looked to have been put under a bit of pressure, not least, from his own team mate, Chris Horner.
Astana look super strong alround, but at the moment Horner looks the pick of the bunch.
Will he be allowed to ride the ITT flat out, though, I wonder......"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
andyp wrote:
He was team leader for both Rabobank and Gerolsteiner before we went back to Discovery/Astana.Pokerface wrote:Well - you clearly have it out for the Astana riders, but so be it.
Levi is 35, not 37. Not that it makes a huge difference.
Lance won his last Tour at the age of 35 - so why can't Levi win one now? As I have previously shown, he has consistently placed well in the big Tours and has slowly improved over the years. He has often ridden in support of OTHER riders and has not been the team leader for a GT.
His results in the Tour were;
2002 8th
2003 DNF
2004 9th
2005 6th
2006 13th
2007 3rd
He was team leader in all of those bar 2007, where Astana went in with a policy of supporting the strongest rider, which turned out to be Contador.
I'd argue that he's been a solid, GC rider but not one who has ever threatened to win a major 3 week Tour unless he's riding for Team Bruyneel. I'll make my own conclusions from that, which I'm sure you can work out for yourself.
Stating that I think he is boring is a matter of opinion. I base this on my view that he follows other riders in the mountains and makes up time in time trials. This is a valid tactic but one that doesn't make for exciting racing.
3rd in 2001 Vuelta, and again very consistent as you point out...the EPO test comes in and he's still good..blood passport up and running AND he's still good, didn't use CERA by the looks of it...no chance you will give him the benefit of the doubt? He deserves a little more -but agree Bruyneel as manager is no great sign of being a clean rider as he will almost certainly have blood doped at ONCE. Also, AC only good once with JB so...you are saying both dubious?0 -
micron wrote:
And I couldn't agree more about 'comebacks' - enough already. Let the sport move on and let the new kids shine.
I think the word comeback is strictly a media invention to sell copy, although I have definately had just about enough of the word and I think most people would agree.
I don't, however, agree with "move on and let the new kids shine". Why should someone give up what they like doing simply because some "new kid" comes along? If it was me,
well, you're going to have to contend with me until I don't want to do it anymore. It's as simple as that. If you find something that you really love doing are you going to just walk away because some kid says he wants your job? I don't think so.
Dennis Noward0
