Bye bye Astana?

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  • mattsy666
    mattsy666 Posts: 91
    and Mr GaGa ... your point is?
  • stagehopper
    stagehopper Posts: 1,593
    edited May 2009
    What is often overlooked in the Olympic track story is how most national teams with a tradition of success woefully underperformed - many of these nations are putting in much better times this season than they did in Olympic year with younger, less experienced riders.

    In general the British times weren't exceptional but they were professional and built around three riders with longstanding successful careers at the highest level on the track. Wiggins, Hoy and Pendleton who won individually or were team leaders for 6 of the 7 gold medals - the other gold medal was the women's indivdual pursuit where the times were 4 seconds slower than Athens.
    @stagehopper
  • mattsy666
    mattsy666 Posts: 91
    2 or 3 strong guys/women don't make the other members fo the team into winners ... just ask Milram/Pittachi/Zabel ... or to get back on topic Astana/Disco/USPS ...
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    mattsy666 wrote:
    and Mr GaGa ... your point is?

    My point is you are clearly ignorant and throwing around unfounded accusations based solely on the fact that the British team performed well.

    I actually had the pleasure of working with these athletes at British Cycling and while I was not privy to what every single one of them was doing 24 hours a day, I can assure you that their performances are based mostly on hard work. Throw in some great coaching, superior equipment and a little luck and you have the makings of what was an outstanding Olympic year.

    Not a single British riders has even had a whiff of controversy surrounding them. Not a single suspect dope test test and it is only jealousy by other countries that cries of 'they couldn't have done it clean' are heard.

    Add on top of that the fact that the track cycling world is very small and competition is not in the same league as the pros. In track cycling you are only really competing at the top level against 3 or 4 riders at the most in any event - whilst in the pros - there are dozens (if not more) riders that can win on a given day.


    Lastly - 2 or 3 exceptional riders DO make the others of the team into better riders. Not only are many events TEAM events - but training with and competing against better riders, day-in and day-out will make any rider better.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Pokerface wrote:
    Not a single British riders has even had a whiff of controversy surrounding them. Not a single suspect dope test test and it is only jealousy by other countries that cries of 'they couldn't have done it clean' are heard.

    You mean aside from too high HCT's?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    iainf72 wrote:
    Pokerface wrote:
    Not a single British riders has even had a whiff of controversy surrounding them. Not a single suspect dope test test and it is only jealousy by other countries that cries of 'they couldn't have done it clean' are heard.

    You mean aside from too high HCT's?

    Rob Hayles? If so - wasn't there a valid reason for that? And let
    's face it - Hayles isn't exactly burning up the track - is he?

    Or did you mean someone else?
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    Matty - you seem to be confusing pro road racing with track cycling.

    If the brits were doping - then they would have destroyed everyone on the road too. They didnt.
  • mattsy666
    mattsy666 Posts: 91
    cougie wrote:
    Matty - you seem to be confusing pro road racing with track cycling.

    If the brits were doping - then they would have destroyed everyone on the road too. They didnt.

    i'm not confusing anything ... merely pointing out that Mr Brailsford (from track cycling) should not be used as some yardstick of cyclings code of ethics when it comes to him building a road team ... if his results from the track come into the pro peleton then questiosn would be asked ... look what happened on this forum regarding CSC this autumn ... some hard work and pretty lucky tactics and they were all branded a bunch of cheaters ... esp. Cancellara in most people's eyes ... the couldn't wait to put the boot in ...

    someone who shall not be named said there were no miracles in sport ... you can work out the rest ...
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    I think track cycling is a back water, look at the medal winners in the pursuit: Wiggins, Roulston and Burke. Wiggins is a respect TT specialist but Roulston is merely a low-rated domestique and Burke is, so far, a total nobody. I reckon you could take many unheralded French domestique from Bouygues or Cofidis and make them into an Olympic medallist if you trained them full time for it.

    Anyway, if Brailsford has links to Hayles and Sciandri, there is little else. The staff at Astana are not just linked to suspicious or convicted cheats, they have been directly involved.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Back on topic

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/ ... 6-16-01-23
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Armstrong his usual charming self, I see :roll:

    However, he does highlight his major problem - Bruyneel does not hold the Astana PT license and, with Vino coming back, it seems highly unlikely that the Kazakhs will just hand it over. They've already seen their team hijacked and their riders marginalised.

    So what options exist? If McQuaid has issued a new PT license under the table then he'll be on a very sticky wicket - and there are UCI leadership elections coming up. But if the Kazakh's don't hand it over as Armstrong demands then there will have to be a transition period where a decision iks made about issuing a new license.

    I hear the new sponsor is Trek/SRAM and this was a done deal at ToC. That license might prove more of a sticking point, though.

    Whatever happens, McQuaid will need to tread very carefully otherwise some awkward questions are going to be asked about how certain decisions get made.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    There's a comment on LA's Twitter about the above article. It seems the possibility of a team losing it's license for not being able to fulfill it's financial obligations is news to him.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    They've changed the article since Armstrong commented on it. His comment was referring to a line, which now looks to be gone, that Armstrong was having trouble finding sponsors.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,711
    micron wrote:
    However, he does highlight his major problem - Bruyneel does not hold the Astana PT license and, with Vino coming back, it seems highly unlikely that the Kazakhs will just hand it over. They've already seen their team hijacked and their riders marginalised.

    Now see, that's what I thought. The Astana coalition got the licence from Pat in 2006.
    Nevertheless, CN was reporting yesterday, the JB owned the licence.

    I wonder how he managed to get his hands on that, or is this another case of inaccurate reporting from CN?
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Inaccurate reporting - Armstrong is widely reported to be saying they should hand the license over to Bruyneel. He reminds me of Madonna and her adoption battle - not used to hearing the word 'no'. Rumour says Vino has rejoined Astana which means the Kazakhs are more unlikely than ever to just hand over the license because Armstrong says so.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    "Maybe the situation gets resolved, and the guys start getting their dough," Armstrong said. "Otherwise, I think the license ought to be transferred to (team director) Johan (Bruyneel), and we try and start a team in the middle of the season."

    Demanding the licence owners sell up if they can't afford to pay the riders? How unreasonable...
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    If the sponsors can't pay, it makes sense for the employees and management to buy out the licence if they want to. But a process like this is fraught with a massive conflict of interest.

    There are potential financial gains for the likes of Armstrong and Bruyneel, they have a vested interest in trashing the reputation of the Kazakh backers. They ought to be taking a back seat and watching the dust settle, not agitating.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Also, buying out to keep it going for 6 months is not helpful IMO. If you come up with a longer term solution, fine. The riders should be given the chance to break their contracts and jump ship if they want to.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • mattsy666
    mattsy666 Posts: 91
    iainf72 wrote:
    Also, buying out to keep it going for 6 months is not helpful IMO. If you come up with a longer term solution, fine. The riders should be given the chance to break their contracts and jump ship if they want to.

    you seem desperate for the team (or the majority of it) to disband/go elsewhere ... if Contador leaves he'll end up another Cadel ... good rider, slight lack of focus, crap team support (riders and management) ...
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Contador was locked into a contract by Bruyneel while they denied Lance was coming back. Would Bertie have signed up to that deal if he'd known? Probably not.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • mattsy666
    mattsy666 Posts: 91
    iainf72 wrote:
    Contador was locked into a contract by Bruyneel while they denied Lance was coming back. Would Bertie have signed up to that deal if he'd known? Probably not.

    he signed his contract way before LA was even thinking about a comeback ... and was happy to be gifted the Vuelta by his own team mate (and then be ungrateful about it in the press) ... so he might get a taste of his own medicine ... his paycheck will stil be the same ...
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Leipheimer gifted the Vuelta to Contador - clearly I was watching a different race :roll:
  • LangerDan
    LangerDan Posts: 6,132
    mattsy666 wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    Contador was locked into a contract by Bruyneel while they denied Lance was coming back. Would Bertie have signed up to that deal if he'd known? Probably not.

    he signed his contract way before LA was even thinking about a comeback ... and was happy to be gifted the Vuelta by his own team mate (and then be ungrateful about it in the press) ... so he might get a taste of his own medicine ... his paycheck will stil be the same ...

    Lance was in discussions with Bruyneel about a comeback as early as February of last year, but no announcement was made until Contador had signed.
    'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    http://livestrongblog.org/2009/05/07/re ... ivestrong/
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,711
    LangerDan wrote:
    Lance was in discussions with Bruyneel about a comeback as early as February of last year, but no announcement was made until Contador had signed.

    Shades of Bertie Heras there, methinks.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    The UCI have told the Kazak federation they have until 31/05 to sort out the teams finances or they will be suspended.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • andy_wrx
    andy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    Suspended on the 31/5 or after the 31/5 ?

    If it's on the 31/5, what date does the Giro finish ? :lol:
  • secretsqirrel
    secretsqirrel Posts: 2,043
    Bruyneel thinks they will be able to finish the Giro in the 31st :shock:

    Interesting quote from Mr. A on Cycling News:-

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... may12news2

    "I've already said that all I know about Kazakhstan is Astana and Borat. I don't know anything more," Armstrong told the Guardian.

    Could someone explain to him that if he has seen Borat, he should have learned more about America than Kazakhstan :lol:
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    SecretSqirrel wrote:
    Bruyneel thinks they will be able to finish the Giro in the 31st :shock:

    Interesting quote from Mr. A on Cycling News:-

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... may12news2

    "I've already said that all I know about Kazakhstan is Astana and Borat. I don't know anything more," Armstrong told the Guardian.

    Could someone explain to him that if he has seen Borat, he should have learned more about America than Kazakhstan :lol:

    Probably, but he was stating what he knew about Kazakhstan, not America...
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • secretsqirrel
    secretsqirrel Posts: 2,043
    DaveyL wrote:
    Probably, but he was stating what he knew about Kazakhstan, not America...

    You are right.

    He was demonstrating his ignorance about Kazakhstan.

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