Bye bye Astana?

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  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    You would've thought Cancer-Man [tm] would've been interested in a country with the highest incidence of cancer in central Asia.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • secretsqirrel
    secretsqirrel Posts: 2,043
    iainf72 wrote:
    You would've thought Cancer-Man [tm] would've been interested in a country with the highest incidence of cancer in central Asia.

    I would have thought that. Might even have made a difference.

    Instead, he just wanted a ride on the Big Blue Bus, with guys who win.

    Talk about flag of convenience.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    SecretSqirrel wrote:
    I would have thought that. Might even have made a difference.

    Instead, he just wanted a ride on the Big Blue Bus, with guys who win.

    For all the talk of "I'm riding for free", he still expects the Kazaks to stump up to pay for all the infrastructure and team around him. And then he pretty much turns on them.

    Still, it appears he's only really interested in 1'st world countries. And the US (ha, that's just a little joke for Aurelio)
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,485
    iainf72 wrote:
    Still, it appears he's only really interested in English speaking 1st world countries. And the US (ha, that's just a little joke for Aurelio)
    Fixed.
  • Quite Frankly
    Quite Frankly Posts: 386
    If they do make it through to the Tour or get a new sponsor on board in time a possible line-up could be:

    Contador
    Leipheimer
    Armstrong
    Kloden
    Horner
    Popovych
    Brajkovic
    Noval
    Vaitkus

    Scary :shock:
  • don key
    don key Posts: 494
    iainf72 wrote:
    missingmillar wrote:
    Team Nike anyone?

    I know you can change sponsors mid-season (a la High Road last year) but not sure how much or the current management team has to be in place to maintain it's current license.

    High Horse remain the license holders so there is no actual change there

    Nike is extremely unlikely as they don't sponsor team in other sports. Plus they were killing their cycling line, weren't they?

    I have their horts and they are hit shot, shame Hance waj part of it as if I knew he was
    making a scum back I would have gracelessly declined.
  • SpaceJunk
    SpaceJunk Posts: 1,157
    Quite Frankly wrote:
    If they do make it through to the Tour or get a new sponsor on board in time a possible line-up could be:

    Contador
    Leipheimer
    Armstrong
    Kloden
    Horner
    Popovych
    Brajkovic
    Noval
    Vaitkus

    Scary :shock:

    Scary? More likely to be ho-hum.

    As good a team as that is (on paper at least), once Astana works out who's captain, they will all ride for that person. I reckon even Kloden could finally win the Tour with that squad.

    I think Contador IF at the top of his game, will be abeatable at the TdF, even without that team.

    I reckon it would be a whole lot more fun to see Contador vs LA vs Levi Vs Kloden (you get the picutre).

    Or better still, I'm hoping that there is a major fall-out in Astana during the Tour. 1/2 team side with Bertie, the other 1/2 with LA or Levi and the 'two' Astana teams battle it out against one another.

    Now that would be entertainment.
  • secretsqirrel
    secretsqirrel Posts: 2,043
    iainf72 wrote:
    For all the talk of "I'm riding for free", he still expects the Kazaks to stump up to pay for all the infrastructure and team around him. And then he pretty much turns on them.

    Still, it appears he's only really interested in 1'st world countries. And the US (ha, that's just a little joke for Aurelio)

    Ha Ha! I wonder I the RT Hon Gentleman claims expences?

    That might explain why the contingency fund is empty even before the 1st GT has started :wink:

    As for Frankly's dream team
    Contador
    Leipheimer
    Armstrong
    Kloden
    Horner
    Popovych
    Brajkovic
    Noval
    Vaitkus

    The Kazakh sponsors must be wondering why bother. Having read a few of the items on the Sports KAZ link from Iain's opening post, there have been rumblings about the fact that the young Kaz riders are not getting enough exposure.
  • Quite Frankly
    Quite Frankly Posts: 386
    SpaceJunk wrote:
    Quite Frankly wrote:
    If they do make it through to the Tour or get a new sponsor on board in time a possible line-up could be:

    Contador
    Leipheimer
    Armstrong
    Kloden
    Horner
    Popovych
    Brajkovic
    Noval
    Vaitkus

    Scary :shock:

    Scary? More likely to be ho-hum.

    As good a team as that is (on paper at least), once Astana works out who's captain, they will all ride for that person. I reckon even Kloden could finally win the Tour with that squad.

    I think Contador IF at the top of his game, will be abeatable at the TdF, even without that team.

    I reckon it would be a whole lot more fun to see Contador vs LA vs Levi Vs Kloden (you get the picutre).

    Or better still, I'm hoping that there is a major fall-out in Astana during the Tour. 1/2 team side with Bertie, the other 1/2 with LA or Levi and the 'two' Astana teams battle it out against one another.

    Now that would be entertainment.

    I agree with all of that but when I said ''scary'' I meant that possible Astana/New Sponsor team was a scary proposition to the rest of the teams riding the Tour because it would dramatically reduce their chances of winning in Paris.
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Why? Most of that team are past it and Kloeden's off on 2 year's holiday. Astana haven't looked particularly impressive all season and won virtually nothing, signally failing in the really big 1 week stage races.

    The issue of the lack of exposure for the Kazakh riders will be key, I think. Does anybody know what the UCI rules actually are about the PT license - if a team is suspended, can the license simply be transferred?
  • Quite Frankly
    Quite Frankly Posts: 386
    micron wrote:
    Why? Most of that team are past it and Kloeden's off on 2 year's holiday. Astana haven't looked particularly impressive all season and won virtually nothing, signally failing in the really big 1 week stage races.

    The issue of the lack of exposure for the Kazakh riders will be key, I think. Does anybody know what the UCI rules actually are about the PT license - if a team is suspended, can the license simply be transferred?

    Apart from Armstrong, there's nobody in that team that's ''past it''. And even an over the hill Armstrong could well be a strong domestique by the time the Tour comes around. Ok, Kloeden is almost certain to not be there, but someone like Navarro is a very handy domestique to bring into the squad.

    Horner is a super domestique and Popo has looked pretty strong so far in the Giro. Then you've got two of the top five GC riders on the planet in Contador and Leipheimer.

    It's an extremely strong unit, daft to suggest anything else really.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    micron wrote:
    Why? Most of that team are past it and Kloeden's off on 2 year's holiday. Astana haven't looked particularly impressive all season and won virtually nothing, signally failing in the really big 1 week stage races.

    Astana aren't really a 'Classics' team. They are built around stage racers.

    True - Alberto bonked and ended up 4th in Paris-Nice, but that's still pretty damn good. Tour of California wasn't a gimme either.

    They have a realistic shot at the Giro (podium finish certainly) and are a cert for the Tour.

    Saying they haven't looked impressive isn't perfectly accurate unless you look at the types of races they aim to win.
  • Quite Frankly
    Quite Frankly Posts: 386
    Pokerface wrote:
    micron wrote:
    Why? Most of that team are past it and Kloeden's off on 2 year's holiday. Astana haven't looked particularly impressive all season and won virtually nothing, signally failing in the really big 1 week stage races.

    Astana aren't really a 'Classics' team. They are built around stage racers.

    True - Alberto bonked and ended up 4th in Paris-Nice, but that's still pretty damn good. Tour of California wasn't a gimme either.

    They have a realistic shot at the Giro (podium finish certainly) and are a cert for the Tour.

    Saying they haven't looked impressive isn't perfectly accurate unless you look at the types of races they aim to win.

    Yup, I should have said all of that too.

    A One, Two finsh at the Vuelta a Castilla y Leon wasn't too bad either.
  • gabriel959
    gabriel959 Posts: 4,227
    Contador has also won the Volta ao Algarve and the Vuelta al Pais Vasco.
    x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
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  • Quite Frankly
    Quite Frankly Posts: 386
    gabriel959 wrote:
    Contador has also won the Volta ao Algarve and the Vuelta al Pais Vasco.

    Yup, a ''past it'' team if ever there was one.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,711
    I just wonder if the Kloden report will offer the Kazakh fed an opportunity for a bit of leverage?
    We've all seen this coming, with the German.
    Never mind that they brought him in, in the first place.
    The irony being, if JB doesn't act and act quickly, he's giving Vino's backers a possible avenue for removal.

    Bet we will see a quick response.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    New kit!

    http://www.velonews.com/article/92036/

    Let's hope they aren't going for a lame duck motif his time
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Quite Frankly wrote:
    gabriel959 wrote:
    Contador has also won the Volta ao Algarve and the Vuelta al Pais Vasco.

    Yup, a ''past it'' team if ever there was one.

    Don't forget the glorious 1-2 in the Tour of the Gila. What a commanding performance that was.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    afx237vi wrote:
    Don't forget the glorious 1-2 in the Tour of the Gila. What a commanding performance that was.


    "The Thrilla at the Gila" 8)
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    The team will live on. Perhaps a few Kazakhs will be sent packing at the end of the year but it appears that a smooth transition is being planned. They already ride Treks with SRAM and use Giro helmets and Nike clothing.

    Discovery pulled out as early after they got an insider tip off about Bruyneel's ways but there will be new sponsors who don't mind. After all, if Fuji-Servetto can find a place on the Pro Tour...
  • sicrow
    sicrow Posts: 791
    Kléber wrote:

    Discovery pulled out as early after they got an insider tip off about Bruyneel's ways...

    Go on spill the beans - which ways ?
    http://www.action.org.uk/sponsor/simoncrowther
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    It sounds like they're sorted for a sponsor etc.

    Unless the Kazak's cough up some money conditional on Vino getting a ride. Sack Klodi, empty berth, pop Vino in and done deal.

    Also sounds like contador might hop ship...
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    sicrow wrote:
    Go on spill the beans - which ways ?
    You can determine the methods for yourself. Just remember how Bruyneel broke the Pro Tour ethics code in signing Basso, he was the first to ditch the code.
    iainf72 wrote:
    Also sounds like contador might hop ship...
    There should be a space at Caisse d'Epargne soon.
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Sorry, but if Astana are so far and above any other team they should be dominating absolutely every stage race they enter and, as far as the biggest one week races are concerned, they snatched defeat from the jaws of victory twice. The fact that Contador finished 4th at P-N was entirely due to his own efforts rather than a great team (they were all at T-A losing that race as well). Now they have 2 thirty seven year olds climbing like riders 10 years younger - on anybodys smell test that's whiffy.

    The new kit showcasing new sponsors could be the worst decision Armstrong has made - he's clearly trying to force the Kazahk Federation's hand into giving up the license but why should they? They've already watched the team stolen from under them and their riders totally sidelined, now they have their kit hijacked too? Wouldn't it be funny if they suddenly found the money and sacked Bruyneel and his cronies leaving team Armstrong with no PT license. No wonder Contador is finally jumping ship - Caisse will be a much better fit for his style.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Remember, some of us have long pointed out that they were created by political cronyism in a land where opposition politicians get "physically eliminated" and that the companies were puppets of Kazakh state capitalism that surfed the commodities boom. Now the economy has been shrinking and the political will has changed, it's the end of the team. It was never a sustainable outfit.

    So it's fine for a team facing financial collapse to find new sponsors. Personally I don't think the likes of Bruyneel and Co. have a place in the future of cycling, they are gangsters from the past, whether their enforcement of omerta or their co-operation of Ferrari. But this is my pet concern, I'd like to see these guys make way for new people with fresher ideas instead. Yet many others will look the other way and on this basis, the team changing sponsors is fine.

    There is however a massive conflict of interest with Armstrong and Bruyneel able to destabilise the team in order to recoup a ProTour licence on the cheap. This can't be fixed in time but effectively management and staff can collude to shaft the owners of the outfit, something that sails close to the wind. Although to return to my original point, there's a tasty irony here whereby the Americans are giving the Kazakhs a lesson in dirty capitalism.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    micron wrote:
    Sorry, but if Astana are so far and above any other team they should be dominating absolutely every stage race they enter and, as far as the biggest one week races are concerned, they snatched defeat from the jaws of victory twice. The fact that Contador finished 4th at P-N was entirely due to his own efforts rather than a great team (they were all at T-A losing that race as well). Now they have 2 thirty seven year olds climbing like riders 10 years younger - on anybodys smell test that's whiffy.

    It's interesting that the latest edition of CycleSport magazine ranks Astana as the number one team in stage races for the past month.

    With the exception of P-N, where Contador had no team support, he has won every stage race he has entered (except Castilla y Leon where he came second to teammate Levi). When they bring their big guns - they dominate.

    If they don't get podium in the Giro and win the Tour (if they keep the same line-up), then come back and slate them.

    As for how Armstrong and Levi can climb - no surprise as they are 2 of the best riders in the world. At any age. You obviously assume that they must be doping just because they can ride. Typical.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    I don't understand how Armstrong and Bruyneel are "hijacking" the team. If the team's owners don't have the money to pay the riders, and to keep the team going, surely someone else can step in and take over? LA and JB wouldn't be my choice but who better to carry on in the originally intended manner.

    All this could be ended by the sponsors coughing up the money they signed up for. In fact, I guess they could probably give Bruyneel the boot if they wanted, buy him out of his contract and have someone more pliable in his place.

    Of course, all this could have been avoided if the two guys they built the team around in the first place, hadn't got their hands caught in the cookie jar...
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    As soon as Armstrong joined the team he hijacked it's intention - to promote Kazakhstan and its riders - with his cancer awareness campaign. The Kazakh riders are virtually never seen and certainly aren't part of the supposed Astana 'superteam'.

    Astana send 'big' teams to small races - my argument is that the races they've actually won are not the big week long stage races but the small stuff, whereas other 'big' teams have managed to show well over a variety of disciplines. Funny how the Tour of California becomes a huge race because an Astana rider wins it instead of a week long orgy of crit racing without a credible MTF. Likewise, Leipheimer becomes one of the world's greatest stage racers when all he's ever won are things like the aforementioned ToC and stood on the podium in an under par Vuelta - and all this at the age of 35 when he joins Astana.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,485
    If your team's success is based on the success of Leipheimer, Horner and Armstrong then I think the phrase 'past it' is more than apt. You'll get a maximum of one more season out of those three.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    micron wrote:
    Likewise, Leipheimer becomes one of the world's greatest stage racers when all he's ever won are things like the aforementioned ToC and stood on the podium in an under par Vuelta - and all this at the age of 35 when he joins Astana.

    Dude - seriously? Get your facts right before slating a rider.

    Levi has come 12th, 8th, 9th, 6th, and 3rd in the Tour de France - 2nd and 3rd in the Vuelta - 3rd twice and 1st once in the Dauphiné.

    A lot of those results were him riding in support of other riders also, so he didn't have the chance to go for the win himself.

    He isn't the BEST stage racer in the world (Contador arguably is), but he certainly is one of the best.

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