Vino tested positive for blood doping

iainf72

Oooof - Merckx comments

Five-time Tour winner Eddy Merckx:

"This new scandal has left me K.O.'d. Since the start, they talked only of doping on Belgian television. And now, I learn that Vinokourov has played with his blood and that he's leaving. It might be a good thing. We know now that it's difficult to cheat and those who break the rules are caught. But, for me, that's the end of cycling. And, I hope, the start of other things."

Eurostar

pedalpower wrote:

Makes Bradley Wiggins place in that timetrial look very very impressive.

You also wonder whether whats happened to Moreau is what would have happened to all the riders if they weren't doping

This is the real tragedy of the situation - just imagine what kind of careers the clean riders might have had if they hadn't been beaten by the dopers? How many stages could Obree have won if his career hadn't been wrecked by his refusal to dope?

I have no patience with the attitude that we should have a level playing field by letting them all dope.What about all the racers who die young? What about those like Zabel who don't respond well to the drugs? What about those that value their health too much to poison themselves? The idea of sportsmen being filled to the gills with powerful pharmaceuticals for our entertainment is just disgusting.

bipedal

This all raises the further questions:

why on earth, given how dodgy Astana have always seemed, were the UCI so quick to give them a Protour slot? It never made any sense to me... why weren't Astana made to prove themselves clean as a Continental team before being whisked into the protour ahead of other teams that have been waiting years?

And if ASO were so desperate for a clean scandal free tour why not exert their prerogative and not award Astana a wild-card?

Ste_S

iainf72 wrote:

Oooof - Merckx comments

Five-time Tour winner Eddy Merckx:

"This new scandal has left me K.O.'d. Since the start, they talked only of doping on Belgian television. And now, I learn that Vinokourov has played with his blood and that he's leaving. It might be a good thing. We know now that it's difficult to cheat and those who break the rules are caught. But, for me, that's the end of cycling. And, I hope, the start of other things."

Come on Eddy, why so surprised and upset ?

PeteinSQ

Yes, you have to feel sorry for those riders who don't take drugs. Those who get caught should have all of their prize money confiscated and the UCI should sue them for the damage that they do to the image of ths sport.

aba2005

Is there anyone who knows what this test for blood doping actually shows and what constitutes a positive test?

I'm looking at the evidence and I can't believe he would be stupid enough to dope like that.

First let me say that I believe that ALL GC contenders have doped at some point.

Now lets look at the evidence: Vino wanted to make a comeback and win the Tour De France. To achieve this aim, he would have to win or come in the top 3 in quite a few stages, which would mean an automatic drug test. With all this knowledge he and his doctors have he decides to use a doping method that would be detectable for 120 days, and then proceeds to win two stages in three days, giving the testers two opportunities to catch him. So are we to believe that Vino and his doctors which include Ferrari, who according to some users of this forum is a doping expert, made such a stupid mistake or that there is some valid explanation for the test.

Also he has the unbelievably bad day in the middle of this. Surely blood doping does not wear of that quick.

Since he lost some blood in the accident won't he have been developing new red blood cells which would look different from the ones in that where there.

Using someone elses blood by accident seems the only way it could be believable but as someone said he would have to be extremely lucky to end up with the right blood type instead of dead.

Maybe i'm being naive but I can't believe that someone who can buy the best medical advice would be that dumb.

Stark.

Vino protesting his innocence is just grotesque. Since when did having 'too much blood in your thighs' create a condition that makes it appear you have someone else's blood running in your veins.

Ain't it spooky that he just happened to get these anomalies in his blood after two of the most extraordinary stage performances ever seen on the Tour.

iainf72

aba2005 wrote:

Is there anyone who knows what this test for blood doping actually shows and what constitutes a positive test?

I'm looking at the evidence and I can't believe he would be stupid enough to dope like that.

Possibly a mistake? ie, he planned on using his own blood but got it wrong.

A positive would be showing mixed population cells - New "young" cells are normal and would be identified in the tests.

aba2005

iainf72 wrote:

aba2005 wrote:

Is there anyone who knows what this test for blood doping actually shows and what constitutes a positive test?

I'm looking at the evidence and I can't believe he would be stupid enough to dope like that.

If thats how the test works then he is a FOOL. The thing about the mistake though is that it had a high possibility of being fatal.

Possibly a mistake? ie, he planned on using his own blood but got it wrong.

A positive would be showing mixed population cells - New "young" cells are normal and would be identified in the tests.

pedalpower

we had all these discussions over Tyler and never got to the bottom of it. There must be someone in the know who could cast some light. I wondered whether they use the homologous positive to frame people they're sure are using autologous doping but can't prove it (The Astana thing was such a joke from beginning to end).
With Hamilton Santi Perez soon tested postiive to it seemed as if maybe they had mixed their blood. I suspect though that Vino could easily enough get a poor Kazakh to give him some blood and get it checked and everything. Although the chances of rejection are still high I believe.
Maybe he thought he had someone on the inside who would fiddle his tests or something.

pat1cp

How long would it be for the transfusion to dissapear ???? I don't know but this is the only series of events I can make any sense of.

Friday night:- Vino "I need to do something or I wont make Paris".

Saturday:- Time trial, Vino went off, what ? 25th from last ?? Maybe he was just riding for a top 5 finish and inadvertantly over cooked it and ended up winning and therfore getting tested. If he'd had finished say 3rd, no test.

Sunday:- Feeling sick cos he new his career was finished.

Monday:- Ah well, might as well go out in a blaze of glory.

Dorian Gray

aba2005 wrote:

Also he has the unbelievably bad day in the middle of this. Surely blood doping does not wear of that quick.

After his mountain stage win, he mentioned in a post-race interview that it was his mind that had let him down rather than his legs on the bad day before. Perhaps he had an attack of conscience after winning the TT? Perhaps he half-knew the game was up while awaiting the results of the TT blood test? Maybe he was nervous to the point of agitation about the forthcoming results of the blood test, so couldn't concentrate on racing? Anything is possible. For certain Vino was under an almost unbelievable amount of mental stress on that bad day. Even if he hadn't been doping the stress would have been crazy, and doping must add hugely to that mental burden -- especially doping with someone else's blood.

Anyway, every time a rider is caught doping the cry goes up: "But how stupid would he have to be to have doped in that way/on that day/in these circumstances?!" Yet they do. These riders are ultra-competitive people (or they wouldn't have got where they are), they think (with some justification) that they need to dope to secure their job, and probably after doping for ages and getting away with it, a mentality sets in that the tests are nearly useless and one is invincible.

I also think some of these riders probably convince themselves that blood doping with their own blood isn't really cheating, as they've created the doping product with their own bodies.

jimmythecuckoo

andyp wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Vino denies.

http://www.newspress.com/Top/Article/ar ... 9458695201

He's the victim here.

That's superb. Too much blood in his thighs. You couldn't make this shit up could you? :roll:

so because I am slow does that mean I need more blood in my thighs :?:


The thing that sickens me the most about all this is that riders who we can assume are clean like Sylvain Chavanel are mocked (and I have been guilty of that on the old procycling forum) for their lack of results when in reality they have no chance of winning,

jibi

He did have too much blood in his thighs!!!

From the tests it seems it was just someone else's blood there.

george

floatman

I have made a number of assumptions and I am no expert on any of this and fully expect to be shot down in flames but I wanted to clarify the situation in my own head and this seems to be quite a good way of getting feedback!!

If I understand it correctly .. there is no possible way of telling if someone has doped with their own blood save for looking at what a normal ratio of red blood cells to plasma would be and furthermore there is unlikely ever to be a test which can tell if a particular red blood cell is fresh or “reheated” from frozen with any degree of reliability. Thus the doping authorities set a point where a ratio above which they would consider to be unnatural and thus evidence of blood doping. Now I would presume that to be able to accommodate natural variances in human physiology this “normal” ratio would have to be set relatively high.

I also presume that if done under proper sanitary conditions blood transfusions using one’s own blood is perfectly safe.

Therefore if it is undetectable, advantageous and safe, is there not an overwhelming incentive to use blood doping to bring their own ratio to just below the “legal limit”. If so how can we ever trust that the peloton is clean.

It has been said many times on this forum that the only possible explanation for Vino’s positive (aside from stupidity on a grand scale) is that he got the wrong batch of blood. If all had gone smoothly he would have topped up to the legal limit and all would have been fine. So it is less a triumph of the doping controls working as a disastrous failure of the Astana team’s labelling systems. But as all the blood must be stored in secret somewhere and code labelled to hide its true origins that may not be so surprising.

So I put it to the forum - that in the solitary and unique case of doping with one’s own blood to reach a maximal pre-set limit a certain pragmatism should be employed and the legality of the procedure be reviewed.

pedalpower

Dorian Gray wrote:

Anyway, every time a rider is caught doping the cry goes up: "But how stupid would he have to be to have doped in that way/on that day/in these circumstances?!" Yet they do. These riders are ultra-competitive people (or they wouldn't have got where they are), they think (with some justification) that they need to dope to secure their job, and probably after doping for ages and getting away with it, a mentality sets in that the tests are nearly useless and one is invincible.

Yes but they must think they're going to get away with it or they wouldn't bother. Maybe there are masking agents involved with the homologous transfusion or something and these failed to work.

bigdawg

as I understand it reinjecting 'fresh' blood would be apparent because of the fact it is fresh and not tatty old two week tour blood and would stand out a mile.. .

I think this is what a t-mobile rider was caught out with prior to the tour..

ricadus

Meanwhile the news in Kazakhstan is... nothing.

There has been no word in the Kazakh media that Mr Vinokourov has tested positive for blood doping.

Neither is there any mention of the fact that his team, Astana, has withdrawn from the race.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-p ... 915221.stm

Greggyr

now looks like he failed on Monday too.....according to L'Equipe via cycling post

pat1cp

floatman wrote:

I have made a number of assumptions and I am no expert on any of this and fully expect to be shot down in flames but I wanted to clarify the situation in my own head and this seems to be quite a good way of getting feedback!!

If I understand it correctly .. there is no possible way of telling if someone has doped with their own blood save for looking at what a normal ratio of red blood cells to plasma would be and furthermore there is unlikely ever to be a test which can tell if a particular red blood cell is fresh or “reheated” from frozen with any degree of reliability. Thus the doping authorities set a point where a ratio above which they would consider to be unnatural and thus evidence of blood doping. Now I would presume that to be able to accommodate natural variances in human physiology this “normal” ratio would have to be set relatively high.

I thought they could detect doping, even with your own blood, I might be wrong cos' I usually am. :oops:

iainf72

"pat1cp wrote:

I thought they could detect doping, even with your own blood, I might be wrong cos' I usually am. :oops:

No. T-Mobile are doing blood volume tests to look for volume changes, but AFAIK, you can't detect their own blood.

Salsiccia

floatman wrote:

So I put it to the forum - that in the solitary and unique case of doping with one’s own blood to reach a maximal pre-set limit a certain pragmatism should be employed and the legality of the procedure be reviewed.

Very interesting, but isn't this still artificially improving your performance? Where the line is drawn though is a difficult one; surely having vitamin injections to bring depleted stores back to normal is an artificial improvement of performance, yet it is routine and permitted. However, some doctors advocate the use of hormone replacement for riders to bring their hormone levels back to normal, and as it stands that is not permitted.

In my opinion anything done with blood being removed and then put back in is manipulation and should not be permitted.

However, in my opinion, something done to bring the body back to a pre-determined, 'normal' healthy level, perhaps even including hormone replacement, should be permitted. After all, isn't that what we do when we eat and drink?

pedalpower

bigdawg wrote:

as I understand it reinjecting 'fresh' blood would be apparent because of the fact it is fresh and not tatty old two week tour blood and would stand out a mile.. .

I think this is what a t-mobile rider was caught out with prior to the tour..

As I understand it they can probably spot it but can't actually find the rider guilty unless it homologous blood. T-mobile and CSC tests show signs of blood tampering which wouldn't be enough for the UCI to find a rider guilty. Hence the testers have a good idea of who's doing what even if they can't find them guilty. Which is why I wonder if they set out to frame them.

Interesting what Bradley had to say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_s ... 914924.stm
I wonder if he has his supsicions about Cancellera thumping him in the prologue as well (23seconds over 8km is equivalent to over 2.5 minutes over 54km), or whether that was partly due to better cornering technique.

Dorian Gray

pat1cp wrote:

I thought they could detect doping, even with your own blood, I might be wrong cos' I usually am. :oops:

No, it can't be detected. This is what Basso, Armstrong, Ullrich, etc. were doing, probably for years.

aba2005

pedalpower wrote:

I wondered whether they use the homologous positive to frame people they're sure are using autologous doping but can't prove it (The Astana thing was such a joke from beginning to end).

That thought crossed my mind, i said earlier in the thread that maybe they framed what they saw as a 'guilty man'

pedalpower

pedalpower wrote:

bigdawg wrote:

as I understand it reinjecting 'fresh' blood would be apparent because of the fact it is fresh and not tatty old two week tour blood and would stand out a mile.. .

I think this is what a t-mobile rider was caught out with prior to the tour..

As I understand it they can probably spot it but can't actually find the rider guilty unless it homologous blood. T-mobile and CSC tests show signs of blood tampering which wouldn't be enough for the UCI to find a rider guilty. Hence the testers have a good idea of who's doing what even if they can't find them guilty. Which is why I wonder if they set out to frame them.

Interesting what Bradley had to say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_s ... 914924.stm
I wonder if he has his supsicions about Cancellera thumping him in the prologue as well (23seconds over 8km is equivalent to over 2.5 minutes over 54km), or whether that was partly due to better cornering technique.

What I meant is that the volume testing of CSC and T-mobile give a pretty good idea, as would regular haematocrit readings. Which may be why certain people became so determined to discredit Armstrong by leaking the EPO details they shouldn't have.

Salsiccia

Another failed test just mentioned on L'Equipe - an anonymous rider, this time for exogenous testosterone.

pat1cp

pat1cp wrote:

How long would it be for the transfusion to dissapear ???? I don't know but this is the only series of events I can make any sense of.

Friday night:- Vino "I need to do something or I wont make Paris".

Saturday:- Time trial, Vino went off, what ? 25th from last ?? Maybe he was just riding for a top 5 finish and inadvertantly over cooked it and ended up winning and therfore getting tested. If he'd had finished say 3rd, no test.

Sunday:- Feeling sick cos he new his career was finished.

Monday:- Ah well, might as well go out in a blaze of glory.

Ok, I'm gonna revise me series of events based on what I've learnt in the last half hour:-

Friday Night in Vino's room:-

Vino:- "Hook me up Cash and lets get this TT won in the morning"
Cash:- "No probs Boss, promise you'll do me after, this one's yours and the other one's mine"
Vino:- " Hey, Cash, make sure you don't get em mixed up"

Vino goes on to win TT.

Sunday afternoon word gets back that there has been a positive.

Vino:- "But if I returned a positive then.....that must mean..........woh Cash......come back, you cant win or you'll get tested"

So result is, they don't know who's had what so they all pack up and go home.

pat1cp

floatman wrote:

So I put it to the forum - that in the solitary and unique case of doping with one’s own blood to reach a maximal pre-set limit a certain pragmatism should be employed and the legality of the procedure be reviewed.

So, on that basis Vino's rides on Saturday and Monday were still great, he didn't have a real advantage over the rest. It's just he dropped a clanger and got someone elses juice instead ????

bigdawg

Salsiccia wrote:

Another failed test just mentioned on L'Equipe - an anonymous rider, this time for exogenous testosterone.

any idea who..??