Vino tested positive for blood doping

aba2005

:x

RichN95.

Cathryn wrote:

Are there any clean riders we can support? I heard Contador's anti-drugs?

I genuinely believe Cadel Evans is clean - he's often referred to dopers as 'cheats', which isn't the sort of language dopers usually use. For this reason I don't mind if he wheelsucks.

But maybe I'm being gullible

(I know he was at T-Mobile for two years - but the management seemed to inexplicably ignore him most of the time, which makes me more convinced.)

justyn_c_uk

The worst things is that as I watched the highlights last night I said to my wife how Vino's performance reminded me of Floyd, good stage, bad stage, good stage, failed test. I'm so gutted because I thought it was an awesome ride yesterday.....

aba2005

Doesn't make sense though! Even if you are doping, why would you be sooooo stupid? Maybe the authorities decided to 'frame a guilty man'?!!! Yes, I know, clutching at straws. But is doping so deep in cycling that someone would dope so blatantly? I can't imagine an athlete ever doping so stupidly.

cooper.michael1

Im with David Millar on this one, the sport is doomed....the last 2 years have been too much.

dave_1

My guess is Vino has been target tested e.g. Hamilton was specifically singled out for blood testing at the Vuelta 04, not the top 3 on the stage...so my guess that they have been watching Vino for a while and that this test will have been deployed aiming for him rather than blanket testing the jerseys. top 3 etc. I remember the UCI mentioning that hey had some riders on their radar 2 months back, so perhaps they had Vino target tested, The whole Astana team should be grounded and in court. This is France and it's criminal so vino may end up in court. Vino and kloeden have the connection of the T Mobile years too. Ullrich has indicated he will speak soon. Where does this leave Michele Ferrari? I didn't want to see Astana in the TDF and am glad they are gone and the proof is there

rdaviesb

May we never see Vino ride again. A two year ban is not enough. He knew the rules, he understood today's context, and I don't ever want to see him a race again. He is a disgrace.

mandie

Dave_1 wrote:

My guess is Vino has been target tested

Possibly Dave, but he would have been tested as a matter of course after winning the stage - just like Floyd Llandis last year

squired

On that basis I'm removing all 3 Astana riders from the time trial results, giving Bradley 2nd place last Sunday. Well done Bradley - one place higher this Saturday hopefully!

Langenberg

Always on the assumption that he is clean, can you imagine how he must feel?

red_tom

Classic text from my wife -

omg. Team Borat are out.

shazzz

Informed by the Astana management, the organisers of the Tour de France invited the team to withdraw, which was immediately accepted.

I love the language - it sounds like they're off to a party.

iainf72

Shocked but not surprised is my reaction. Gutted it happened during the Tour.

I reckon he's probably using some kind of animal blood extract or something.

peejay78

ooh look, laser guided melodies.

sorry for the off post comment.

still freaked out and gutted.

worried that the black chicken is next.

xio

why does the Astana code of ethics mean the whole team withdraws, but not the one for T-Mobile?

On the positive side, Barloworld must be greasing palms for a pro tour licence as we speak.

Jeff Jones

Timoid. wrote:

andyp wrote:

I bet Rasmussen is delighted - that takes the heat off him for a few days.

Timoid - you forget to include a certain American who dominated the Tour for a bit. He was a client of Dr Ferrari's too, no? Just like Vino.

Nope. Haven't forgotten him, but he doesn't have a recognised dope test failiure or a pending investigation. So technically he's legit.

I should add the Tour winners of 96 (EPO), 97 (EPO/Puerto) and 98 (elevated hct/charlie) as well as Giro 98 ((elevated hct/charlie), 00 (roids), Vuelta 02 (EPO) to the list.

Plus the finishers of the tour that have been shown to have doped.

2nd: 96, 97, 98, 99, 00, 01, 03, 05
3rd: 96, 97, 02, 03, 04, 05
4th: 96, 99, 01, 02, 03, 04, 05
5th: 00, 01*, 02*, 05

Not sure if I GdG counts. Elevated hct and a whif of roids, but no bans if I recall correctly

There's a French website (sorry, url escapes me now) that has details of riders implicated in doping affairs over the years. They have a list of Tour de France podium finishers and it doesn't look pretty. If you go back to 1967, when drug testing was first introduced, you can only find two winners who weren't implicated in some sort of doping affair (tested positive or other) during their careers, ie they might not have tested positive during the Tour, but they did some other time.

The two: Greg LeMond and Lucien Van Impe.

On one level that's somewhat depressing, but on another it's hardly surprising. Cycling existed for 70 years without testing, so doping became deeply ingrained into the sport (and I would guess in all high profile sports). And after testing was introduced, it wasn't that difficult to get around so there was no real reason to stop doping. But as we've seen in recent years, testing has improved and that has gone hand in hand with a shift in mentality.

If the anti-doping movement continues - and I think it will - then things will go towards a cleaner sport. But it is going to take years to get there. Another 40 years? I don't know.

The problem is, even if it ends up 99% clean, the dopers are still going to float to the top, looking for any way, any loophole to get around the testing and trying to win the biggest races in the world. The testing has to be 100% bulletproof for it to have an effect. That's a much bigger deterrent than the severity of the sanction.

Regarding Vino, it's a sad way to (probably) end his career, but he probably thought he had nothing to lose. I'll miss his never say die attitude.

On a more positive note (sorry), I think it's a good sign that someone like Wiggins, whose anti-doping stance is refreshing, is doing so well. It's a sign that the sport is cleaning up, gradually.

Ste_S

Dave_1 wrote:

My guess is Vino has been target tested e.g. Hamilton was specifically singled out for blood testing at the Vuelta 04, not the top 3 on the stage...so my guess that they have been watching Vino for a while and that this test will have been deployed aiming for him rather than blanket testing the jerseys. top 3 etc. I remember the UCI mentioning that hey had some riders on their radar 2 months back, so perhaps they had Vino target tested, The whole Astana team should be grounded and in court. This is France and it's criminal so vino may end up in court. Vino and kloeden have the connection of the T Mobile years too. Ullrich has indicated he will speak soon. Where does this leave Michele Ferrari? I didn't want to see Astana in the TDF and am glad they are gone and the proof is there

Ullrich was trained by Cecchini, no ?

Jeff Jones

mike.brockhurst wrote:

Langenberg wrote:

What amazes me is not the fact that he has doped... but that he thought he would get away with such a primitive method!

If Astana leave the Tour, they are probably just worried that other cases come up.

The methods does smack of total desperation... he must have known he'd be caught, perhaps he fancied trying the vanishing twin defence?

Blood doping with one's own blood is ideal, because it can't be detected yet. But it's not always practical, because of the time it takes to recover. So boosting with someone else's blood is the next best option, even though it's bloody risky.

I wrote a feature on this for Cyclingnews a couple of years ago:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/avoid_positive

dave_1

I see the Gendarmars raided Astana's hotel today too..hope they did that before Astana were informed of the positive. Would surely be the best way to stop stuff going down the toilet.

iainf72

Astana spokesman said it was probably the end of the team.

Probably the same for T-Mobile because Vino's name will be linked to them too.

iainf72

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/Tou ... 31698.html

Prudhomme's comments.

fossyant

Words fail me.

Only last night did the Mayor of Astana say that Vino's team would be sponsored for at least 10 years...... what idiots the riders/management are.

aba2005

jjones wrote:

mike.brockhurst wrote:

Langenberg wrote:

What amazes me is not the fact that he has doped... but that he thought he would get away with such a primitive method!

If Astana leave the Tour, they are probably just worried that other cases come up.

The methods does smack of total desperation... he must have known he'd be caught, perhaps he fancied trying the vanishing twin defence?

Blood doping with one's own blood is ideal, because it can't be detected yet. But it's not always practical, because of the time it takes to recover. So boosting with someone else's blood is the next best option, even though it's bloody risky.

I wrote a feature on this for Cyclingnews a couple of years ago:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/avoid_positive

but it doesn't make any sense when it is so easy to get caught especially when he was likely to do well in the time trial. Are we to assume he was that stupid or was there any possible for him to avoid testing positive?

dave_1

Indeed it is a little surprising that Vino would use someone elses blood which would leave him highly vulnerale for taget testing over the next 6 weeks as it takes 6-8 weeks for the donors blood go away...this much I remember from the Hamilton case...it doesn't dissapear overnight

RichN95.

xio wrote:

why does the Astana code of ethics mean the whole team withdraws, but not the one for T-Mobile?

On the positive side, Barloworld must be greasing palms for a pro tour licence as we speak.

Astana Code of Ethics

Rule 1: At the first sign of trouble - RUN!

Rule 2: There is no rule 2

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

squired

Of course, assuming he is guilty it is always possible that he accidentally infused blood from another member of the team, leading to the positive. It would be interesting for them to test the rest of the Astana team before they depart.

Jeff Jones

aba2005 wrote:

jjones wrote:

Blood doping with one's own blood is ideal, because it can't be detected yet. But it's not always practical, because of the time it takes to recover. So boosting with someone else's blood is the next best option, even though it's bloody risky.

I wrote a feature on this for Cyclingnews a couple of years ago:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/avoid_positive

but it doesn't make any sense when it is so easy to get caught especially when he was likely to do well in the time trial. Are we to assume he was that stupid or was there any possible for him to avoid testing positive?

It does seem stupid, yes. But there was a lot at stake: for Vino, it was his chance, in his final Tour, to get back into contention after his crash. Athletes will take ridiculous risks like this.

Another possibility is that he meant to use his own blood but got the wrong bag by mistake.

liversedge

jjones wrote:

There's a French website (sorry, url escapes me now) that has details of riders implicated in doping affairs over the years. They have a list of Tour de France podium finishers and it doesn't look pretty. If you go back to 1967, when drug testing was first introduced, you can only find two winners who weren't implicated in some sort of doping affair (tested positive or other) during their careers, ie they might not have tested positive during the Tour, but they did some other time.

The two: Greg LeMond and Lucien Van Impe.

Lance Armstrong was/is clean - and how much does the sport need him right now? These are truly dark days - sponsors for today and the stars of tomorrow are not going to emerge and the sport will be seriously damaged over the longer term. I am so f***ed off with it all.

dave_1

Vino will lose his years salary as per the agreement. So, it will hurt a little...but really, he should e down the local police station now and put in the cells till he's ready to talk.