Vino tested positive for blood doping

sing_for_absolution · July 2007

Contador clean? Plateau de Beille finishing times:

Armstrong 2002 = 45'43"
Armstrong 2004 = 45'30"
Contador 2007 = 44'08"
Pantani 1998 = 43'30"

Contador/Rasmussen weren't going 100% all the way up either. Sorry for this cynicism, but after today....

And is it true the French government might break up the ASO and run the Tour themselves?

Jeff Jones · July 2007

timjohndavey wrote:

I don't think that's true Jeff.

All transfusion blood is stored and anticoagulated. It takes about 12 -24 hours before the oxygen carrying ability of the chilled red cells becomes maximal as the rewarming intra cellular enzymes become reactivated. hence to boost his o2 carrying capacity it needs to be transfused 24 hours pre-stage

I got that info from a doctor who I assumed knew his stuff. Would transfusing just before the stage have any effect? In the latter parts of the stage perhaps? An rider's blood is going to be warmer than a normal person's during a Tour stage, so maybe that would speed up the activation process?

They could still transfuse the previous day, but that would be a lot riskier if they were blood tested the next morning.

And as other posters have pointed out, it's ironically a primitive cheap-skate way to dope. Then again if his stored blood was oozing testosterone ,he'd be less likely to want that stuff put back into his circulation.

Yes. Wouldn't his body then want to get rid of all the testosterone as quickly as possible? Enough to put him over the 4:1 limit in a urine test?

aba2005 · July 2007

iainf72 wrote:

aba2005 wrote:

since this type of doping is detectable for 120 days, shouldn't his sample for yesterday also be positive?

If is isn't what would that mean? Its not like he can take the blood out of his system.

They are testing it now and it expected to yield the same results.

If it doesn't, Vino is some kind of android who does complete blood replacements or the test doesn't work.

Hope it is negative which would mean the later.

If it is positive then, Jeff Jones' suggestion of using the wrong blood by accident seems very likely. I mean if he really used someone elses blood on purpose then it would be really dumb to give the testers two opportunities to catch him in three days, right?

iainf72 · July 2007

Class comment

Eric Boyer, Team Manager, (Cofidis):

"I feel sick. I hope that Vinokourov won't be a coward and deny everything. He said that he worked with Ferrari just for training plans. He always told us what a brave guy he is, that he is stronger than the pain, that the French ride behind everyone else because they are lazier. Now we see that he is a big bastard. These practices discredit all of cycling again."

afx237vi · July 2007

Is that Kimmage I hear?

Moose11 · July 2007

Someone mentioned this new American team, I too hope they get off the ground. They should be given immediate elite pro-tour status for next years tour in Astanas absence.

brad68 · July 2007

andyp wrote:

I bet Rasmussen is delighted - that takes the heat off him for a few days.

Timoid - you forget to include a certain American who dominated the Tour for a bit. He was a client of Dr Ferrari's too, no? Just like Vino.

Did Lance ever have a test come back positive?

Moose11 · July 2007

As far as I'm concerned Lance was clean. OK I have suspisious, it's hard not to, but he never tested positive, never missed tests, was never caught up in any major scandle.

shazzz · July 2007

brad68 wrote:

andyp wrote:

I bet Rasmussen is delighted - that takes the heat off him for a few days.

Timoid - you forget to include a certain American who dominated the Tour for a bit. He was a client of Dr Ferrari's too, no? Just like Vino.

Did Lance ever have a test come back positive?

No, he didn't.

Neither did Ullrich or Basso.
:? :? :? :?

jibi · July 2007

Moose11 wrote:

As far as I'm concerned Lance was clean. OK I have suspisious, it's hard not to, but he never tested positive, never missed tests, was never caught up in any major scandle.

I thought Pantani was clean
I thought Virenque was claen
I even thought Millar was clean

I believed Vino was clean

no more to say

george

SteveR_100Milers · July 2007

sing_for_absolution wrote:

Contador clean? Plateau de Beille finishing times:

Armstrong 2002 = 45'43"
Armstrong 2004 = 45'30"
Contador 2007 = 44'08"
Pantani 1998 = 43'30"

Contador/Rasmussen weren't going 100% all the way up either. Sorry for this cynicism, but after today....

And is it true the French government might break up the ASO and run the Tour themselves?

Same argument from the Francais de jeux team manager (cant remember his name but was reported on this sites news). I'm not at all surprised thia has happened, the difference in Vino's performances are way beyond a normal "good" and "bad" day. Jeff was it you that did the piece on rasmussen and the analysis of his average TT placing and average TT loss in minutes per Km over the winner. His TT last week as almost and order of magnitude improvement. Let's see if he is as good a flat course, where the form book should dictate he will not place highly.

Langenberg · July 2007

Speculation on German news programme 5min ago was that Vino was visited by his parents the weekend before (along the lines of 'Daddy, can you lend me a litre or two of your blood? I've got a cycle race on tomorrow...') and that the Astana hotel was next to a clinique for blood transfusions today or a few days ago. At this stage, no speculation seems fantastic enough.

Not sure what to think of all of this really.

HippyFergus · July 2007

iainf72 wrote:

Class comment

Eric Boyer, Team Manager, (Cofidis):

"I feel sick. I hope that Vinokourov won't be a coward and deny everything. He said that he worked with Ferrari just for training plans. He always told us what a brave guy he is, that he is stronger than the pain, that the French ride behind everyone else because they are lazier. Now we see that he is a big bastard. These practices discredit all of cycling again."

Ohhh, you see, I can never quite fall out of love with pro cycling. It may be bent all out of shape and then suddenly someone plays it so straight that it takes the breath away with a smile and a laugh and the big bastards can be forgotten for awhile (well until tomorrow and the fingers of accusations hover in the air, wavering towards the other big bastards in black).

timjohndavey · July 2007

jjones wrote:

timjohndavey wrote:

I don't think that's true Jeff.

All transfusion blood is stored and anticoagulated. It takes about 12 -24 hours before the oxygen carrying ability of the chilled red cells becomes maximal as the rewarming intra cellular enzymes become reactivated. hence to boost his o2 carrying capacity it needs to be transfused 24 hours pre-stage

I got that info from a doctor who I assumed knew his stuff. Would transfusing just before the stage have any effect? In the latter parts of the stage perhaps? An rider's blood is going to be warmer than a normal person's during a Tour stage, so maybe that would speed up the activation process?

They could still transfuse the previous day, but that would be a lot riskier if they were blood tested the next morning.

And as other posters have pointed out, it's ironically a primitive cheap-skate way to dope. Then again if his stored blood was oozing testosterone ,he'd be less likely to want that stuff put back into his circulation.

Yes. Wouldn't his body then want to get rid of all the testosterone as quickly as possible? Enough to put him over the 4:1 limit in a urine test?

Transfusion just an hour or so before the stage would NOT enhance his O2 carrying capacity. It has to be done 24 hours before you need it .

If you transfuse back doped blood eg containing drugs ( I believe that was the case with Landis-again such an unbelievably elemental mistake) the drug then equilibrates throughout the body in its usual way ( different drugs follow different profiles) and yes the high amount in the plasma , body tissues is reflected by urine concenrations.

Eurostar · July 2007

I wonder what the Kazakh president will have to say? "Off to the salt mines for you, my boy." If Astana folds up it will be interesting to see who hires Kloden and Kashechkin. I bet Kloden will get yet another roasting from the German press and quit the sport.

JonnyCash · July 2007

iainf72 wrote:

Class comment

Eric Boyer, Team Manager, (Cofidis):

"I feel sick. I hope that Vinokourov won't be a coward and deny everything. He said that he worked with Ferrari just for training plans. He always told us what a brave guy he is, that he is stronger than the pain, that the French ride behind everyone else because they are lazier. Now we see that he is a big bastard. These practices discredit all of cycling again."

Find myself actually agreeing with a Team Manager.... Never thought i'd say that!!!!

I suppose that is the next indignity the sport has to suffer.... Vino denying the undenyable and discrediting the sport further...... Lets hope he hasn't got any Frankenstein Twins lurking back in Kazahkstan! :roll:

His career is over anyway he may as well come clean and at least gain some respect from the cycling public for not taking everyone for idiots.... although we saw the way the Basso affair went!!!

timjohndavey · July 2007

Eurostar wrote:

I wonder what the Kazakh president will have to say? "Off to the salt mines for you, my boy." If Astana folds up it will be interesting to see who hires Kloden and Kashechkin. I bet Kloden will get yet another roasting from the German press and quit the sport.

I expect the president will be most upset that his kickback for the promised 10 years sponsorshhip current going rate (14 million Euros) may not happen...............

ricadus · July 2007

shazzz wrote:

Informed by the Astana management, the organisers of the Tour de France invited the team to withdraw, which was immediately accepted.

I love the language - it sounds like they're off to a party.

Rather like if someone punches someone else at a party and gets "invited to leave" by the host – i.e. "f*ck off and never come back here again".

Another hero to zero time. Everything Vino has achieved in the past 7 years will have a dirty great question mark now. :evil:

Ratkilla · July 2007

Words fail me. The level of stupidity of Vinokourov is astounding.
Anyway, I hope that this campaign to spray these roaches from the nest continues.
This is a time for clear heads and rational thought.
The higher the profile of the race the higher the profile of the cheats being caught.
The Men In Black thing is all politics. The MIB rider identities were known. There is no way that this story would have been leaked in the last few weeks unless there was going to be some form of targetted testing.
MIB was a warning to the cheats that their time was up. It was a prelude to cycling's Night of the Long Knives.
Whether MIB was a conspiracy between ASO/L'Equipe and the UCI we don't know.
But the sport will survive. It may evolve to be very different to what it is now. I don't think however it turns out we'll be discussing how great things were back in the good old days.
It's time to change and evolve.

ps Vino, you are a f**king clown!

SteveR_100Milers · July 2007

but at least he cheated with dignity....

iainf72 · July 2007

Astana to continue....

http://www.cyclingpost.com/team/article_005160.shtml

I bet they'll be welcome at that German race!

Ashley_R · July 2007

iainf72 wrote:

Astana to continue....

http://www.cyclingpost.com/team/article_005160.shtml

I bet they'll be welcome at that German race!

Co-sponsors with that pharmasutical company that produces EPO that sponsored the Tour of Georgia earlier this year perhaps?? :twisted:

Didn't used to like Vino in T-Mobile days, came round to him due to his style of riding, now can bog off for all eternity, biggest dissapointment since, ooh about this time last year

Worst part is Vino will still retire a millionaire regardless of any subsequent actions

LoveMyPaddyWagon · July 2007

I'm really disappointed tbh. Although I saw it coming.

Totally reminded me of Floyd to Morzine last year. Look at his 'comeback' and compare it with Vino's? Why in God's name did he do it, knowing full well he would likely be tested?? Was he just very brave or very stupid? Both surely.

And where does that leave Kloden? I was rooting for him too more than Vino, always having to wait for his inferior team leader. But then again, who's to say he aint at it (doping) too?

Yeah sure, I was hoping for a clean Tour this year and again, we have all been let down. But perhaps a tad naive of me to think that....

If Vino even trys to deny this, then what future does the sport hold? Have they no respect for their fans either?

How the hell can this be controlled or stopped?

Then there's Rasmussen. I sincerely hope he isn't. For his sake, the sport's sake and the fact I actually like the guy and would love to see him win.

I'm sick of it.

saisie · July 2007

Not a surprise. A team placing three of the top four in a Tour time trial is suspicious, too close to the old Gewiss type of performance.

cooper.michael1 · July 2007

sing_for_absolution wrote:

Contador clean? Plateau de Beille finishing times:

Armstrong 2002 = 45'43"
Armstrong 2004 = 45'30"
Contador 2007 = 44'08"
Pantani 1998 = 43'30"

Contador/Rasmussen weren't going 100% all the way up either. Sorry for this cynicism, but after today....

And is it true the French government might break up the ASO and run the Tour themselves?

Indeed i was at Plateau de Beille for the Armstrong performances, and im sorry but Contador and Rasmussen are not in the same class. Armstrong and Basso flew past in 2004, but looked like they were going hell for leather against each other (looked like it hurt) It certainly did not look that way on Sunday.

andy_welch · July 2007

aarw wrote:

comments from Millar:

http://www.velonews.com/vntv/?Art_ID=1350

Thanks for that link. I've had my doubts about Millar in the past but that was inspiring. A guy who loves the sport and is just flat out pissed off at what is going on. There is hope.

Cheers,

Andy

Mick Jagger · July 2007

I won't bother watching the rest of the Tour.

I'm sick of non cyclists asking me "what drugs are you taking".

Think I'll go back to mountain biking.....

the grinder · July 2007

jjones wrote:

timjohndavey wrote:

I don't think that's true Jeff.

All transfusion blood is stored and anticoagulated. It takes about 12 -24 hours before the oxygen carrying ability of the chilled red cells becomes maximal as the rewarming intra cellular enzymes become reactivated. hence to boost his o2 carrying capacity it needs to be transfused 24 hours pre-stage

I got that info from a doctor who I assumed knew his stuff. Would transfusing just before the stage have any effect? In the latter parts of the stage perhaps? An rider's blood is going to be warmer than a normal person's during a Tour stage, so maybe that would speed up the activation process?

They could still transfuse the previous day, but that would be a lot riskier if they were blood tested the next morning.

And as other posters have pointed out, it's ironically a primitive cheap-skate way to dope. Then again if his stored blood was oozing testosterone ,he'd be less likely to want that stuff put back into his circulation.

Yes. Wouldn't his body then want to get rid of all the testosterone as quickly as possible? Enough to put him over the 4:1 limit in a urine test?

Quite right, the likely time to transfuse is the evening before. That would give the transfused cells time to become metabolically active which is needed to get the benefit. If the only pre-stage test in the morning is a haematocrit/haemoglobin (am I right in that? - it's too short a time to get to an accredited doping lab) then this wouldn't detect transfusion other than by a difference of maybe 5% in the haematocrit. Not likely that would happen by chance! Also to have identified the probable benefit of a transfusion the team must surely have seen a fall in haematocrit over the previous few days and know that the transfusion wouldn't send the haematocrit > 50%. A pretty sophisticated system to still do stupid things within.

Autologous (own stored blood) transfusion runs the risk of other drugs previously used (eg: testosterone) being returned and subsequently detected in the urine. Potentially transfusion even of own blood can introduce a second population of cells of a different size which can be detected - when used for real patients (it is often deemed more risky than it is worth) blood is taken following stimulation with EPO and the cells are generally younger and larger. This would be particularly true compared to a rider losing form and getting less healthy producing fewer cells in the 3rd week of a Grand Tour.

In theory possible to find more than just testosterone in the urine after, might even find high EPO, synthetic EPO, corticisteroids, etc.

Earthbound · July 2007

sing_for_absolution wrote:
Contador clean? Plateau de Beille finishing times:

Armstrong 2002 = 45'43"
Armstrong 2004 = 45'30"
Contador 2007 = 44'08"
Pantani 1998 = 43'30"

Contador/Rasmussen weren't going 100% all the way up either. Sorry for this cynicism, but after today....

Indeed i was at Plateau de Beille for the Armstrong performances, and im sorry but Contador and Rasmussen are not in the same class. Armstrong and Basso flew past in 2004, but looked like they were going hell for leather against each other (looked like it hurt) It certainly did not look that way on Sunday.

Contador = pure climber
Rasmussen = pure climber
Pantani = pure climber
Armstrong = not a pure climber

Of course they're going to go up hill faster AND make it look easy.
If they weren't going hard how come no one else could follow?
If they weren't at 100% just how fast can they go??

What's with this 'if anyone can go faster than Armstrong they MUST be on drugs' attitude?

[/quote]

Noodley · July 2007

Surely those hoping Contador is the great 'clean' hope are not speaking about the same Contador who was linked with Fuentes (although he did deny treating him I suppose) and rode with Liberty Seguros and Astana before he moved to Discovery?

Vino tested positive for blood doping

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